Stagecoach Group (Group-wide matters)

Anthony ross · 14 Apr 2019

Although to be fair there’s nothing stopping stagecoach from buying arriva and keeping the arriva name

RailUK Forums

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Apr 2019

Anthony ross said:
Although to be fair there’s nothing stopping stagecoach from buying arriva and keeping the arriva name

Apart from the CMA investigation that would happen and a likely block on the deal. No issue with European ops but the monopolies they would have on Merseyside, South Manchester and much of the North East plus being the main operator from the edge of London to the Midlands (if you amalgamate Arriva Shires as was, with Stagecoach East, Stagecoach Mids, Arriva Mids) - it’s a huge swathe with just a bit of Centrebus and First Leicester.

overthewater · 14 Apr 2019

What if there went in with two other companies etc and made deal split the company up. Leicester, MK, and parts of kent might not be problem ie there must be parts where there is no overlap?

winston270twm · 14 Apr 2019

goldisgood said:
If they could get as much of it as they can, divesting any areas where there is too much overlap with existing operations, they would dominate the market and could expand into lots of profitable areas.
Most of the operation should be ok on the whole - Southern Counties, North East (I'm thinking Teesside in particular) and North West could cause some competition issues, but even if you rid of these they would have a massively increased operation with more profitable areas such as Yorkshire and Leicester.
I doubt much will come from this, but if it does we could see an interesting few years.

It's not just about overlap / adjacent operating areas being an issue. I seem to recall there's a Dft / CMA rule where no one Transport Group can control more than 25% of the UK Bus market, same with London. Stagecoach are already near 20% of the UK now with a fleet of 8400. At best they may be able to take of approx. 40% of Arriva UK's fleet (circa 2100 of Arriva's 5000 UK buses). The trouble is, the majority of Arriva's better operations all boarder / overlap with Stagecoach i.e. Merseyside & Manchester / Yorkshire / London / North East (Teeside & Darlington) / Cymru (Chester) / Southern Counties (Surrey & Kent) etc. If Stagecoach are going to take Chris Grayling and the Dft to the High Court over the exclusion from three rail franchise bids, can you really see the Dft sitting back to allow to Stagecoach to gobble up Arriva UK or are they likely to cause them further problems by blocking a deal for the UK bit?

I think DB will want to conclude a deal asap, it's already been on the cards for two years and DB are facing mounting pressure due to massive debts.

Yorks185 · 14 Apr 2019

winston270twm said:
It's not just about overlap / adjacent operating areas being an issue. I seem to recall there's a Dft / CMA rule where no one Transport Group can control more than 25% of the UK Bus market, same with London. Stagecoach are already near 20% of the UK now with a fleet of 8400. At best they may be able to take of approx. 40% of Arriva UK's fleet (circa 2100 of Arriva's 5000 UK buses). The trouble is, the majority of Arriva's better operations all boarder / overlap with Stagecoach i.e. Merseyside & Manchester / Yorkshire / London / North East (Teeside & Darlington) / Cymru (Chester) / Southern Counties (Surrey & Kent) etc. If Stagecoach are going to take Chris Grayling and the Dft to the High Court over the exclusion from three rail franchise bids, can you really see the Dft sitting back to allow to Stagecoach to gobble up Arriva UK or are they likely to cause them further problems by blocking a deal for the UK bit?

I think DB will want to conclude a deal asap, it's already been on the cards for two years and DB are facing mounting pressure due to massive debts.

For Merseyside,could history not just repeat itself & if they took over the Arriva depots then they could just sell 1 (i believe this is what Arriva did with Gilmoss when they first entered Merseyside) ,Yorkshire shouldnt be an issue as Stagecoach dont operate into West Yorkshire (apart from 2 express services to Leeds) & Arriva only operate 2 services into South Yorkshire (Doncaster to Pontefract/Selby)

One slight thing over Yorkshire,has it been said if Yorkshire Tiger operations would be included with any Arriva sale,or do DB plan on keeping hold of it? Stagecoach got rid of Waterloo depot & its operations before,would be interesting to see if they kept hold of it if they do indeed end up with YT

winston270twm · 14 Apr 2019

Yorks185 said:
For Merseyside,could history not just repeat itself & if they took over the Arriva depots then they could just sell 1 (i believe this is what Arriva did with Gilmoss when they first entered Merseyside) ,Yorkshire shouldnt be an issue as Stagecoach dont operate into West Yorkshire (apart from 2 express services to Leeds) & Arriva only operate 2 services into South Yorkshire (Doncaster to Pontefract/Selby)

One slight thing over Yorkshire,has it been said if Yorkshire Tiger operations would be included with any Arriva sale,or do DB plan on keeping hold of it? Stagecoach got rid of Waterloo depot & its operations before,would be interesting to see if they kept hold of it if they do indeed end up with YT

When Arriva bought MTL, they had smaller Manchester & North Western ops, Stagecoach already have a dominant position in Manchester & a sizeable position in Merseyside with Gillmoss depot plus the Birkenhead part of First they bought since. I just can't see it being allowed, as they'd have control of a massive area.

