• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Great Northern Carnet tickets - what am I being accused of?

Status
Not open for further replies.

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
I travel into London twice a week and have no real option but to use carnet cards.
As carnet cards cannot be refunded once any ticket is used, I date mine at the gate once I've committed myself to travelling (as that's the only real place I can make that decision). Recently the Cambridge train has being coming in on-time and rather than stand in the way of a crush-load of people, if I've spotted the gate-line staff have a date stamp, have asked them to stamp my yet un-dated ticket and allow me through to the other side of the gate out of the way, where I'd then complete the ticket, show the gate staff and proceed. I always have a pen with me.
This morning the Cambridge train was again on-time and I repeated the above. The gate staff said to me, this is the last time and that if I ask them again they'll take my details.
Were they just having a bad day or am I committing some kind of offence or being accused of doing something wrong?
It's bad enough being treated like a criminal with a carnet card most of the time as it is.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
They suspect you will not bother dating the ticket and re-use it, which would be a RoRA offence.

You must date a carnet ticket before you use it in any form, this includes passing any barrier. If you do not, you have passed the barrier without a valid ticket. This may or may not be a problem in itself depending if it is a Compulsory Ticket Area or not (signage will indicate if it is) but you can see why they might be suspicious.

Best thing is not to use Carnets at all until they are available on smart cards, they are the number one cause of problems in this subforum. But if you do you must make the decision (and thus date it) before passing the barrier.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,857
Location
Central Belt
Which station was this? Some are grumpy. Technically you should date the ticket before passing the barrier. That is it. If you do it in the stairs that is fine. As you say certain stations such as WGC reject carnets so staff begin to recognise users.

But certainly during in the worse of the disruption I wouldn’t date the ticket until on the bridge at WGC. But more confident to do it at home now.
 

K.o.R

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
658
They suspect you will not bother dating the ticket

But aren't they (the gateline staff) dating the ticket? I've never seen a carnet ticket but surely any mark like a date stamp would invalidate it for future re-use?

The old style date crimper seems the ideal tool for use.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But aren't they (the gateline staff) dating the ticket? I've never seen a carnet ticket but surely any mark like a date stamp would invalidate it for future re-use?

The old style date crimper seems the ideal tool for use.

The T&C require it to be dated using a specific type of pen in specific boxes. While the "gripping irons" may well sort of be dating it, they are not dating it as per the T&C and therefore it is not a valid ticket.

That said, in a practical sense it would actually be better that stations accepting them did have an old BR-style date stamp for passengers to use instead of a pen - far less chance of issues.
 

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
They suspect you will not bother dating the ticket and re-use it, which would be a RoRA offence.

You must date a carnet ticket before you use it in any form, this includes passing any barrier. If you do not, you have passed the barrier without a valid ticket. This may or may not be a problem in itself depending if it is a Compulsory Ticket Area or not (signage will indicate if it is) but you can see why they might be suspicious.

Best thing is not to use Carnets at all until they are available on smart cards, they are the number one cause of problems in this subforum. But if you do you must make the decision (and thus date it) before passing the barrier.
But the ticket is dated with their stamp - usually twice! Is this not good enough? I fail to see how a ticket would be of use even if I did put a different date on it (which I wouldn't).

To not use carnet tickets would mean paying nearly double and having to spend a lot time queuing if not using Key Go, which has its own drawbacks.
They really need to sort out a better system for workers like me that work from home on a regular basis.

If I'm going to be accused of some kind of fraud, I'll just stand in the way in future and block the dangerous area behind the gates!
 

K.o.R

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
658
That said, in a practical sense it would actually be better that stations accepting them did have an old BR-style date stamp for passengers to use instead of a pen - far less chance of issues.

Or a composting machine ;)

Or make them scratch-off panels, or you have to punch in the correct places to mark the date.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,857
Location
Central Belt
But the ticket is dated with their stamp - usually twice! Is this not good enough? I fail to see how a ticket would be of use even if I did put a different date on it (which I wouldn't).

