Services that dont seem to make sense...To me, anyway

FozzQuaker · 11 Apr 2019

Stood at Thornaby Railway Station and noticed a service that runs to Danby, had a look on Real Train Times and noticed comes from Hexham.

I make no claim to knowing anything about how the Railways work and dont quite understand why the services is on the timetable, as Danby barely gets 20 passengers a day

Is it a common thing for services like that up and down the country???

Many Thanks

FQ

RailUK Forums

Jorge Da Silva · 11 Apr 2019

FozzQuaker said:
Stood at Thornaby Railway Station and noticed a service that runs to Danby, had a look on Real Train Times and noticed comes from Hexham.

I make no claim to knowing anything about how the Railways work and dont quite understand why the services is on the timetable, as Danby barely gets 20 passengers a day

Is it a common thing for services like that up and down the country???

Many Thanks

FQ

20 Passengers a day is nothing compared to some stations. Recar British Steel gets 40 a year

swt_passenger · 11 Apr 2019

FozzQuaker said:
Stood at Thornaby Railway Station and noticed a service that runs to Danby, had a look on Real Train Times and noticed comes from Hexham.

I make no claim to knowing anything about how the Railways work and dont quite understand why the services is on the timetable, as Danby barely gets 20 passengers a day

Is it a common thing for services like that up and down the country???

Many Thanks

FQ

Yes, to a certain level. But Northern’s present timetable sees their units interwork services in the entire area bounded by Carlisle, Teeside, and Morpeth. So you might have what was once separate services eg Newcastle-Hexham, Newcastle-Middlesbrough, Middlesbrough-Danby, being more efficiently operated as a through service in the timetable.

Additionally, you find the services might not operate all the way in both directions. You could find for example that platforming limitations and possible reversals at Newcastle mean that it may be more efficient for trains to arrive at Hexham from Teeside, but depart back to Morpeth. (I haven’t checked the timetable, it’s just an attempt to generalise.)

DarloRich · 11 Apr 2019

FozzQuaker said:
Stood at Thornaby Railway Station and noticed a service that runs to Danby, had a look on Real Train Times and noticed comes from Hexham.

I make no claim to knowing anything about how the Railways work and dont quite understand why the services is on the timetable, as Danby barely gets 20 passengers a day

Is it a common thing for services like that up and down the country???

Many Thanks

FQ

that might may well be a way of "hiding" the unit rather than blocking a platform at Middlesbrough/Newcastle.

FozzQuaker · 11 Apr 2019

DarloRich said:
that might may well be a way of "hiding" the unit rather than blocking a platform at Middlesbrough/Newcastle.

Hiding the Unit...Que

Does that mean keeping the unit out in active service??? rather than it gathering dust in Newcastle or Middlesbrough

DarloRich · 11 Apr 2019

FozzQuaker said:
Hiding the Unit...Que

Does that mean keeping the unit out in active service??? rather than it gathering dust in Newcastle or Middlesbrough

sorry. Yes, it uses up the dead time of the unit stood still and frees up space.

Kite159 · 11 Apr 2019

Previously it was a single unit which did Middlesbrough - Whitby services going back & forward all day (and escaping to Newcastle at the end of the day). In addition you had the hourly Hexham - Nunthorpe services.

Since the May timetable change two of the Whitby services escape from the branch to Hexham, interworking with the Nunthorpe services, giving the stations from Nunthorpe to Middlesbrough an hourly service (rather than an hourly service plus some extras).

Nunthorpe to Danby is a good* way to get the unit out of the way at Nunthorpe so it returns to form the next service from Nunthorpe. Like you have a service to Battersby later in the day.

(* I say good, but when I did that service it had one other passenger to Danby and only me back to Nunthorpe, might make more sense to terminate it at Castleton Moor where it might get some more usage)

FozzQuaker · 11 Apr 2019

@DarloRich Thanks for the reply mate

FozzQuaker · 11 Apr 2019

Is there many more examples of this happening in the North East or up and down the Country???

yoyothehobo · 11 Apr 2019

I would say that the Leeds - Lancaster to Morecambe and return is pretty similar. Leeds to Lancaster and reverse seems to be a fairly decent flow on there, with it picking up decent patronage at Skipton. I have never seen it particularly well loaded coming from Morecambe to Lancaster in terms of passengers staying on, normally there is a big change over so even though it is through booked it is essentially 2 different services. Frees up a bay at Lancaster, keeps the unit busy etc..

pdeaves · 11 Apr 2019

Reading-Guildford services appear to fall into this category. In the current timetable, three terminate at Shalford, not because anyone particularly wants to go there but to get the unit out of the way at Guildford.

