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People's attitude to buying tickets.

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al78

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I have always thought the way gas stations work in the UK is a bit silly; the American system works so well (though it can mean you need to go in and queue twice).

Are they? I find the pay at pump very easy and convenient. Insert card, enter pin, lift nozzle, refuel, put nozzle back, drive off. I don't see how it could be made any better than that.
 
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Are they? I find the pay at pump very easy and convenient. Insert card, enter pin, lift nozzle, refuel, put nozzle back, drive off. I don't see how it could be made any better than that.
True but what happens if it leads to either the card being blocked or you being able to draw fuel without having means to pay? The system needs modernisation before its implementation spreads in my opinion.
 

175mph

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Yes but you do PAY for your items. I think we should follow the USA example, eg at their petrol stations you need to pay before. Our petrol stations give more benefit of doubt.
But in the US some other services you pay after using or consuming, although this is nothing to do with petrol stations, most restaurants in the US have a benefit of the doubt pay after eating system, whereas as most eating places over here, you pay before you eat.
 

TurbostarFan

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But in the US some other services you pay after using or consuming, although this is nothing to do with petrol stations, most restaurants in the US have a benefit of the doubt pay after eating system, whereas as most eating places over here, you pay before you eat.
I didn't know that!
 

Haywain

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most restaurants in the US have a benefit of the doubt pay after eating system, whereas as most eating places over here, you pay before you eat.
In the UK you use "eating places" for your example, against "restaurants" in the US. Not a fair comparison when most restaurants in the UK do operate on the pay after eating basis.
 
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Are they? I find the pay at pump very easy and convenient. Insert card, enter pin, lift nozzle, refuel, put nozzle back, drive off. I don't see how it could be made any better than that.

Yes sorry, I was talking about when you are paying cash. In the USA it's basically impossible to steal fuel, because it won't let you take any until you've either paid cash or put your card in for pay at pump.
 

al78

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Yes sorry, I was talking about when you are paying cash. In the USA it's basically impossible to steal fuel, because it won't let you take any until you've either paid cash or put your card in for pay at pump.

If someone fills up then drives off without paying, can they not be found and prosecuted using their number plate? I would have thought that garages would have some way of logging the number plates of drivers filling up.
 

al78

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In the UK you use "eating places" for your example, against "restaurants" in the US. Not a fair comparison when most restaurants in the UK do operate on the pay after eating basis.

What exactly is meant by "eating place" here, as opposed to restaurant or cafe?
 
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If someone fills up then drives off without paying, can they not be found and prosecuted using their number plate? I would have thought that garages would have some way of logging the number plates of drivers filling up.

They can, but then you have to prove who was driving etc, beyond reasonable doubt. Far better if they don't steal in the first place.
 

xotGD

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If someone fills up then drives off without paying, can they not be found and prosecuted using their number plate? I would have thought that garages would have some way of logging the number plates of drivers filling up.
This is why people steal number plates prior to stealing fuel.
 

mmh

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The Takeaway, Pizza Shop or Fish and Chip Shop.

Which exist in America, and just like here you'll generally pay when you get your order.

If you go to McDonald's you pay first, just like here.

If you sit and wait, you pay afterwards, if you stand up and queue you pay first. Just like here.

It's a bizarre myth that we do that differently.
 
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Which exist in America, and just like here you'll generally pay when you get your order.

If you go to McDonald's you pay first, just like here.

If you sit and wait, you pay afterwards, if you stand up and queue you pay first. Just like here.

It's a bizarre myth that we do that differently.

The main difference is in bars/pubs I think. It's absolutely standard to run a tab and pay at the end in a bar in the US, even if you order at the bar, and even if it's your first time ever going to that bar. You just leave your card behind the bar.
 

Llanigraham

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The main difference is in bars/pubs I think. It's absolutely standard to run a tab and pay at the end in a bar in the US, even if you order at the bar, and even if it's your first time ever going to that bar. You just leave your card behind the bar.