Yorkshire Tiger is fully owned by Arriva, just more of a low cast unit with its own brand as opposed to the main Arriva brand. Then there's the Centrebus Holdings stake to be considered.

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Apr 2019

winston270twm said:
It's not just about overlap / adjacent operating areas being an issue. I seem to recall there's a Dft / CMA rule where no one Transport Group can control more than 25% of the UK Bus market, same with London. Stagecoach are already near 20% of the UK now with a fleet of 8400. At best they may be able to take of approx. 40% of Arriva UK's fleet (circa 2100 of Arriva's 5000 UK buses). The trouble is, the majority of Arriva's better operations all boarder / overlap with Stagecoach i.e. Merseyside & Manchester / Yorkshire / London / North East (Teeside & Darlington) / Cymru (Chester) / Southern Counties (Surrey & Kent) etc. If Stagecoach are going to take Chris Grayling and the Dft to the High Court over the exclusion from three rail franchise bids, can you really see the Dft sitting back to allow to Stagecoach to gobble up Arriva UK or are they likely to cause them further problems by blocking a deal for the UK bit?

I think DB will want to conclude a deal asap, it's already been on the cards for two years and DB are facing mounting pressure due to massive debts.

Absolutely this.

Put yourself in DB's boots. They want to raise funds by divesting of this. They can do so by either selling to an investment vehicle (e.g. a venture capitalist/PE business) OR they can spin it off as a private company in its own right via an IPO (a stock market listing in its own right. Both of those tick boxes.

What they won't want is some protracted sale to a business who will most probably be embroiled in a CMA ruling.

CM · 14 Apr 2019

winston270twm said:
I have thought Stagecoach making an offer for Arriva's European Bus Division would give it a more diversified portfolio, I'd have thought any bid to include Arriva's UK bus business would be a non starter due to it's existing market share.

I'd take that article with a pinch of salt, for one thing AFAIK Arriva are NOT the larges bus operator in the UK, Stagecoach are. So it looks like either a lack of reasearch or just someone spouting mince.

winston270twm · 14 Apr 2019

Colin M said:
I'd take that article with a pinch of salt, for one thing AFAIK Arriva are NOT the larges bus operator in the UK, Stagecoach are. So it looks like either a lack of reasearch or just someone spouting mince.

It's not just about the Arriva UK ops (Arriva are 3rd largest group behind Stagecoach 1st, First Group 2nd in terms of the UK alone), however, some of the confusion arises across various articles from the fact Arriva's Group headquarters are UK based, but in reality their European ops are much bigger than their UK and overall Arriva Group inc Europe, they are actually bigger than Stagecoach Group.

Arriva operate 20,790 buses (only circa 5000 are UK), then various other trains & water buses on top of those:
https://www.arriva.co.uk/

I'd personally like to see Stagecoach buy their European arm, it would give them a more diversified portfolio. With the current public rows between Stagecoach and the Dft, I wouldn't entertain acquiring any of Arriva's UK Rail Franchises or any bits of Arriva UK Bus that would cause contention.

TheGrandWazoo said:
Absolutely this.

Put yourself in DB's boots. They want to raise funds by divesting of this. They can do so by either selling to an investment vehicle (e.g. a venture capitalist/PE business) OR they can spin it off as a private company in its own right via an IPO (a stock market listing in its own right. Both of those tick boxes.

What they won't want is some protracted sale to a business who will most probably be embroiled in a CMA ruling.

Agreed. DB may consider splitting the UK & European Business it's to two separate sales. I'd be surprised if they would ever consider a full break up of the group in to small sales. I believe DB are 22 Billion Euros in debt, loosing their monopoly on German Rail to the likes of NX, Abellio, Go-Ahead etc. And struggling like First Group are.

goldisgood · 14 Apr 2019

winston270twm said:
It's not just about the Arriva UK ops (Arriva are 3rd largest group behind Stagecoach 1st, First Group 2nd in terms of the UK alone), however, some of the confusion arises across various articles from the fact Arriva's Group headquarters are UK based, but in reality their European ops are much bigger than their UK and overall Arriva Group inc Europe, they are actually bigger than Stagecoach Group. I'd personally like to see Stagecoach buy their European arm, it would give them a more diversified portfolio.

