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Portishead Line

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pdeaves

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While this is clearly better than nothing, a 30mph service every hour has the appearance of a heritage railway operation. How is it so slow?
As per post 25. Possible track geometry drives maximum speed. The line was originally built single track, low speed in a very constrained site (that is now a SSSI). There's not a lot that can be done without politically- and environmentally-sensitive land take.
 
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Sounds very Borders line-ish. Only being built for the sole purpose to make themselves (government / whoever is in charge of the Bristol area) popular. Built as physically cheap as possible and then within a few years sorely regretting having not done it properly, due to the actual popularity of the service.
 

mr_jrt

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As per post 25. Possible track geometry drives maximum speed. The line was originally built single track, low speed in a very constrained site (that is now a SSSI). There's not a lot that can be done without politically- and environmentally-sensitive land take.

Presumably any land take could be like-for-like swappable though? i.e. you ease a curve on one side of the formation and free up the old formation on the other...?
 

Bletchleyite

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There's sod all point spending lots of money on new infrastructure for a once-per-hour service in an urban area. It really should be every 30 minutes minimum (preferably more frequent) in an urban area, or don't bother at all. Otherwise it is just not going to generate modal shift. And 30mph maximum? Yeah, that'll get people out of cars!

Get it built, and it can be enhanced later. People do use hourly services around cities with low average speeds, there are (or have been) a number of those around Manchester over the years.
 

Brissle Girl

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Presumably any land take could be like-for-like swappable though? i.e. you ease a curve on one side of the formation and free up the old formation on the other...?
Nor really. Bear in mind the line runs down the Avon Gorge squeezed between the cliffs and the river. Taking land on one side means gouging bits out of the cliff (the sensitive bit environmentally). Saying you've now left a 3m (or whatever) strip of former railway between the new formation and the river bank is hardly replacing like with like.
 

DDB

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The maximum speed sounds like it would be hard to fix but is it possible to make passive provision for a passing loop in the right place to increase frequency later? I.e. run the track down one side of the future loop location so the other track can be installed without closing the first line except for finally connecting the loop?
 

MarkyT

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The maximum speed sounds like it would be hard to fix but is it possible to make passive provision for a passing loop in the right place to increase frequency later? I.e. run the track down one side of the future loop location so the other track can be installed without closing the first line except for finally connecting the loop?

I'd say a loop at Pill station should be possible in the future, and combined with some double track extension at the Bristol end should allow future half hourly service with capacity for Portbury freight as well. I suspect one or two intermediate signals along the single line will be necessary too so a freight and a passenger can run through flighted closely together. The original 50mph plan had very short turnrounds at Portishead but a Pill loop will result in a much longer layover that will probably increase rolling stock requirements, but should help service resilience.
 

vlad

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While this is clearly better than nothing, a 30mph service every hour has the appearance of a heritage railway operation. How is it so slow?

Crewe to Derby is a 40mph service every hour. I'd argue that you get a better service on a heritage railway.
 

pdeaves

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The maximum speed sounds like it would be hard to fix but is it possible to make passive provision for a passing loop in the right place to increase frequency later? I.e. run the track down one side of the future loop location so the other track can be installed without closing the first line except for finally connecting the loop?
The thing is, the right place for a loop requires extensive civil engineering works in an area not suitable for it (see Brissle Girl's post).
 

MarkyT

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The thing is, the right place for a loop requires extensive civil engineering works in an area not suitable for it (see Brissle Girl's post).
I suppose the problem with a loop at Pill is that it would require two new platforms, with the additional expense entailed. However a loop between stations is ideally a pretty long and expensive 'dynamic' affair in order that both trains can enter and pass at speed, rather than one direction having to make an additional stop to wait for the other.
 

Brissle Girl

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I suppose the problem with a loop at Pill is that it would require two new platforms, with the additional expense entailed. However a loop between stations is ideally a pretty long and expensive 'dynamic' affair in order that both trains can enter and pass at speed, rather than one direction having to make an additional stop to wait for the other.
The main problem with a loop at Pill is that it’s in completely the wrong place, being reached no more than 5 mins after leaving Portishead. (We can expect the rebuilt section of line to have “normal” running speeds.) You can’t design a sensible timetable around that.
 

DDB

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The main problem with a loop at Pill is that it’s in completely the wrong place, being reached no more than 5 mins after leaving Portishead. (We can expect the rebuilt section of line to have “normal” running speeds.) You can’t design a sensible timetable around that.

