• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Poll and Discussion: Northern Powerhouse Rail or Trans-Pennine Upgrade

Northern Powerhouse Rail or Trans-Pennine Upgrade

  • Northern Powerhouse Rail

    Votes: 14 10.1%
  • Trans-Pennine Upgrade

    Votes: 52 37.4%
  • Both

    Votes: 64 46.0%
  • Neither - spend the money where the most passengers are and the trains are already 12-car EMUs

    Votes: 9 6.5%

  • Total voters
    139
Status
Not open for further replies.

ABB125

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2016
Messages
3,757
Location
University of Birmingham
The title is self explanatory really.

The fourth option is there to provoke debate about whether we should be building a new line across the North, where most trains are 2-3 coach DMUs, or somewhere like London where all most trains are 12-car EMUs (or equivialent).

Please discuss; I look forward to seeing the results of the poll.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The title is self explanatory really.

The fourth option is there to provoke debate about whether we should be building a new line across the North, where most trains are 2-3 coach DMUs, or somewhere like London where all most trains are 12-car EMUs (or equivialent).

Please discuss; I look forward to seeing the results of the poll.

Don't build a new line. Build selective improvements (Picc P15/16, Oxford Road work, loops in useful places etc) to allow for a proper Taktfahrplan (regular interval connectional timetable) to be operated on all lines in the North and for much longer trains to operate on the mainlines, bringing that aspect up to South East standards.

Oh, and other than the "2-car DMU" branches (the likes of Ormskirk-Preston, Kirkby-Wigan, Cumbrian Coast past Barrow, Lancaster-Leeds, Middlesbrough-Whitby and similar), electrify the whole lot.
 
Last edited:

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,722
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
After a little deliberation, I have opted for the Trans-Pennine upgrade. As much as it would be nice to see a new line, the logistics of it would require tens of billions to bore a new alignment though the Pennines & serve the North's major cities. So the best option is to upgrade the North TP, with a view further down the line for some further improvements to the Calder Valley. And I wouldn't just go with basic upgrades, four-tracking where possible, full signalling upgrades platform lengthening & electrification are all needed to turn what is a relatively slow commuter line that is used as a inter-city, into a fully inter-city route capable of also serving commuters. Schemes like Piccadilly P15/16, Oxford Road redesign, Leeds-York/Selby wiring & further TOC capacity increases would also be very necessary in the short to medium term.

It won't be a cheap option by any means, but after decades of low investment in what is a crucial route for the North of England, its time to bite the bullet & do it properly.
 

Randomer

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2017
Messages
317
I voted for the Trans-Pennine Upgrade as the closest option to what to me seems to biggest problem in the route - passenger capacity.

The publicity around both schemes seems to concentrate on faster journey opportunities and in some cases more direct trains across the route (e.g. Bradford area - Manchester for Northern Powerhouse.) To me this misses the point that we are currently running small trains which are badly overcrowded across limited infrastructure. I accept that TPE going to 5 carriage units will help but it seems to me that suppressed demand could fill them rapidly well within there predicted lifetime.

Personally I would think that modifying the infrastructure to allow much longer, higher capacity trains has to be the priority to win market share versus cars across the Pennines. Effectively this means in my mind:
-Electrifying the whole route to allow 10-12 coach EMU to give enough acceleration after stops. I don't see a case where a 10-12 car Bi-Mode system could work so this may mean electrifying to other areas e.g. Leeds > York > Scarborough/Middlesborough etc. as well as Leeds-Hull. I can't see portion working being possible without huge risk to timetable resilience.
-Modifying stations to allow longer units to be berthed without fouling signals or switches, especially at terminals. Namely Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly (probably platform 15-16)

If any of these works required for electrification or longer units to run can sensibly allow for an increase in speed to due to necessary alignment changes this is all well and good if the cost isn't increased massively. Personally I think a huge mistake was made in not electrifying the route when first proposed without any major alignment changes (i.e. the proposal not accepted by Grayling.) At some point the DfT and general public may need to accept that running huge numbers of small services from X to Manchester Airport is actually giving them a far worse journey experience than changing in central Manchester for a relatively uncrowded airport train.
 

jfowkes

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
884
Both, I think. If we truly want to shift money/power/influence/population/traffic/whatever away from London and the South, then a high-speed intercity service with NPR and an upgraded trans-pennine "Thameslink-equivalent" network should be the aim.
 