To not use carnet tickets would mean paying nearly double and having to spend a lot time queuing if not using Key Go, which has its own drawbacks.
They really need to sort out a better system for workers like me that work from home on a regular basis.

If I'm going to be accused of some kind of fraud, I'll just stand in the way in future and block the dangerous area behind the gates!

The ink from the grip normally wipes off. I have never understood why they don’t grip both sides as the other side the ink stays.

They are a total pain in the rear. In particular at busy stations where you need to actually attract the attention of staff. But the savings are great.

The customer is in a no win situation. GTR assumes everyone using them is defrauding them but won’t investigate using smart card techniques to make everyone’s life better.

You can reuse the ticket even with the date on it. If you really want to do multiple journeys between the same points.
 

AmicableMan

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2018
Messages
14
GTR are looking to pilot a carnet type ticket on a smartcard, the issue here is that this can only be offered to peak time travellers. There is no product for off-peak carnets as yet.
 

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
I don't really understand your situation. Who gets to the station and only then decides to travel?

Why don't you complete it on arrival at the station?
When I set off from home the train will usually show as On Time, but by the time I get to the station it can easily be cancelled or worse, severe disruption can have developed. If this occurs only by talking to the platform / gate staff can I make a decision to travel or not (abort and walk home). It's not always obvious until you walk down the stairs to the platform (to the gates) that there is an issue. The ticket office is a further walk in the opposite direction, but they would usually refer you to the platform staff anyway.
 

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
When I set off from home the train will usually show as On Time, but by the time I get to the station it can easily be cancelled or worse, severe disruption can have developed. If this occurs only by talking to the platform / gate staff can I make a decision to travel or not (abort and walk home). It's not always obvious until you walk down the stairs to the platform (to the gates) that there is an issue. The ticket office is a further walk in the opposite direction, but they would usually refer you to the platform staff anyway.
On my return, I usually fill out my ticket before I get to the station as I usually have no option but to attempt to get home that day anyway.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
When I set off from home the train will usually show as On Time, but by the time I get to the station it can easily be cancelled or worse, severe disruption can have developed. If this occurs only by talking to the platform / gate staff can I make a decision to travel or not (abort and walk home). It's not always obvious until you walk down the stairs to the platform (to the gates) that there is an issue. The ticket office is a further walk in the opposite direction, but they would usually refer you to the platform staff anyway.

So do that, then complete the date on the ticket before passing the barrier?
 

NSB2017

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2018
Messages
49
Carnet tickets need to be brought into the modern age.

Given the crackdown on “pay when challenged” they seem to leave the door open to “have valid ticket only seconds before being challenged”.

Though that’s a general point, I’m not accusing the OP of acting dishonestly, this seems quite a specific and, I’m sure, frustrating situation.
 

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
So do that, then complete the date on the ticket before passing the barrier?
Most of the time I date my ticket then present it to the gate staff as the tickets rarely work in the barriers, so I don't even try nowadays. It's only when a train pulls in at the last minute and I'm stuck with crowds heading towards me that I've asked them to stamp my ticket first and let me though (as I've said I've always stood the other side and completed my ticket before showing them and walking away). I shall no longer do this if they are incapable of just saying "No" if this is not allowed and seem to be trying to entrap me into committing an offence on a technicality.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
When I set off from home the train will usually show as On Time, but by the time I get to the station it can easily be cancelled or worse, severe disruption can have developed. If this occurs only by talking to the platform / gate staff can I make a decision to travel or not (abort and walk home). It's not always obvious until you walk down the stairs to the platform (to the gates) that there is an issue. The ticket office is a further walk in the opposite direction, but they would usually refer you to the platform staff anyway.

Why dont you use one of the many apps and websites out there that will show you any disruption before you leave the house - granted if that all goes tits up by the time you get to the station then fair enough but its not like you cant check before you travel
 

gingerheid

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2006
Messages
1,490
I don't really understand your situation. Who gets to the station and only then decides to travel?

People who have to travel with GTR.

