Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

dk1 · 19 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
Perhaps they shouldn't, I was actually surprised VTEC specified buffets.

Do we really gain anything important by having a buffet?

Proper coffee, hot food & a well stocked selection of cold beer & wine. Much thanks must go to VTEC for insisting this fine institution stayed on track.

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HamworthyGoods · 19 Apr 2019

irish_rail said:
I'll repeat myself shall I, yes the Paddington to Penzance route is busy all year round now except perhaps Nov Jan and feb. People take far more mini breaks than was the case traditionally and there are large populations in cities like Plymouth who want to travel.

You talk about sharing the 802s with north Cotswold and are a right those guys are all about 3very seat which is why north Cotswold should be using the 800s and the 5 car 802s, with buffets put into the 9 car 802s for wofe services. There are plenty of 9 car 800s for the Cotswold peak trains.

And please stop equating the wofe route to London to Exeter. Yes at 2 hours 15 it is not the longest in the world ( though longer than London to Leeds, Liverpool , or manchester) but the same trains continue on to Plymouth an of Cornwall which is an additional 3 hours after Exeter!!! It's like saying the London Inverness train shouldn't have buffets because some passengers are only going as far as York.

You can keep on repeating yourself as much as you want but it won’t get you 9 car 802s to Cornwall, first flaw is without considerable expense for which funding isn’t available a maximum of 1x9 car IET can go on Long Rock and once on blocks everything else on. So it’s 802 5 cars for Cornish trains and in future many of these will divide at Plymouth with the front set continuing to Penzance. Much of the localised crowding within Cornwall itself will be resolved once the 1/2 hourly service starts with many being mini HST.

There aren’t enough 800 9 cars for North Cotswolds, the 800 9 cars were built for the core table 125 routes. 802s with larger fuel tanks are needed for Cotsworlds and West of England’s where the majority of the route is on diesel.

irish_rail · 19 Apr 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
You can keep on repeating yourself as much as you want but it won’t get you 9 car 802s to Cornwall, first flaw is without considerable expense for which funding isn’t available a maximum of 1x9 car IET can go on Long Rock and once on blocks everything else on. So it’s 802 5 cars for Cornish trains and in future many of these will divide at Plymouth with the front set continuing to Penzance. Much of the localised crowding within Cornwall itself will be resolved once the 1/2 hourly service starts with many being mini HST.

There aren’t enough 800 9 cars for North Cotswolds, the 800 9 cars were built for the core table 125 routes. 802s with larger fuel tanks are needed for Cotsworlds and West of England’s where the majority of the route is on diesel.

But perfectly feasible for everything coming on and off Laira and north pole be 9 cars. That would be a start, added to one 9 car departure from long rock a much better balance would be achieved than the situation now . There are intelligent people out there who could 're jig the unit diagramming to get rid of for example 9 cars to Hereford off peak which surely should be a pair of 5 cars splitting and joining at oxford to give one example.

irish_rail · 19 Apr 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
You can keep on repeating yourself as much as you want but it won’t get you 9 car 802s to Cornwall, first flaw is without considerable expense for which funding isn’t available a maximum of 1x9 car IET can go on Long Rock and once on blocks everything else on. So it’s 802 5 cars for Cornish trains and in future many of these will divide at Plymouth with the front set continuing to Penzance. Much of the localised crowding within Cornwall itself will be resolved once the 1/2 hourly service starts with many being mini HST.

There aren’t enough 800 9 cars for North Cotswolds, the 800 9 cars were built for the core table 125 routes. 802s with larger fuel tanks are needed for Cotsworlds and West of England’s where the majority of the route is on diesel.

And to quote you "the 800 9 cars were built for the table 125 route"
Perhaps, but a proportion of the 9 car 802s were also built for the wofe route and we are being robbed of them to satisfy those in the east........

VT 390 · 19 Apr 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
You can keep on repeating yourself as much as you want but it won’t get you 9 car 802s to Cornwall, first flaw is without considerable expense for which funding isn’t available a maximum of 1x9 car IET can go on Long Rock and once on blocks everything else on. So it’s 802 5 cars for Cornish trains and in future many of these will divide at Plymouth with the front set continuing to Penzance. Much of the localised crowding within Cornwall itself will be resolved once the 1/2 hourly service starts with many being mini HST.

There aren’t enough 800 9 cars for North Cotswolds, the 800 9 cars were built for the core table 125 routes. 802s with larger fuel tanks are needed for Cotsworlds and West of England’s where the majority of the route is on diesel.