Particularly as Stagecoach now only have their buses in the UK, it would be good to get a foothold elsewhere.

winston270twm · 14 Apr 2019

goldisgood said:
Particularly as Stagecoach now only have their buses in the UK, it would be good to get a foothold elsewhere.

Stagecoach are good at running buses, I think that's what they should stick too. An established European business with scale would give them a good platform to further expand.

CM · 14 Apr 2019

winston270twm said:
It's not just about the Arriva UK ops (Arriva are 3rd largest group behind Stagecoach 1st, First Group 2nd in terms of the UK alone), however, some of the confusion arises across various articles from the fact Arriva's Group headquarters are UK based, but in reality their European ops are much bigger than their UK and overall Arriva Group inc Europe, they are actually bigger than Stagecoach Group.

Arriva operate 20,790 buses (only circa 5000 are UK), then various other trains & water buses on top of those:
https://www.arriva.co.uk/

I'd personally like to see Stagecoach buy their European arm, it would give them a more diversified portfolio. With the current public rows between Stagecoach and the Dft, I wouldn't entertain acquiring any of Arriva's UK Rail Franchises or any bits of Arriva UK Bus that would cause contention.

Agreed. DB may consider splitting the UK & European Business it's to two separate sales. I'd be surprised if they would ever consider a full break up of the group in to small sales. I believe DB are 22 Billion Euros in debt, loosing their monopoly on German Rail to the likes of NX, Abellio, Go-Ahead etc. And struggling like First Group are.

They may be larger as a whole, but not in the UK which is what the article says. Stagecoach are the largest bus operator in the UK therefor the article is wrong as it says nothing about Arriva's European operations whatsoever. Crap journalism at it's finest.

winston270twm · 14 Apr 2019

Colin M said:
They may be larger as a whole, but not in the UK which is what the article says. Stagecoach are the largest bus operator in the UK therefor the article is wrong as it says nothing about Arriva's European operations whatsoever. Crap journalism at it's finest.

It doesn't take much research / you don't have to look far to get the facts before publishing, to be fair, they're not the only ones that fail to mentioned the much larger that Arriva European Business! They probably just copy each other....

Surreyman · 14 Apr 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Absolutely this.

Put yourself in DB's boots. They want to raise funds by divesting of this. They can do so by either selling to an investment vehicle (e.g. a venture capitalist/PE business) OR they can spin it off as a private company in its own right via an IPO (a stock market listing in its own right. Both of those tick boxes.

What they won't want is some protracted sale to a business who will most probably be embroiled in a CMA ruling.

Agreed one sale to one party.
I would expect whoever buys the whole group to carry out a review of the whole business, this might result in the sale of some parts.
Would Arriva Uk Bus, or at least parts of it, operating in a deregulated market (excluding London) be seen as a more risky or less profitable long term investment?

chiltern trev · 14 Apr 2019

LancasterRed said:
I've had some time now acclimatising to the new timetable in Lancaster and it's about 18bph from the University to the city. Ideally you want to get a 1 but others will make do. A lot of people aren't aware of the 41 and 42 but they do a great job and I don't see why uniriders wouldn't be allowed on them. (I don't have one)

But sadly, 18 is still not enough. The overcrowding situation is still ridiculous - at night as there are so few buses you can easily get a couple hundred trying to get onto one or two buses. During the day it's equally as much carnage - and each 1 leaves just as sardined as the next

The new campus opens at the end of this academic year. Two new colleges are rumoured to be being added to Lancaster University's collegiate and the University is taking in even more people every year. New developments are going up all the time.

I think Stagecoach in Lancaster are generally excellent, but this isn't going to end well.

We visit Morecambe every other week, and have lunch in Sainsbury's cafe at lunchtime (Usually Friday)- all the 1s going past both way are very empty. And the same goes for all the 2s in the afternoon on the Morecambe West Promenade (about 0.5 mile from the turn off for Bare).
So are the Morecambe legs of the 1 and 2 really that busy at other times to justify double deckers?

So is the answer more duplicates on the 1?

chiltern trev · 14 Apr 2019

Surreyman said:
There seems to be a programme to re-engine late model MAN 18.240s with new Euro 6 compliant Cummins engines, Newcastle, Hull and West seem to be the companies doing this.
Does anyone know how many are likely to be done?
Stagecoach have clearly made a commercial decision to fund some conversions, as the vehicles were built 2009-2010 (9/10 years old) they must be convinced that the cost of re-engineing is justified.

