Northern Rail cancelled train

A long story, sorry about that, but, I'd be interested in the views of the experts on here!
On Saturday 2 March, a group of 4 of us travelled from London to Burnley and back, on advance tickets.
(We went to watch the Burnley v Palace game, not that it's relevant!)
Journey to Burnley, via Preston, was fine.
On the way back, our booked train from Burnley Manchester Road was cancelled.
We were booked from there to Leeds, and then back to London Kings Cross, on the last train of the day from Leeds to London.
Knowing that our train from Burnley was cancelled, we got a taxi from there to Leeds, at a cost of about £125, and did make our train to London, and so, were not actually delayed.
However, that was only because we paid about £125 for the taxi.
I wrote to Northern Rail, explaining the situation, enclosing the train tickets and reservations, and a printout of the taxi receipt from Uber (it helpfully showed a map of our journey).
Yesterday, I received a cheque for about £53, which, though not explained in the covering letter, was the cost of the train tickets for our journey from Burnley to London.
I never asked for delay replay, as we weren't delayed, but, I do think it was reasonable to request reimbursement of the taxi fare, as we would otherwise never had made it to Leeds in time for the last train back to London.
Should I accept the £53 for a 'delayed' journey, or, should I hold out for reimbursement of the taxi fare?
Your thoughts would be welcome.
Thanks in advance!

well, others will have more advice but my understanding is that it is the train company's job to get you back if you miss the last train due to a train company failing to provide advertised service / booked connection etc, so in theory when train from Burnley was Canceled - I see it is unstaffed with no help point at time of your travel, you presumably should have (maybe) rung Northern Customer services and asked what to do as you would miss your last connection to London, and only got a taxi if they told you to do so, or sent one to get you to Leeds.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/BYM/details.html

Alternatively you could / should have waited for the next departure from Burnley, (assume there was one?) got on and asked the guard what you should have done when you get to Leeds, you having missed the booked last London train, he should have rung Northern Control and got you an answer.

Failing that, when you got to Leeds on the next train present your selves at Northern counter and ask what they were going to do about - which presumably would be to put you up in a hotel at their expense. More costly than paying you for the taxi you took it upon yourself to book and pay for.

So guven that if you did any of the above it would probably cost Northern more, I'd hold out for re-imbursemnt of the taxi fare, if they then refuse, ask Passenger Focus (if that is what they are now called) too consider the case. Keep copies of your tickets etc in case needed to use them.

I assume there was some reason why you did not go back via Preston to Euston, eg a booked itinerary on a cheaper service?

bhb said:

A long story, sorry about that, but, I'd be interested in the views of the experts on here!
On Saturday 2 March, a group of 4 of us travelled from London to Burnley and back, on advance tickets.
(We went to watch the Burnley v Palace game, not that it's relevant!)
Journey to Burnley, via Preston, was fine.
On the way back, our booked train from Burnley Manchester Road was cancelled.
We were booked from there to Leeds, and then back to London Kings Cross, on the last train of the day from Leeds to London.
Knowing that our train from Burnley was cancelled, we got a taxi from there to Leeds, at a cost of about £125, and did make our train to London, and so, were not actually delayed.
However, that was only because we paid about £125 for the taxi.
I wrote to Northern Rail, explaining the situation, enclosing the train tickets and reservations, and a printout of the taxi receipt from Uber (it helpfully showed a map of our journey).
Yesterday, I received a cheque for about £53, which, though not explained in the covering letter, was the cost of the train tickets for our journey from Burnley to London.
I never asked for delay replay, as we weren't delayed, but, I do think it was reasonable to request reimbursement of the taxi fare, as we would otherwise never had made it to Leeds in time for the last train back to London.
Should I accept the £53 for a 'delayed' journey, or, should I hold out for reimbursement of the taxi fare?
Your thoughts would be welcome.
Thanks in advance!