Now that things have got a bit better I drive to the station rather than cycle, so I have an alternative means of transport if by train isn't going to be the way...
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
If you buy a paper ticket and then abandon your journey because of disruption you can get a full refund I believe (I've certainly never had a problem in such circumstances). Can that not be applied to a Carnet in some way?
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
If you buy a paper ticket and then abandon your journey because of disruption you can get a full refund I believe (I've certainly never had a problem in such circumstances). Can that not be applied to a Carnet in some way?
How would it be? The passenger is expected to validate their ticket before passing through the barriers.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Most of the time I date my ticket then present it to the gate staff as the tickets rarely work in the barriers, so I don't even try nowadays. It's only when a train pulls in at the last minute and I'm stuck with crowds heading towards me that I've asked them to stamp my ticket first and let me though (as I've said I've always stood the other side and completed my ticket before showing them and walking away). I shall no longer do this if they are incapable of just saying "No" if this is not allowed and seem to be trying to entrap me into committing an offence on a technicality.

It certainly does seem typical of GTR revenue protection that instead of saying "no, you have to date it yourself before passing the barrier I'm afraid" they get accusatory. But that doesn't change the situation, which is that you have to date it yourself before passing the barrier.
 

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
If you buy a paper ticket and then abandon your journey because of disruption you can get a full refund I believe (I've certainly never had a problem in such circumstances). Can that not be applied to a Carnet in some way?
That would be nice. I don't trust GTR. I lost out on some of the additional industry compensation because Carnet cards are 'special'.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/t...ed/carnet-tickets/carnet-terms-and-conditions
"We can only offer a refund if you have a complete book of five or 10 unused Carnet tickets with consecutive numbers."

Mind you, that page also says "you’ll need to make sure that: you’ve dated your ticket with permanent ink before you get on the train". No mention of gates.
I've seen the gate staff accusing a woman who was asking for a pen to fill her carnet card of not intending to travel with a valid ticket as she didn't have the means on her to make it valid. I'm never without the approved sanctioned pen...
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
How would it be? The passenger is expected to validate their ticket before passing through the barriers.

Is answering a question with a question impolite? :s

If I turn up at the station using a conventional ticket, get to the platform to discover that a lineside fire has suddenly stopped all trains (happened to me last summer) I can return to the booking office, have the ticket cancelled, and the fare refunded.

Just wondering if something similar could be done for carnets.

Mind you, I dated a privilege travel "box" for a journey last week only for the train to expire after I'd passed the barrier and couldn't have that reversed so maybe not.

Perhaps carnets - given the issues they create - need to be scrapped.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,877
This morning the Cambridge train was again on-time
What is the relevance of the Cambridge train being on time? We usually see complaints about trains being late.
"We can only offer a refund if you have a complete book of five or 10 unused Carnet tickets with consecutive numbers."
That is a reference to refunds (for non-use) rather than compensation. Entitlement to Delay Repay is not diminished because of using Carnet tickets, but I don't know whether the enhanced levels under the 'additional industry compensation scheme' would have applied.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
If you're asking to have your ticket marked when there are crush loads of people, wouldn't it be rather an awkward time to ask staff to do anything? They're likely dealing with tickets that fail to work the gates (either damaged tickets or because of a specific block), checking railcards and assisting others.

Surely you stand well aside and mark your ticket or get to the gate before the crowds and ask? I mean how late do you leave it to decide to travel? When the hustle alarm is going off?!
 

AmicableMan

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2018
Messages
14
If you're asking to have your ticket marked when there are crush loads of people, wouldn't it be rather an awkward time to ask staff to do anything? They're likely dealing with tickets that fail to work the gates (either damaged tickets or because of a specific block), checking railcards and assisting others.

Surely you stand well aside and mark your ticket or get to the gate before the crowds and ask? I mean how late do you leave it to decide to travel? When the hustle alarm is going off?!

Couldn't agree more, as an ex member of gateline/revenue staff it's a lot more difficult to check tickets and assist passengers when someone is also asking you a question and wanting you to stamp their ticket.

Bearing in mind to check tickets properly as everyone rushes through the wide isle gate during peak times to exit is a difficult task in itself.