3 at Carlisle - 22877/8/9
from https://www.flickr.com/photos/stagecoachuk/40551466923/

The current status of the MAN E300s in the fleet is listed below:
22595 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22596 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22597 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22598 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22599 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22607 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22608 MAN 18/240 - Enviro 300 Disposal (Engine U/S)
22609 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22610 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22611 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22761 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22763 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Disposal (Engine U/S)
22764 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (Engine U/S)
22872 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22873 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22874 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Kendal
22876 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Morecambe
22877 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (repaint at Carlisle)
22878 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (at Plaxton Euro 6)
22879 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22880 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (in service at Kendal)
22881 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (stored at Lillyhall)
22882 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (stored at Lillyhall)
22883 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22884 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22885 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (in service at Kendal)
22886 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (stored at Morecambe)
22887 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22888 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (stored at Morecambe)
22889 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
22890 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
24116 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (in service at Barrow)
24117 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Barrow
24118 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Disposal (Engine U/S)
24120 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle (moving to Gilmoss)
24121 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
24122 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
24124 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Reserve (transfer to Gilmoss)
24169 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Carlisle
24171 MAN 18.240 - Enviro 300 Disposal (Engine U/S)

winston270twm · 14 Apr 2019

Surreyman said:
Agreed one sale to one party.
I would expect whoever buys the whole group to carry out a review of the whole business, this might result in the sale of some parts.
Would Arriva Uk Bus, or at least parts of it, operating in a deregulated market (excluding London) be seen as a more risky or less profitable long term investment?

That's assuming one party at an acceptable price comes along. UK & European ops should be easy enough to split in two and may attract more bidders / command a higher price.

London isn't that profitable market, and recently we've been seeing pvr cuts / route mergers to decrease the TfL losses.

LOL The Irony · 14 Apr 2019

goldisgood said:
Particularly as Stagecoach now only have their buses in the UK, it would be good to get a foothold elsewhere.

They had a foothold in mainland Europe in the form of Megabus & Polskibus but wound up eventually selling them both of them to Flixbus.

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Apr 2019

LOL The Irony said:
They had a foothold in mainland Europe in the form of Megabus & Polskibus but wound up eventually selling them both of them to Flixbus.

They’ve had other ops across the world at various times including Malawi. I used them in Portugal - really bizarre seeing the same uniforms, moquette and flooring in Cascais as I was used to in Chorlton!!

Robertj21a · 14 Apr 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
They’ve had other ops across the world at various times including Malawi. I used them in Portugal - really bizarre seeing the same uniforms, moquette and flooring in Cascais as I was used to in Chorlton!!

Not forgetting Hong Kong and New Zealand !

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Apr 2019

Robertj21a said:
Not forgetting Hong Kong and New Zealand !

And Sweden too

158756 · 15 Apr 2019

LancasterRed said:
I've had some time now acclimatising to the new timetable in Lancaster and it's about 18bph from the University to the city. Ideally you want to get a 1 but others will make do. A lot of people aren't aware of the 41 and 42 but they do a great job and I don't see why uniriders wouldn't be allowed on them. (I don't have one)

But sadly, 18 is still not enough. The overcrowding situation is still ridiculous - at night as there are so few buses you can easily get a couple hundred trying to get onto one or two buses. During the day it's equally as much carnage - and each 1 leaves just as sardined as the next

The new campus opens at the end of this academic year. Two new colleges are rumoured to be being added to Lancaster University's collegiate and the University is taking in even more people every year. New developments are going up all the time.

I think Stagecoach in Lancaster are generally excellent, but this isn't going to end well.

I think Stagecoach have been surprised by the recent increase in passengers. The university I don't think has grown that much. Perhaps it's because no new halls have been built, so the increase in students must be entirely accommodated in the city - hence using the bus and, having uniriders, not being bothered by the cost of extra journeys.

My observations from semi-frequent visits to the university are that the advertised frequency doesn't actually run, with buses delayed by traffic or volume of passengers. Maybe students don't know about the 41/42 - I had the lower deck to myself on an early afternoon 42 from the city centre a few weeks ago. On another trip I gave up on the bus in the queue on Greaves Road and overtook a further three buses on my walk to the station.

While the demand might be there, I suspect there might be a profitability issue for more buses - it's largely going to be a case of shorter waits or less crowding for people who would buy (discounted) tickets regardless on a highly seasonal route. And there's no competition, or threat of it, to create the kind of situation seen in Manchester.