wellhouse · 11 Apr 2019

When TPE took over the stopping services Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester, there were still some peak Northern services between Manchester and Huddersfield. The stock from the pm Manchester-Huddersfield services now form an express return working express to Marsden (skipping Slaithwaite). They loiter at Marsden for 20 minutes or so, and then form a new working Marsden- Manchester (either Piccadilly or Victoria)

Iskra · 11 Apr 2019

yoyothehobo said:
I would say that the Leeds - Lancaster to Morecambe and return is pretty similar. Leeds to Lancaster and reverse seems to be a fairly decent flow on there, with it picking up decent patronage at Skipton. I have never seen it particularly well loaded coming from Morecambe to Lancaster in terms of passengers staying on, normally there is a big change over so even though it is through booked it is essentially 2 different services. Frees up a bay at Lancaster, keeps the unit busy etc..

In the summer many retired folk from West Yorkshire travel to Morecambe with suitcases etc for holidays there or the ferry. I've seen that service very busy.

alangla · 11 Apr 2019

Was wiring to Stalybridge not supposed to allow something similar, I.e. free up platforms at Manchester Victoria?

In SPT land, uni-directional services appear from time to time- up to recently, the Whifflet via Carmyle service went west to Milngavie, but coming east came from Dalmuir. The current one goes west via Singer but east via Yoker. There will be a balancing oddity somewhere else as well.

Edit - just looked a bit further, Larkhall services currently go to Milngavie but come from Dalmuir and Hamilton Circle services do the reverse.

Tracked · 12 Apr 2019

Had heard that was the reason for Doncaster-Adwick services originally (late 90's), the train terminates at Adwick and then goes onto the freight line to reverse. Up til last year they'd only run until 17:35 (about 8 minutes after the Doncaster-Leeds train), now they're running them later and with a bigger gap after the Doncaster-Leeds service. When I've caught them there's always been quite a few on so I don't think it's totally a platform-freeing move now.

The 06:03 Doncaster-Lincoln is an interesting one, it's stabled in Platform 2 at Doncaster overnight, then runs direct to Sheffield 6 minutes after an EMT service does the same (useful if that's cancelled though).

Frothy · 12 Apr 2019

As I understand, the reason the Hexham service runs past Nunthorpe to Danby is because the National Park Centre is there. I took that train last Saturday, 2 passengers got off at Battersby, 3 of us got off at Danby with a similar number waiting for the return...

FozzQuaker · 12 Apr 2019

Frothy said:
As I understand, the reason the Hexham service runs past Nunthorpe to Danby is because the National Park Centre is there. I took that train last Saturday, 2 passengers got off at Battersby, 3 of us got off at Danby with a similar number waiting for the return...

Would the National Parks pay Northern to have the service stop there?

Poolie · 12 Apr 2019

This one really gets me. 2N40. Newcastle - Stockton via the coast, arriving at 1833, then continues as [URL='http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y56005/2019/04/12/advanced']5N40. Stockton to Darlington at 1835, so effectively a through Newcastle to Darlington train via the coast. Why not class it as such? [/URL]

swt_passenger · 12 Apr 2019

Poolie said:
This one really gets me. 2N40. Newcastle - Stockton via the coast, arriving at 1833, then continues as 5N40. Stockton to Darlington at 1835, so effectively a through Newcastle to Darlington train via the coast. Why not class it as such?

Probably because 5N40 is ECS? But even if it wasn’t ECS they might not want to advertise it as a Newcastle to Darlington service if it would mean people accidentally assumed it ran via Durham...

kieron · 13 Apr 2019

FozzQuaker said:
Would the National Parks pay Northern to have the service stop there?

If it runs there because of them, then I'd hope so.

From what I can tell, this service isn't required by the franchise (at least, not east of Nunthorpe - I haven't checked the Middlesbrough stations), and going all the way to Danby leaves only a 5 minute turnaround. Yesterday's eastbound train was 18 minutes late at Nunthorpe, and only caught 2 up by Danby. It was then 10-15 minutes late all the way back to Hexham.

If Northern are willing to put their service to that sort of a risk, there has to be more of a motive for it than a few tickets to Battersby and Danby.

Ken H · 13 Apr 2019

Then there is the 1949 Leeds - Ribblehead and 2145 Ribblehead -Leeds. Why run a train to the middle of nowhere.

But its really a late train to Settle. and return. It just runs to Ribblehead so it can reverse at Blea Moor.