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It's a bit of a tricky one. I think the strictly speaking correct thing to have done would have been to try and contact Northern, be that using a phone or by speaking to a member of staff at the earliest opportunity (be that on the next train from Burnley or otherwise), and then to ask them to make alternative arrangements (likely either a taxi to somewhere you could have caught a train to, or an overnight hotel). But then on the other hand, if they'd have done that then I can't see that it'd have cost them any less to get you to Leeds, and it's perfectly reasonable of you to have organised your own taxi in the circumstances.

If they refuse the difference between what they have paid so far and what the taxi cost you, I would certainly take the matter further - e.g. to the Rail Ombudsman. However, if this situation arises in future then I'd recommend taking the next available train(s) and asking for assistance at the earliest opportunity. You're not only going to retain your right to travel, but you may then end up being entitled to delay compensation if the resultant delay is 15 minutes or more (assuming it's a delay caused by Northern - on most companies the threshold is still 30 minutes). As it is, you've had to incur out of pocket expenditure and aren't entitled to anything more than reimbursement of what you shelled out on top of your tickets.

WesternLancer said:

So guven that if you did any of the above it would probably cost Northern more, I'd hold out for re-imbursemnt of the taxi fare, if they then refuse, ask Passenger Focus (if that is what they are now called) too consider the case. Keep copies of your tickets etc in case needed to use them.

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I agree with most of what you have said. Just one correction - there is now an official Rail Ombudsman. We're just not sure they are any more competent than Transport Focus. At least their decisions are now binding on the TOC, which is helpful if they do come to the correct conclusion.

Was the booking office at Burnley Manchester Road open? It is usually staffed at that time on a Saturday, so the correct course of action would have been to seek assistance there.

Sorry about the hindsight post, but 18:38 Burnley to Todmorden, 19:07 Todmorden to Leeds would have got you in for 20:03

As others have said, hold out for a reimbursement although technically you should have contacted Northern to have them advise / book for you.

Just as an aside, as it may be raised by Northern, but £125 for a private hire is exceptionally steep for a journey of that distance. Did they use the motorways or the more direct route, as the difference is over 20 miles between the two?

johntea said:

Sorry about the hindsight post, but 18:38 Burnley to Todmorden, 19:07 Todmorden to Leeds would have got you in for 20:03

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The 18:38 was our booked train, and was cancelled (it ran non stop through Burnley Manchester Road)

Bantamzen said:

As others have said, hold out for a reimbursement although technically you should have contacted Northern to have them advise / book for you.

Just as an aside, as it may be raised by Northern, but £125 for a private hire is exceptionally steep for a journey of that distance. Did they use the motorways or the more direct route, as the difference is over 20 miles between the two?

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The taxi used the motorway route.

Thanks for all your replies. I'm going to ask Northern again to refund the taxi fare.

As others have stated, if we had just waited for the next train from Burnley to Leeds, it would have cost them a lot more to get us home in a taxi from Leeds to London.

clagmonster said:

Was the booking office at Burnley Manchester Road open? It is usually staffed at that time on a Saturday, so the correct course of action would have been to seek assistance there.

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NRES station details does not indicate it is supposed to be open at that time, but of course they could be wrong!

"Just one correction - there is now an official Rail Ombudsman."

Thanks for that For the Love of

bhb said:

As others have stated, if we had just waited for the next train from Burnley to Leeds, it would have cost them a lot more to get us home in a taxi from Leeds to London.

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There is, though, a reasonable argument that if you had contacted them when you knew about the cancellation they would have advised on different travel arrangements that would have cost them rather less than £125.

Haywain said:

There is, though, a reasonable argument that if you had contacted them when you knew about the cancellation they would have advised on different travel arrangements that would have cost them rather less than £125.

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What arrangements could those have been though? There were no more London trains that could have been reached from Preston. The train from Leeds was the last London train of the day. Manchester wouldn't have been any use either. And I think it would be unreasonably stretching the point of someone having to reasonably mitigate their losses if they were required to contact the company and deal with their inevitably useless customer services, potentially losing the alternative of the taxi in the process.

bhb said:

Thanks for all your replies. I'm going to ask Northern again to refund the taxi fare.