I'm only looking at satellite photos on Google maps but would extending the existing double track from the junction until the line meets the gorge be in the right place? From the photos it looks like it mainly runs alongside allotments?
 

MarkyT

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The main problem with a loop at Pill is that it’s in completely the wrong place, being reached no more than 5 mins after leaving Portishead. (We can expect the rebuilt section of line to have “normal” running speeds.) You can’t design a sensible timetable around that.
Understand and agree a long turn round layover at Portishead would mean a half hour service would probably require an extra unit over a plan with the passing place in a better place. Also requires expensive provision of two accessible platforms at Pill which the original plan didn't envisage. An advantage of a long layover might be greater resilience to recover from previous late running, but probably not quite long enough to schedule a crew PNB there. Is the preferred option to extend double track from Ashton Gate further to the passing place or provide an extra loop at the appropriate site?
 

Cletus

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This documentary from 2008 I think, is doing the rounds on one of the Sky channels. It includes Simon Calder doing a commute into Bristol with a Portishead resident.


Travel journalist Simon Calder takes a journey from across the south of England - by bike, rail and car. In this documentary film, Simon explores the legacy of the Beeching railway cuts. He examines the arguments for reopening some of the branch lines axed in the 1960s. Content licensed from Grace Productions. Any queries, please contact us at: [email protected]
 

duffield

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Get it built, and it can be enhanced later. People do use hourly services around cities with low average speeds, there are (or have been) a number of those around Manchester over the years.

Exactly. This is a case where 'doing it right' first time means it will probably not happen at all; once it's up and running it will be popular despite the low speed due to the appalling congestion on the roads. And once it's running and popular it'll be much easier to justify enhancements.

Also, the 30mph issue seems overstated to me. The section of line along the gorge, i.e. the sensitive difficult bit, is only about 4km/2.5 miles so if the rest of the line can be improved this section would only add a couple of minutes to the journey at 30mph vs 50mph.
 

BigCj34

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Exactly. This is a case where 'doing it right' first time means it will probably not happen at all; once it's up and running it will be popular despite the low speed due to the appalling congestion on the roads. And once it's running and popular it'll be much easier to justify enhancements.

Also, the 30mph issue seems overstated to me. The section of line along the gorge, i.e. the sensitive difficult bit, is only about 4km/2.5 miles so if the rest of the line can be improved this section would only add a couple of minutes to the journey at 30mph vs 50mph.

It's rather perverse but very true. Had the cost cutting measures not been implemented with the Borders line then it may never have been built in the first place. Now that it has been, politicians and the relevant railway bodies would be almost obliged to make the improvements, as shutting down a line nowadays in Great Britain is MUCH harder than not opening one. Network Rail spent millions fixing the Settle Carlisle route following the landslide in 2015, even though it's presumably far from a profitable route.
 

HowardGWR

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Exactly. This is a case where 'doing it right' first time means it will probably not happen at all; once it's up and running it will be popular despite the low speed due to the appalling congestion on the roads. And once it's running and popular it'll be much easier to justify enhancements.

Also, the 30mph issue seems overstated to me. The section of line along the gorge, i.e. the sensitive difficult bit, is only about 4km/2.5 miles so if the rest of the line can be improved this section would only add a couple of minutes to the journey at 30mph vs 50mph.
I agree, build it while the going is good. The line used to be double out from Ashton through Ciifton Bridge station and beyond there was a siding. Then, after that, only about two miles westwards, there was a long loop at Oakwood just east of Ham Green Halte. Then a bit further, the line was double through Pill onwards and there were further sidings towards Portbury, which leaves room for more doubling.
Thus I think that the line could most likely be all double save for the two miles alongside the river. With a little 'future proofing' I would hope that it would only be a few years before a half hourly service or better could be provided after this doubling work. I am just wondering if the morning rush into Bristol (and reverse in the evening) could be catered for by stationing two trains at Portishead and abandoning one service in the reverse direction, making for a half hour service at those peak times with a long gap in the other direction?
 
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Brissle Girl

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Exactly. This is a case where 'doing it right' first time means it will probably not happen at all; once it's up and running it will be popular despite the low speed due to the appalling congestion on the roads. And once it's running and popular it'll be much easier to justify enhancements.