ABB125

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2016
Messages
3,757
Location
University of Birmingham
Only if you know what Northern Powerhouse Rail and Trans-Pennine Upgrade are. Any chance of a brief description of each?
Sorry :)
Northern Powerhouse Rail is a new, high-speed (ish) line between Liverpool and Leeds via Manchester and Bradford.
The Trans-Pennine Route runs from Manchester to Leeds via Huddersfield; a fair amount of it was 4-tracks in the past, including Standedge tunnel, so there is scope for upgrade. (Partial) electrification is planned.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,933
Both. The Transpennine Upgrade serves more local passengers as where as Northern Powerhouse Rail serves people over longer distances.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,940
Location
Yorks
I think they need to get on and electrify the trans pennine route and get the longer trains needed running quickly. If they could do something to speed up the approach to Manchester (and complete the Castlefield Corridor improvements), you would end up with quite decent journey times.

The alternative is twenty + years of procrastination whilst we decide where the new line is going to go and who will pay for it.
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,528
I’ve voted Transpennine upgrade.

So called Northern Powerhouse Rail just strikes me as something that will just be discussed for years and years, many millions will be spent on feasibility studies, every council area will want to get a piece of the action, and then eventually in decades time, they will realise that tunnelling under the Pennines is actually quite expensive, so will cancel it.

Meanwhile upgrades like Platforms 15&16, platform lengthening, passing loops allowing better services on the Calder Valley as well as the Transpennine etc etc can start now.
 

class 9

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2010
Messages
955
TP upgrade, to include 4 tracking from Ravensthorpe to Stalybridge(utilising all bores of Standedge and the Micklehurst loop) and of course full electrification.
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,298
TPRU is the Government's current 'flagship' project to enhance the North's railways. Bits have been slightly announced by DfT or leaked by the press. It's definitely happening, with £3.1bn committed by the Government.
NPR is very much in the works. To most on here, it's a buzzword with a lot of speculation swirling about what it actually is and what it aims to deliver. It's not been mentioned so far on this thread that NPR is divided into 'west' (Manchester-Liverpool) and 'east' (Manchester-Bradford-Leeds) sections. So you could end up with one, both, or neither. As a credit to the people involved, very little confirmed detail actually exists in the public domain.
Both NPR and TPRU are covered by non-disclosure. So the speculation will continue to swirl as nobody is compromising their job to suggest any details whatsoever; at least until Grayling and Co. decide they would like to tell you about how your fares and taxes are being invested in the network.
 
Last edited:

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,528
But, the timetable for NPR will span multiple governments, who will all get their chance to review the plans and cancel it.

It’ll end up as some very minor improvements to an existing line.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,940
Location
Yorks
TPRU is the Government's current 'flagship' project to enhance the North's railways. Bits have been slightly announced by DfT or leaked by the press. It's definitely happening, with £3.1bn committed by the Government.
NPR is very much in the works. To most on here, it's a buzzword with a lot of speculation swirling about what it actually is and what it aims to deliver. It's not been mentioned so far on this thread that NPR is divided into 'west' (Manchester-Liverpool) and 'east' (Manchester-Bradford-Leeds) sections. So you could end up with one, both, or neither. As a credit to the people involved, very little confirmed detail actually exists in the public domain.
Both NPR and TPRU are covered by non-disclosure. So the speculation will continue to swirl as nobody is compromising their job to suggest any details whatsoever; at least until Grayling and Co. decide they would like to tell you about how your fares and taxes are being invested in the network.