Which is also quite common in this country.
 
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Which is also quite common in this country.

Not to the same extent. You can walk into any bar in the USA (more or less) and ask to start a tab, and leave your card behind the bar. They will have a whole system for it. Not that you can't do it here, but it's far less common and many pubs will only do it for regulars. I've lived for over a decade in both countries, I know what I'm talking about with this one.
 

mmh

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The main difference is in bars/pubs I think. It's absolutely standard to run a tab and pay at the end in a bar in the US, even if you order at the bar, and even if it's your first time ever going to that bar. You just leave your card behind the bar.

Just like here, it varies. Many places don't take cards at all, just like here.
 

mmh

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Not to the same extent. You can walk into any bar in the USA (more or less) and ask to start a tab, and leave your card behind the bar. They will have a whole system for it. Not that you can't do it here, but it's far less common and many pubs will only do it for regulars. I've lived for over a decade in both countries, I know what I'm talking about with this one.

Just like here, it varies depending on where you are.

My experience in Britain is most of the country, my American experience is limited to Wisconsin and northern California, perhaps as in central London there are areas in America where paying by card is standard, but again - like here! - that's far from universal.
 

Llanigraham

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Not to the same extent. You can walk into any bar in the USA (more or less) and ask to start a tab, and leave your card behind the bar. They will have a whole system for it. Not that you can't do it here, but it's far less common and many pubs will only do it for regulars. I've lived for over a decade in both countries, I know what I'm talking about with this one.

Funny but I travel around the country quite a lot, when caravanning or when officiating on car rallies and I find it very common to do this. And I certainly couldn't be considered a local in any of those places, so perhaps "I know what I'm talking about" as well.
 
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Well I don't want to get into an anecdote-off, but put it this way: in the US, a good fraction of the time when buying a drink, you'll be asked "do you want to start a tab?", same way "cash or card?" might be asked here. I don't think I've ever been offered, unprompted, to start a tab at a pub in the UK.
 

E759

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Well I don't want to get into an anecdote-off, but put it this way: in the US, a good fraction of the time when buying a drink, you'll be asked "do you want to start a tab?", same way "cash or card?" might be asked here. I don't think I've ever been offered, unprompted, to start a tab at a pub in the UK.
Did a day trip to Edinburgh from Sussex recently, care of cheap LNER Advance Single Sale, walked into Brewdog and was immediately offered a Tab when ordering my first beer.

Subsequently the manger offered a sample of every beer on tap but that’s a story for another occasion.
 
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Did a day trip to Edinburgh from Sussex recently, care of cheap LNER Advance Single Sale, walked into Brewdog and was immediately offered a Tab when ordering my first beer.

Subsequently the manger offered a sample of every beer on tap but that’s a story for another occasion.

Interesting! I didn't know Tab was still sold in the UK.
 

mattmtfc

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I know when we went from hull to Scarborough a few years back we wanted a duo ticket and the ticket machine didnt sell them and we didnt have time to go to the booking office so I had a word with the conductor before we boarded and he said not a problem. In fact whenever I've caught trains from hull I've often seen the conductor selling tickets. I know nearly all conductors will sell cheap days savers out of hull because the new ticket office is to far for people to go and the machine at the entrance to the platforms dont sell duos or east torks round Robin's.
 

175mph

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I know when we went from hull to Scarborough a few years back we wanted a duo ticket and the ticket machine didnt sell them and we didnt have time to go to the booking office so I had a word with the conductor before we boarded and he said not a problem. In fact whenever I've caught trains from hull I've often seen the conductor selling tickets. I know nearly all conductors will sell cheap days savers out of hull because the new ticket office is to far for people to go and the machine at the entrance to the platforms dont sell duos or east torks round Robin's.
And I've noticed at the entrance to the platforms there is now one of those penalty fare warning posters.
 

Darren1664

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Following the theme of analogies

Imagine in your local town you had one restaurant in which to eat. When you enter a waiter seats you at a table and takes your order and then, at the appropriate moment, brings the bill and a means of taking payment.