I hated carnet tickets, and I'm sure 99% of staff would rather see them disappear altogether given the amount of abuse they suffer with altering and re-use when used with a pen that can be rubbed off with your finger.

As stated further up in the thread this IS something GTR are looking at addressing, but with no off peak product the stumbling block is the DfT refusing to transfer it over to the Smartcard as Carnet tickets bring in a good amount of revenue.

OP where do you travel to and from?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Couldn't agree more, as an ex member of gateline/revenue staff it's a lot more difficult to check tickets and assist passengers when someone is also asking you a question and wanting you to stamp their ticket.

I agree, but "sorry, I'm not allowed to do that as I've been told to concentrate on X instead, can you ask for a pen at the booking office, please?" is the way to deal with it, not threatening prosecution however many times it is necessary to say "no".

Unless, of course, there's a bit of story missing, e.g. the OP "threatened" to pass the barrier without dating it first or got shirty about the barrier staff not doing what he asked for (something that isn't their job).

The OP needs to put a suitable pen in their pocket (a permanent fineliner is probably best) and date it themselves before passing the barrier, OTOH.
 

thewaistcoat

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
51
I agree, but "sorry, I'm not allowed to do that as I've been told to concentrate on X instead, can you ask for a pen at the booking office, please?" is the way to deal with it, not threatening prosecution however many times it is necessary to say "no".

Unless, of course, there's a bit of story missing, e.g. the OP "threatened" to pass the barrier without dating it first or got shirty about the barrier staff not doing what he asked for (something that isn't their job).

The OP needs to put a suitable pen in their pocket (a permanent fineliner is probably best) and date it themselves before passing the barrier, OTOH.

I was actually trying to be helpful by getting out of the way of the passengers of an arriving train (not my own train) BEFORE the gate staff became busy with disembarking passengers. It seems that anyone using Carnet cards is going to be treated as a criminal by default, so I've learnt that trying to be what I saw as being helpful is not an option. I won't in future. As I've said, I always had the correct pen (a permanent fineliner supplied by GTR) with me, it was just the order letting me through the barrier stamping my ticket and me dating the ticket and then out of courtesy re-showing my ticket after the rush (staying next to the barrier throughout) that was in question. I asked to have my card stamped and be let through 3 times in total and was permitted 3 times, which is why I was surprised about the "If you ask again I'll take your details." comment after I was permitted the last time. No shirtiness or rudeness on either side up until that point.

I currently travel Welwyn Garden City (to Kings Cross) and onwards to Blackfrairs (using Oyster) two days a week. The lack of off-peak weekday single ticket makes not using Carnet cards prohibitively expensive. It seems that Carnet card users are piggy in the middle between GTR and the DfT, so I'll expect to continue to be treated poorly, having tickets that don't work at barriers and with continual suspicion, until a new system for part-time workers is found.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
I was actually trying to be helpful by getting out of the way of the passengers of an arriving train (not my own train) BEFORE the gate staff became busy with disembarking passengers. It seems that anyone using Carnet cards is going to be treated as a criminal by default, so I've learnt that trying to be what I saw as being helpful is not an option. I won't in future. As I've said, I always had the correct pen (a permanent fineliner supplied by GTR) with me, it was just the order letting me through the barrier stamping my ticket and me dating the ticket and then out of courtesy re-showing my ticket after the rush (staying next to the barrier throughout) that was in question. I asked to have my card stamped and be let through 3 times in total and was permitted 3 times, which is why I was surprised about the "If you ask again I'll take your details." comment after I was permitted the last time. No shirtiness or rudeness on either side up until that point.

I currently travel Welwyn Garden City (to Kings Cross) and onwards to Blackfrairs (using Oyster) two days a week. The lack of off-peak weekday single ticket makes not using Carnet cards prohibitively expensive. It seems that Carnet card users are piggy in the middle between GTR and the DfT, so I'll expect to continue to be treated poorly, having tickets that don't work at barriers and with continual suspicion, until a new system for part-time workers is found.

Sorry, but why not date the ticket as you approach the barrier?

It's what I do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top