Also, the 30mph issue seems overstated to me. The section of line along the gorge, i.e. the sensitive difficult bit, is only about 4km/2.5 miles so if the rest of the line can be improved this section would only add a couple of minutes to the journey at 30mph vs 50mph.
Which contradicts the view that only running at 30mph will make the whole service unattractive. We’ve waited long enough, let’s get it built and hopefully its success will justify the funds to improve it. And even if not, two 4 car services arriving just before 8am and 9am will still provide 600 seats and a few more standing, which will reduce congestion and emissions on the Portbury Hundred and onward into Bristol.
 

Class 170101

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I suppose the problem with a loop at Pill is that it would require two new platforms, with the additional expense entailed. However a loop between stations is ideally a pretty long and expensive 'dynamic' affair in order that both trains can enter and pass at speed, rather than one direction having to make an additional stop to wait for the other.

Understand and agree a long turn round layover at Portishead would mean a half hour service would probably require an extra unit over a plan with the passing place in a better place. Also requires expensive provision of two accessible platforms at Pill which the original plan didn't envisage. An advantage of a long layover might be greater resilience to recover from previous late running, but probably not quite long enough to schedule a crew PNB there. Is the preferred option to extend double track from Ashton Gate further to the passing place or provide an extra loop at the appropriate site?

Why two platforms needed? How about a Penryn(?) style arrangement?
 

SoccerHQ

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How many carriages for this, 2 or 3 like the Bedminster-Parson-Street-Weston stopper?
 

Chester1

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Which contradicts the view that only running at 30mph will make the whole service unattractive. We’ve waited long enough, let’s get it built and hopefully its success will justify the funds to improve it. And even if not, two 4 car services arriving just before 8am and 9am will still provide 600 seats and a few more standing, which will reduce congestion and emissions on the Portbury Hundred and onward into Bristol.

Would 4 coaches be the limit? An hourly service is not ideal for any commuter service and will surpres demand but its clearly a case of this plan or nothing. With only 2 stations it would be sensible to copy Borders and build the platforms for 6 coaches and passive provision for 9 coaches. That will provide enough capacity for future growth without significant funding being necessary.
 

pdeaves

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Would 4 coaches be the limit? An hourly service is not ideal for any commuter service and will surpres demand but its clearly a case of this plan or nothing. With only 2 stations it would be sensible to copy Borders and build the platforms for 6 coaches and passive provision for 9 coaches. That will provide enough capacity for future growth without significant funding being necessary.
It's being designed for 5-car.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Would 4 coaches be the limit? An hourly service is not ideal for any commuter service and will surpres demand but its clearly a case of this plan or nothing. With only 2 stations it would be sensible to copy Borders and build the platforms for 6 coaches and passive provision for 9 coaches. That will provide enough capacity for future growth without significant funding being necessary.

Regarding the hourly service: Although that's not great for Pill and Portishead, it will mean that Bedminster and Parson Street will get 2tph. Provided the timetable doesn't space those trains too close together, that will make those two stations more attractive for commuter traffic, so hopefully will increase patronage there.
 

Brissle Girl

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It's being designed for 5-car.
Even better then. A 165+166 would give around 450 seats, so 900 with two arrivals between 7am and 9am. Now I expect some of those will be commuters that previously used the bus, but still a major environmental improvement. And will ease congestion for those not travelling into central Bristol too who still need to drive - a point that I suspect is often lost by those considering the benefits.
 

Brissle Girl

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Regarding the hourly service: Although that's not great for Pill and Portishead, it will mean that Bedminster and Parson Street will get 2tph. Provided the timetable doesn't space those trains too close together, that will make those two stations more attractive for commuter traffic, so hopefully will increase patronage there.
They are already 2 tph in the peak, which seems adequate given the number of pax (which is increasing quite quickly it has to be said).
 

Meerkat

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Is there any thought to putting in a P&R station at J19 Portbury? Could get the passenger levels up to a level justifying line improvements, or is there just no practicable way of doing it?
 

Brissle Girl

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One of the main problems is the queues to Jn 19 from Portishead, so unfortunately that would not help. And other commuters coming up the M5 will very soon be able to use the new P&R station close to Jn 18 which is about to start construction adjacent to the existing P&R car park.

The irony though is that over the last year a humongously big tarmaced car park has been built next to the disused railway at Portbury to add to the existing enormous standings. It’s already completely full with cars awaiting onward movement in or out of the docks.
 
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