In the meantime, they can't even manage an island platform at Piccadilly.

That's the problem with these grandes projects. The day to day railway is neglected.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,722
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
In the meantime, they can't even manage an island platform at Piccadilly.

That's the problem with these grandes projects. The day to day railway is neglected.

NPR is the handy can that upgrades like Piccadilly P15/16 can be put in, then kicked down the road. If as suggested above NPR gets greenlighted, then I expect even more procrastination from DfT and no more movement on these much needed projects until after a General Election.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,940
Location
Yorks
NPR is the handy can that upgrades like Piccadilly P15/16 can be put in, then kicked down the road. If as suggested above NPR gets greenlighted, then I expect even more procrastination from DfT and no more movement on these much needed projects until after a General Election.

Quite.
 

driver_m

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2011
Messages
2,248
I’d say both but if it had to be one I’d say NPR. There have been some upgrades that haven’t seemed to fulfil their potential. Norton Bridge hasn’t had extra trains added and just passed the Xc conflict to Stoke , the new E-N chord at Nuneaton seems to have more graffiti than trains using it, yet the critical game changer upgrades like p15/16 and extra platforms at Liverpool Central aren’t getting tackled. If you think Edinburgh-Scotland has got 5 routes connecting each other and yet some of England’s biggest cities have 2 if they’re lucky, it’s a bit of a curates egg. For balance too, I would argue that the South East’s main priority should be reopening BML2, Midlands should be 4 track Cov-Wolves and a full fat reopening of Oxford-Cambridge, double tracked, wired and decent signalling capacity, but definitely NPR should be the country’s next no1 priority. Not another cross rail or some other Heathrow link.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,933
I would add Coventry to Leamington via Kenilworth double tracking as this seems to be bottleneck that needs to be tackled to allow more freight to operate
 

centraltrains

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2015
Messages
480
Location
West Midlands
Well, since by definition of the poll, Birmingham is neither and therefore has mostly 12 car EMUs? I wish...

Electrify the Snow Hill lines! A line with a 10 minute frequency on it's core... Seems like it should be electrified to me!
 

ABB125

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2016
Messages
3,757
Location
University of Birmingham
Well, since by definition of the poll, Birmingham is neither and therefore has mostly 12 car EMUs? I wish...

Electrify the Snow Hill lines! A line with a 10 minute frequency on it's core... Seems like it should be electrified to me!
I have to agree with that, although it is a bit off-topic.
 

CdBrux

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2014
Messages
769
Location
Munich
Both: TPRU in the next 5 or 7 years, then switch the money (and a bit more) into progressively building NPR once a route and progressive implementation plan has been agreed (which is the main initial risk I see in even getting a NPR proposal)
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
Both, but a proper job on TPRU first and urgently, with full electrification and all the planned infrastructure improvements. And then a modified NPR new line Liverpool direct to Manchester and then Manchester direct to Leeds (and on to the ECML), aiming for a best possible time between Liverpool and Leeds with a single stop in Manchester.
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,264
Both, but a proper job on TPRU first and urgently, with full electrification and all the planned infrastructure improvements. And then a modified NPR new line Liverpool direct to Manchester and then Manchester direct to Leeds (and on to the ECML), aiming for a best possible time between Liverpool and Leeds with a single stop in Manchester.

NPR is prioritising connectivity over end-to-end time. Stops are planned at Warrington, Manchester Airport and Bradford. Even so, it's still planned to deliver a Leeds to Liverpool journey time of under an hour.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Tricky one.

HS2 is essential because the main lines north from London are already running at around maximum capacity (both in terms of number of services per hour and length of services – you can say “magic signalling” as many times as you want but it won’t get away from the fact that an eleven coach 390 every three minutes is as much as the infrastructure can cope with – see also twelve coach 350s or ten coach 800/801s).