Once a week you go to this restaurant and always the same routine. Waiter takes your order and then later brings your bill. Sometimes, if the waiter is busy serving another table, you get up and approach the tills where you settle up. It's great! The service is lovely. They thank you for your custom and see you out the door with a smile "come again".

You happen to be away one weekend but are thrilled to see the owners of your local restaurant own another one in the town you are visiting.

You go there and are greeted by a waiter. The waiter takes your order but later does not come back with a bill or means of payment. So you wait a little longer until you finally decide to pay at the till.

You approach the till and join the back of queue, card in hand.

Someone then taps you on the shoulder and says

"Excuse me can I take your name and address, you have eaten here with the intent to avoid payment"

To which you are furious. How dare they??

The inspector (as we shall call them) then points to a wall of pictures and says

"What does that say?"

Looking carefully, in amongst various pieces of advertisement, you see a yellow notice you'd never seen before which says that payment for meals must be made at the first opportunity to do so and that not doing so is prosecutable with a potential criminal record.

"Wait a moment. This is my first opportunity to pay?"

To which the inspector points to a notice board at the far end of the room. You walk closer wandering what they could mean when you notice something behind the notice board. It's some form of retro machine. It's covered in dirt and placed underneath a bright light so the screen is barely visible. You approach the machine in curiosity and, getting closer, you see just two items listed on the screen which just so happen to be the two you'd ordered and across the top reads "MEAL TICKET VENDING MACHINE". Gotcha!

This is how it feels to have grown up in an area where the practice for everybody is to purchase on board the train with the conductor. No conductor or rail staff ever mention that it is not acceptable or that at another station, that has a ticket machine, you should buy before you board. You have never known it was illegal to board without a ticket. This is how the world looks for many and if you are not from this world in may be hard to comprehend but I don't think people from this world should be treated like criminals and when, for the first time in their lives, they are told it is a criminal offence to board without a ticket I don't think it is fair that they are immediately threatened with prosecution in court and a potential criminal record unless they pay an 'administration settlement'.

All the best

Darren
 

jon0844

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Why do restaurant (and supermarket) analogies never quite work?
 

furlong

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[In reply to @Darren1664's situation that led to the analogy]
The problem you have is that using the courts is expensive and any particular outcome can never be guaranteed. There's plenty of doublethink in the current system - train companies pursuing their "rights" while quietly neglecting the corresponding "obligations" that led to those rights. And the train companies deal with the courts day in, day out, so know all the nuances, but you don't so have an immediate disadvantage unless you pay for legal representation. So pragmatism cuts in, you cut your losses, grit your teeth and agree a questionable out-of-court settlement. Yes, you can find lots of problems with the system, the way the train companies and the DfT have acted, but it's hard to effect change without spending lots of time or/and money. Perhaps someone will come along one day and start a focussed political campaign to try to force the DfT to deal with the problems, or spend many thousands on a judicial review or on involving the higher courts in a particular "unfair" case.
 
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furlong

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Paraphrasing in a loose manner, the RORA offence mentioned needs evidence beyond reasonable doubt of an intention - that may be merely momentary - not to pay the right fare and it was once decided that walking past ticket-selling facilities without using them was sufficient proof of this momentary intention. The train companies liked to generalise that into saying the law says you must pay at your first opportunity. Fighting that in court would be hard - you'd maximise your chances with a good lawyer able to pick holes in the arguments, and then enough money to appeal to a higher court afterwards if need be. But realistically, the train company holds most of the cards.
 
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Antman

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And I've noticed at the entrance to the platforms there is now one of those penalty fare warning posters.

These posters are even at stations where you can't buy a ticket, what is the occasional rail user supposed to make of that? You can't buy a ticket here but you risk a penalty fare or prosecution if you travel without one. Regulars will know that you can buy a ticket on the train or pay at your destination but why doesn't it say that on the poster?
 
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