Strathclyder · 16 Apr 2019

Robertj21a said:
Not forgetting Hong Kong and New Zealand !

In addition to their short-lived Hong Kong venture (operating residential services (801R/802R) initially using 5 Volvo B10M coaches, followed by 6 Volvo Olympians; both bodied by Alexander), they also owned one of the largest franchised H.K operators (Citybus of Hong Kong) for nearly 4 years (July 1999 to June 2003). When Stagecoach H.K. ceased operations in April 1996, the B10Ms went to New Zealand, while the Olympians were sold to Citybus (rather ironic given future events lol).

Further to the latter point, several buses were repainted in a special Stagecoach scheme to reflect Stagecoach's ownership of Citybus. These were (in no particular order):

A Alexander-bodied Volvo Olympian (HU 3984/656)
A all-MAN NL262 (HP 6440/1501)
A Volgren-bodied MAN 24.350 (HN 1013/2500)
A Volgren-bodied Scania K94UB (KJ 1502/2800)
A Duple Metsec DM5000-bodied Dennis Trident (HN 4366/2201)

A Plaxton Pointer-bodied Volvo B6LE (HP 3681/1327) also received Stagecoach Stripes, but am not sure if it ever saw service in H.K. in that livery (am aware that several ex-Citybus B6s came back to the UK for further service, but have no clue if 1327 was among them).

Mwanesh · 16 Apr 2019

I remember Stagecoach also used to do the Malawi -Zimbabwe route via Tete .They used the Hood Road Southerton depot in Zimbabwe or 109 Belvedere Road i think the depots are still there will check on Google

LOL The Irony · 16 Apr 2019

Mwanesh said:
I remember Stagecoach also used to do the Malawi -Zimbabwe route via Tete .They used the Hood Road Southerton depot in Zimbabwe or 109 Belvedere Road i think the depots are still there will check on Google

They also had operations in Kenya, I think. Some of the Magicbus Olympian's were from Kenya.

GusB · 16 Apr 2019

LOL The Irony said:
They also had operations in Kenya, I think. Some of the Magicbus Olympian's were from Kenya.

I'm looking at an old fleet handbook from 1992, and they had two interests in Kenya at the time - Nairobi and Mombasa. Other overseas ventures were Malawi, Gray Coach in Canada and Speedybus Enterprises in China. The latter was an interesting arrangement in that some of the vehicles were supplied to the operating company in return for the advertising revenue. I never really followed their overseas adventures, though. When did the African ventures come to an end?

Bluebirdscot66 · 17 Apr 2019

Shifting topic does anyone know the status of blochairn depot ( former depot) it’s been closed since 2016 but recently I’ve seen people in working there on the shutters and other stuff , just wondering if maybe a reopening or was it sold off .

LancasterRed · 17 Apr 2019

chiltern trev said:
We visit Morecambe every other week, and have lunch in Sainsbury's cafe at lunchtime (Usually Friday)- all the 1s going past both way are very empty. And the same goes for all the 2s in the afternoon on the Morecambe West Promenade (about 0.5 mile from the turn off for Bare).
So are the Morecambe legs of the 1 and 2 really that busy at other times to justify double deckers?

So is the answer more duplicates on the 1?

I'd tail more of them at Common Garden Street. A few are now - which works as there isn't demand after CGS - but yeah not enough as seen by the lack of passengers.

At peak times at the underpass you probably won't get the first bus. 8-11:45pm on a Wednesday or Friday? You definitely won't. As has happened to me before, I've been standing on a rammed 2 after a few 1s have filled.

Strathclyder · 17 Apr 2019

LOL The Irony said:
They also had operations in Kenya, I think. Some of the Magicbus Olympian's were from Kenya.

The Megabus Leyland Olympians actually came from Citybus of Hong Kong, the majority of the Manchester Magicbus triaxle deckers being Duple Metsec-bodied Dennis Dragons repatriated from Kenya after the African ventures were wound up. These were latterly complemented by a handful of ex-Kowloon Motor Bus Leyland Olympians. Am assuming these are what you had in mind?

LOL The Irony · 17 Apr 2019

Strathclyder said:
The Megabus Leyland Olympians actually came from Citybus of Hong Kong, the majority of the Manchester Magicbus triaxle deckers being Duple Metsec-bodied Dennis Dragons repatriated from Kenya after the African ventures were wound up. These were latterly complemented by a handful of ex-Kowloon Motor Bus Leyland Olympians. Am assuming these are what you had in mind?

I mixed up the Megabus Olympians with the Magicbus Dragons.

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