Lots of train mileage nor nothing....

agbrs_Jack · 13 Apr 2019

After May 2019 one of the (very few) Stoke stoppers on a Sunday seems to terminate at Manchester Oxford Road instead of Piccadilly. Seems a little odd as it's just one return service of the 6 but isn't really out of the way as MCO is also quite busy.

yorkie · 13 Apr 2019

Ken H said:
Then there is the 1949 Leeds - Ribblehead and 2145 Ribblehead -Leeds. Why run a train to the middle of nowhere.

But its really a late train to Settle. and return. It just runs to Ribblehead so it can reverse at Blea Moor.

Lots of train mileage nor nothing....

I don't understand. You ask why run a train to the middle of nowhere, and state the mileage is for nothing, yet recognise that the train needs to reverse at Blea Moor.

Unless a reversal facility is installed at Settle, the train may as well continue to Ribblehead in passenger service, rather than run ECS.

Ken H · 14 Apr 2019

yorkie said:
I don't understand. You ask why run a train to the middle of nowhere, and state the mileage is for nothing, yet recognise that the train needs to reverse at Blea Moor.

Unless a reversal facility is installed at Settle, the train may as well continue to Ribblehead in passenger service, rather than run ECS.

or put the reversal crossover back in Settle. there was one there in the 1980's.

but what costs more. the crossover or empty mileage?

and what does it cost to stop at Horton and Ribblehead in terms of fuel and brake wear? and the extra time the crew are at work.
and why does it take 37 minutes to reverse the train? train arr Ribblehead 2108, leaves 2145.

(leaves RHD as 5H29 2120, Blea Moor 2123-2140, arr RHD 2143)

nw1 · 14 Apr 2019

Reminds me a bit of the first 159-based timetable on the SWR (but then NSE) Exeter line.

At the time there was a two-hourly service to Exeter but the other two-hourly service didn't always terminate at Salisbury.. around the peaks they extended to Gillingham or Yeovil but there was one mid-morning service (at a time of day when presumably there wasn't huge out-of-London demand on this line) which randomly terminated at Tisbury. I think it then formed a Tisbury Salisbury 'short' service as it would have had to wait at Tisbury for a long time to fit into the standard hourly pattern, not to mention the single line constraining things.

HamworthyGoods · 14 Apr 2019

nickw1 said:
Reminds me a bit of the first 159-based timetable on the SWR (but then NSE) Exeter line.

At the time there was a two-hourly service to Exeter but the other two-hourly service didn't always terminate at Salisbury.. around the peaks they extended to Gillingham or Yeovil but there was one mid-morning service (at a time of day when presumably there wasn't huge out-of-London demand on this line) which randomly terminated at Tisbury. I think it then formed a Tisbury Salisbury 'short' service as it would have had to wait at Tisbury for a long time to fit into the standard hourly pattern, not to mention the single line constraining things.

The Tisbury shorts were operational - when 159s were first introduced by BR they hadn’t specified SDO meaning 6 car trains couldn’t stop at Tisbury. The Tisbury shorts were required to provide a service between Salisbury and Tisbury whereas previously the Exeter would have called. Subsequently the 159s were fitted with SDO and the Tisbury shorts were removed.

70014IronDuke · 14 Apr 2019

Ken H said:
..
and why does it take 37 minutes to reverse the train? train arr Ribblehead 2108, leaves 2145.

(leaves RHD as 5H29 2120, Blea Moor 2123-2140, arr RHD 2143)

I think the idea may be that it waits for the last Carlisle - Leeds passenger, and allows that to run "express" Garsdale - Settle - Skipton.

As regards your original point, Ribblehead is a 'sort of' railhead for the Dales region. They might consider it worthwhile running that train to Ribblehead even if there were a crossover at Settle.

30907 · 14 Apr 2019

70014IronDuke said:
I think the idea may be that it waits for the last Carlisle - Leeds passenger, and allows that to run "express" Garsdale - Settle - Skipton.

The Ribblehead has been running for years, but in an earlier path both ways, though ISTR it still had quite a long turnround. The new late up Carlisle runs semi fast to get out of its way I think.
TBH I was a bit surprised that it was retained when the 1919 Leeds-Lancs was put on, but I presume there's enough traffic to Settle to justify it.

Marton · 14 Apr 2019

I believe the Danby and Battersby services are a stop gap till the Esk Valley gets it’s promised better service when stock is available...

https://email.envoy.uk.net/t/ViewEmailArchive/t/66114CFC1C931458/C67FD2F38AC4859C/

Services that dont seem to make sense...To me, anyway

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