As others have stated, if we had just waited for the next train from Burnley to Leeds, it would have cost them a lot more to get us home in a taxi from Leeds to London.

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I think you need to make clear points along the lines of (if all accurate points)

- the cancelled train meant we knew that we would miss the last connection of the day to London, the destination of our booked tickets
- we could not reasonably delay the decision to book a taxi on our own initiative to Leeds, as that would have lost us the chance of catching that last London train, on which we had through booked tickets
- there were no Northern staff at Burnley Manchester Road to ask advice or assistance from (if this is true)
- we did not have time to ring Northern Customer Services to ask for advice as it would have risked delayed arrival at Leeds and the missed connection onto the last London train
- we arrived by taxi at Leeds with minutes to spare to get the last London Train (the train that was our booked connection) so we had no time to seek out Northern staff at Leeds to obtain further advice and assistance.

The decision of Northern to cancel our train (by cancelling the booked stop at Burnley) did not result in any advice over the PA system or customer information screens on what passengers with onward connections should do. We had to take quick decision or risk being unable to get home to London on the last train of the day. The costs we incurred were not unreasonable, and would be less than the costs we would have incurred had we had to rely on Northern's Customer Promise responsibility to get us home or provide overnight accommodation - bearing in mind there were 4 of us in the group.
See page 14 of the pdf linked form here which makes it clear what they would have done:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/passengers-charter

I would therefore request that you consider the repayment of the taxi fare we incurred in full. If you are unable to do this I would be grateful for a clear explanation of why this is not possible.

ForTheLoveOf said:

What arrangements could those have been though? .

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A useful customer service reaction could have been to arrange (or advise the OP to arrange and agree to reimburse) a taxi from Burnley to a more proximate station (e.g. Todmorden) if there was a later train from there which would have connected with their booked service from Leeds.

Perhaps by the time the customer became aware of the cancellation it was beyond the ability of Northern's customer service to react in this way, but unless the customer gives the company at least the opportunity to (fail to) make arrangements to get them to their destination, it's difficult for the customer to argue that they are liable to be reimbursed by the company for whatever arrangements they make for themselves.

ForTheLoveOf said:

There were no more London trains that could have been reached from Preston.

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Really? Not even the 20:05 to Euston?

ForTheLoveOf said:

Manchester wouldn't have been any use either.

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Why? What was wrong with the 20:35 to Euston?

ForTheLoveOf said:

What arrangements could those have been though?

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Arrangements to get the OP on an alternative train at a more convenient location where the was ample time for the road journey. Both are substantially shorter road journeys, and the TOC are likely to have arrangements with taxi companies regarding pricing.

I agree that you should always try and contact the train company. I was recently stranded at Livingston South station when a train was cancelled at very short notice. I used the help point to speak to someoe about my journey and ask them if they could provide a taxi to Livingston North. This would have offered me an on time arrival. They said no. I tried to explain that it would be better for both of us if they organised a taxi because I would arrive on time and it was only a short taxi journey. They insisted that, as another train from Livingston South would leave 60 minutes after the booked one, I should wait for this. I was forced to wait at the cold, boring Livingston South station for an extended period and then they had to pay me a large sum in compensation for the delay they'd caused, which amounted to all of my fare back.

I agree you should always contact the train company and ask politely for them to make alternative arrangements. But it's my experience that they won't actually do so, until forced. I can understand why it might seem fruitless to even try. If you're going to be stranded overnight this is exceptionally important.