We need HS2 because there’s no simple way that we can provide much additional capacity on existing lines (you can fiddle at the edges, replace some First Class with 2+2 seats, replace a couple of short Open Access services on the ECML with proper length trains, but proper surgery is required rather than anything cosmetic).

The Manchester – Leeds line though… (which, let’s be honest, is what this is about – I don’t think that there’s any point in pretending that Sheffield is part of this) … that’s a lot of three coach trains at the moment, soon to be replaced by five coach trains (5x26 will provide significantly more seats than 3x23, especially given the layout of 185s!), but still nowhere near what the current platforms can cope with (ignoring the “local” services stopping at Marsden etc).

It’s therefore harder to make a case for new infrastructure (when we are already running six/hour from Manchester to Huddersfield, six/hour from Huddersfield to Leeds and planning six or seven per hour on bits of the Calder Valley line, given the apparent need to link Bradford to Hull/ Nottingham/ Liverpool/ Chester/ Manchester Airport etc).

Some “local” stations will struggle to accommodate longer services, granted, but the “proper” TPE services can surely accommodate InterCity length trains (before we start worrying about new lines). Very different to HS2.

I’m also sceptical about 15/16 at Piccadilly being such a priority or being such an apparent panacea – we already send too many short services through 13/14 – we already send too many services to Manchester Airport (based on the average passenger loading of around thirty five passengers) – building 15/16 will improve reliability a bit by permitting longer dwells at the island platforms but won’t solve the number of conflicts (e.g. the “Oxford Road” services heading to Stockport whilst “Main Shed” services head to the Airport) – or the number of other flat junctions, given the messy combination of services around Manchester.

It feels like Theresa May asking for Brexit extensions, only to wade back into the same issue a few weeks later because she hasn’t tackled the actual problem – we’d spend hundreds of millions of pounds on 15/16 and then use that to squeeze even more short trains through Oxford Road to the Airport (or create even more conflicting movements by running more Stockport services beyond Piccadilly). We’d be better simplifying the service patterns around Manchester and lengthening services before we start on more big projects around there.

Spend the money on additional coaches (for existing services) instead and tidy up the route map; northern England needs to stop with the “running direct services from everywhere to everywhere” approach and focus instead on running longer trains on simpler service patterns.

We don’t need services from the Calder Valley to all of Blackpool/ Southport/ Liverpool/ Chester/ Manchester Airport in one direction and York/ Hull/ Nottingham in the other direction… we just need proper length services at a reasonable frequency (that the infrastructure can cope with) to Manchester in one direction and Leeds in the other direction (and, if, for operational reasons, these are married with another unelectrified destination at the other side of those cities – e.g. Hull to Southport – then fair enough – but it’s not worth crippling the infrastructure so that we can run short DMUs to half a dozen distant destinations in each direction – we’d be better to focus on better longer trains.

I can see the logic in HS3/NPR – if you have High Speed infrastructure at both Manchester and Leeds (built as part of HS2) then you can piggy-back upon that sunk cost and use it to create a much better business case for a fast Trans-Pennine service. Given the 400m platforms required to accommodate a few HS2 services at Manchester/ Leeds, it seems obvious to try to use that infrastructure as the starting point for something that will connect Manchester/ Leeds. I can see why “London” want to tie the two together, to try to sell it as a benefit from HS2 (that you’ll only get if HS2 is properly built first) – that’s a good political trick. I just can’t see the need for it just yet, when we have trains significantly shorter than the infrastructure (and a lot of capacity wasted by conflicting movements that often only exist because we are trying to link everywhere to Manchester Airport and link Bradford to everywhere).

(also, if you want HS3/NPR to provide fast services from Manchester to Leeds then fair enough but then running a dog-leg via Bradford seems to defeat part of the point in building such a “fast” line – especially given the way Bradford city centre sits in its own dead-end valley – if you are starting with a blank sheet of paper and want to put intermediate stops in then why not consider places without heavy rail stations like Oldham/ Cleckheaton etc)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top