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Kenilworth -> Hereford permitted routes

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Adam Williams

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Sadly the calculator is broken so I'm directly looking at the routeing guide for this journey.

Kenilworth seems to be associated with the Leamington Spa and Coventry routeing points. I'm looking at this fare (marked any permitted) and wondering if I can travel via Leamington Spa on the weekend to avoid the engineering works between Berkswell and Coventry and requirement to use a rail replacement bus service.

In the yellow pages, BB+HB is suggested for LMS->HFD. However, I am not sure if I can use this route. The forums guide states in the case that one station (here, Kenilworth) is not a routeing point I need to carry out a fare check:

>If there is no common RP, then if either the origin or destination of the ticket are not Routeing Points, you must complete a fares check, see 3.4.4 Fare-check rule.

>If the origin station is not a Routeing Point, find the single fare(s) from each Routeing Point associated with the origin station to the destination station

The LMS->HFD SOS is £30.30. The COV->HFD SDS is £23.70. Hence, I think the fare check fails and I can only use the Coventry routeing point.

Does this sound correct?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

ForTheLoveOf

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Adam Williams said:
Sadly the calculator is broken so I'm directly looking at the routeing guide for this journey.

Kenilworth seems to be associated with the Leamington Spa and Coventry routeing points. I'm looking at this fare (marked any permitted) and wondering if I can travel via Leamington Spa on the weekend to avoid the engineering works between Berkswell and Coventry and requirement to use a rail replacement bus service.

In the yellow pages, BB+HB is suggested for LMS->HFD. However, I am not sure if I can use this route. The forums guide states in the case that one station (here, Kenilworth) is not a routeing point I need to carry out a fare check:

>If there is no common RP, then if either the origin or destination of the ticket are not Routeing Points, you must complete a fares check, see 3.4.4 Fare-check rule.

>If the origin station is not a Routeing Point, find the single fare(s) from each Routeing Point associated with the origin station to the destination station

The LMS->HFD SOS is £30.30. The COV->HFD SDS is £23.70. Hence, I think the fare check fails and I can only use the Coventry routeing point.

Does this sound correct?
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I've sent you a PM.
 
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JB_B

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Unfortunately, it's not possible to evaluate the appropriate routeing points for Kenilworth using the public-facing information at

http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide


Although DfT have claimed that "fares, routeing and timetable information is now free for developers to access"...

(See s3.2: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...formation-on-rail-fares-ticketing.pdf#page=14 )

... the routeing information is in fact *not* made freely available by RDG for developers to access and the public-facing information is incomplete.

In particular, the mapping which allows a NFM64 fares-check (based on 1996 fares) to be carried out for post 1996 'New Stations' - such as Kenilworth - is not publicly available.

Even when rp_calc is up ( it's quite often down - as you've found today) it also struggles with new stations such as Kenilworth. I'm not sure if that's because it fails to recognize "New Stations" mappings altogether or if it's using an out of date version of the mapping (.RGX) file.
 
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yorkie

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Adam Williams said:
Kenilworth seems to be associated with the Leamington Spa and Coventry routeing points. I'm looking at this fare (marked any permitted) and wondering if I can travel via Leamington Spa...?
Click to expand...
You can travel via Leamington Spa without even consulting the Routeing Guide maps, due to the shortest route rule.
 
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alistairlees

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Adam Williams said:
Can you go into more detail on how you worked this one out? I've been playing around with http://rmme.railmiles.me/ but it seems to suggest Coventry's route is marginally shorter
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Any route within three miles of the shortest route wholly by rail is also permitted without the need to consult the routeing guide. Unless a specific ticket routeing restriction (e.g. ‘via [location]’) forbids this.
 
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Adam Williams

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alistairlees said:
Any route within three miles of the shortest route wholly by rail is also permitted without the need to consult the routeing guide. Unless a specific ticket routeing restriction (e.g. ‘via [location]’) forbids this.
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Really close, but I think it might just be outside this allowance - assuming RailMiles is correct.

KNW -> LMS: 5mi 19ch
KNW -> COV: 4mi 33ch

LMS -> BHM: 24mi 3ch
LMS -> BMO: 22mi 59ch (feels a bit like cheating to include this since it's not 'wholly by rail', but it reduces the total down a bit)

COV -> BHM: 18mi 74ch

BHM -> HFD: 55mi 5ch

Kenilworth to Hereford, via Leamington to New Street: 84.3375 mi
Kenilworth to Hereford, via Leamington to Moor Street: 83.0375 mi
Kenilworth to Hereford, via Coventry: 78.4 mi

Kingsbury Jn. said:
If it is a day trip, how about a West Midlands Day Ranger? £27.30 or £18 with a railcard. You can choose whatever route you want!
Click to expand...

This is a good shout. I've had it in the back of my head as something I should use for a while but I never seem to have a good occasion to do so, becuse most travel I do that costs more than £18 involves returning on a different day.
 
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Paul Kelly

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alistairlees said:
Any route within three miles of the shortest route wholly by rail is also permitted without the need to consult the routeing guide.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure about this - is the three mile rule documented anywhere other than the routeing guide?
 
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OwlMan

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Except for local journeys, when fares are routed either Via Coventry or Via Leamington Spa, Kenilworth is in the same fare cluster as Leamington Spa for the vast majority of journeys (including Hereford) that are Any Permitted.
The routeing point calculator uses Leamington Spa fares for Kenilworth for these any permitted fares
 
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JB_B

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Adam Williams said:
Really close, but I think it might just be outside this allowance - assuming RailMiles is correct.

KNW -> LMS: 5mi 19ch
KNW -> COV: 4mi 33ch

LMS -> BHM: 24mi 3ch
LMS -> BMO: 22mi 59ch (feels a bit like cheating to include this since it's not 'wholly by rail', but it reduces the total down a bit)

COV -> BHM: 18mi 74ch

BHM -> HFD: 55mi 5ch

Kenilworth to Hereford, via Leamington to New Street: 84.3375 mi
Kenilworth to Hereford, via Leamington to Moor Street: 83.0375 mi
Kenilworth to Hereford, via Coventry: 78.4 mi
Click to expand...

I agree - I couldn't get the 3m rule to work for you using railmiles mileages....

Shortest route wholly by rail.
78+04 (Via Coventry, avoiding New Street*)

26+03 KNW-BMO (via Leamington)
55+05 BHM-HDF

Total 81+08 ; so not within 3m.

The RG mileage data using by route-planners is slightly different (both in terms of the links included and the distances) - it would be interesting to know what mileages Yorkie came up with to get within the 3 mile limit.

(* this route clearly includes links that are not "served by a regular passenger service" as per Routeing Guide F1 - obviously that's not what railmiles is designed to do. The RG mileage data also includes some links which don't meet that test which is slightly surprising.)
 
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JB_B

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OwlMan said:
...

The routeing point calculator uses Leamington Spa fares for Kenilworth for these any permitted fares
Click to expand...

That's interesting - hopefully that implies that the .rgx mapping for KNW is LMS. If that's true then both Leamington Spa and Coventry pass the fares check as origin routeing points for KNW-HFD so the OP is fine anyway.
 
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yorkie

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Changing at LMS and BMO then walking to BHM for the direct train to HFD is 82.02 miles (Shortest possible 79.10)

Use a journey planner that allows multiple via/avoid points and you should get an itinerary (e.g. change at BMO; via: WOF, avoid: COV should suffice)
 
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