Starmill said:

I agree that you should always try and contact the train company. I was recently stranded at Livingston South station when a train was cancelled at very short notice. I used the help point to speak to someoe about my journey and ask them if they could provide a taxi to Livingston North. This would have offered me an on time arrival. They said no. I tried to explain that it would be better for both of us if they organised a taxi because I would arrive on time and it was only a short taxi journey. They insisted that, as another train from Livingston South would leave 60 minutes after the booked one, I should wait for this. I was forced to wait at the cold, boring Livingston South station for an extended period and then they had to pay me a large sum in compensation for the delay they'd caused, which amounted to all of my fare back.

I agree you should always contact the train company and ask politely for them to make alternative arrangements. But it's my experience that they won't actually do so, until forced. I can understand why it might seem fruitless to even try. If you're going to be stranded overnight this is exceptionally important.

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Yes, and when station help points seem to connect you to NRES (not sure if Northern's do this or not) where overseas based call centre staff seem to have little grasp of what to do in such situations, or no discretion beyond reading a script of train times, hanging about talking to them is often of little use. Moreover, there should be no assumption you have a mobile phone with you to contact such places as customer services, by any other method. My parents would not have one for example.

But it should be for Northern to reply and explain why they may not give greater compensation that that which they have already sent to the OP really - eg explain that if the OP had contacted them (Northern) after they cancellation announcement they would have advised on other trains / routes etc (after all, it's not unreasonable for the OP to believe they only had the option of a Leeds route rtn journey and would have thought that they would miss the last train). I suppose the OP could have just waited for the next train to Leeds as per their routed ticket and let Northern sort out the consequences when they arrived at Leeds after the last connection to London.

Haywain said:

Really? Not even the 20:05 to Euston?

Why? What was wrong with the 20:35 to Euston?

Arrangements to get the OP on an alternative train at a more convenient location where the was ample time for the road journey. Both are substantially shorter road journeys, and the TOC are likely to have arrangements with taxi companies regarding pricing.

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While those would appear to work worth remembering that would be involving another operator who may or may not have been willing to help.

To me it comes down to whether or not the customer has acted in a reasonable manner and I find it hard to argue that OP didn't in this case. If there are no staff available then I can see how someone would think they need to make there own way to Leeds as per the itinerary. It does not seem fair to assume that people should think about alternative routings or whether there are later trains from Manchester than Leeds.

Obviously ideally you would get in touch with Northern before doing anything but from experience that is not always as easy as it should be.

Smidster said:

While those would appear to work worth remembering that would be involving another operator who may or may not have been willing to help.

To me it comes down to whether or not the customer has acted in a reasonable manner and I find it hard to argue that OP didn't in this case. If there are no staff available then I can see how someone would think they need to make there own way to Leeds as per the itinerary. It does not seem fair to assume that people should think about alternative routings or whether there are later trains from Manchester than Leeds.

Obviously ideally you would get in touch with Northern before doing anything but from experience that is not always as easy as it should be.

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My point was not that the OP should have considered such trains, but that Northern may well have considered them and sent the OP on a considerably shorter taxi journey. However, Northern were not given any opportunity to have a say in the matter.

Haywain said:

My point was not that the OP should have considered such trains, but that Northern may well have considered them and sent the OP on a considerably shorter taxi journey. However, Northern were not given any opportunity to have a say in the matter.

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With hindsight, I agree with that. However, we had a short time to make the decision.
Also, in their letter with the cheque, that point was never addressed.
Furthermore, they apologised for the delayed journey, when, in fact, I had never claimed that the journey had been delayed.
It suggested to me that they hadn't read my letter.

bhb said:

With hindsight, I agree with that. However, we had a short time to make the decision.
Also, in their letter with the cheque, that point was never addressed.
Furthermore, they apologised for the delayed journey, when, in fact, I had never claimed that the journey had been delayed.
It suggested to me that they hadn't read my letter.

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Yes, you have just been sent the std cut and paste reply with a sum because it costs too much to employ (enough) people to read the detail and act with discretion. That's why you need to write back and argue for the full sum and be prepared to refer it to the ombudsman if that fails.

Bank the cheque you have been sent in the mean time tho!