Will it though as whenever I have travelled on this route most of the people who got in at stations in Cornwall seamed to stay on all the way through to Paddington with very few compared to how many were on board getting off at Plymouth and Exeter and these people will prefer the through trains to London rather than changing. I would say that the second service each hour needs to continue through to at least Exeter all the time.

HamworthyGoods · 19 Apr 2019

VT 390 said:
Will it though as whenever I have travelled on this route most of the people who got in at stations in Cornwall seamed to stay on all the way through to Paddington with very few compared to how many were on board getting off at Plymouth and Exeter and these people will prefer the through trains to London rather than changing. I would say that the second service each hour needs to continue through to at least Exeter all the time.

Many of them will.

JonathanH · 19 Apr 2019

irish_rail said:
And to quote you "the 800 9 cars were built for the table 125 route"
Perhaps, but a proportion of the 9 car 802s were also built for the wofe route and we are being robbed of them to satisfy those in the east........

They 800/3 fleet were intended to be all electric 801/0s (which is obvious from their carriage numbering and the TARA). Quite what that would have meant in terms of North Cotswolds, Paignton and other extremities is not clear.

Is there really evidence that 9-car 802s are being 'robbed' from the WofE routes? The fact is that HSTs are still operating three of the services to Penzance, the 802/0s were introduced first and 802/1s are starting to appear on some of the Penzance workings as the final HSTs go.

irish_rail said:
But perfectly feasible for everything coming on and off Laira and north pole be 9 cars. That would be a start, added to one 9 car departure from long rock a much better balance would be achieved than the situation now . There are intelligent people out there who could 're jig the unit diagramming to get rid of for example 9 cars to Hereford off peak which surely should be a pair of 5 cars splitting and joining at oxford to give one example.

Are there not intelligent people who have had to grapple with balancing the demands of the unit diagramming already and who have had to cope with the economic reality of what train fleet can be procured against the expected ticket revenue?

If you look at the postings to IETgen there are 802/1s making it to Penzance that start at North Pole and / or end at Laira but many of the Penzance workings are at Long Rock overnight at the start or end of the day. 800/3s or pairs of 800/0s make it down to Penzance as well sometimes (although obviously not overnight) which is possibly one reason why the 802 buffet adjustment doesn't work.

Splitting at Oxford is a performance issue. It has been explained in other threads that this just wouldn't work.

Clarence Yard · 19 Apr 2019

irish_rail said:
And to quote you "the 800 9 cars were built for the table 125 route"
Perhaps, but a proportion of the 9 car 802s were also built for the wofe route and we are being robbed of them to satisfy those in the east........

No you aren’t. Only a small proportion of the overall 802 9 car fleet was built for the west and they will be diagrammed as intended. There will be no reduction in that.

Parallel · 19 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
Perhaps they shouldn't, I was actually surprised VTEC specified buffets.

Do we really gain anything important by having a buffet?

I think so, yes. Buffets are generally more reliable than trolleys. For example, when a train is full and standing, passengers know which carriage to go for refreshments. There is a greater capacity for products which means less likely to sell out as quickly and none of this running out of hot water when at the opposite of the train and having to go the other end of the train for a top up. Also more probably acceptable to be louder if there is a group of you in the buffet than a seated coach. Even on severely overcrowded trains, the buffet offered lots of extra standing capacity. And although I can’t verify this, I’d imagine buffets were more profitable too for many of the reasons already mentioned.

ijmad · 19 Apr 2019

Silly question but, on GWR services with a trolley, are they okay with you going and finding the trolley if you want to get something to drink/eat, or do you have to wait for it to come to you?

HamworthyGoods · 19 Apr 2019

JonathanH said:
They 800/3 fleet were intended to be all electric 801/0s (which is obvious from their carriage numbering and the TARA). Quite what that would have meant in terms of North Cotswolds, Paignton and other extremities is not clear.

Is there really evidence that 9-car 802s are being 'robbed' from the WofE routes? The fact is that HSTs are still operating three of the services to Penzance, the 802/0s were introduced first and 802/1s are starting to appear on some of the Penzance workings as the final HSTs go.

Are there not intelligent people who have had to grapple with balancing the demands of the unit diagramming already and who have had to cope with the economic reality of what train fleet can be procured against the expected ticket revenue?

If you look at the postings to IETgen there are 802/1s making it to Penzance that start at North Pole and / or end at Laira but many of the Penzance workings are at Long Rock overnight at the start or end of the day. 800/3s or pairs of 800/0s make it down to Penzance as well sometimes (although obviously not overnight) which is possibly one reason why the 802 buffet adjustment doesn't work.

Splitting at Oxford is a performance issue. It has been explained in other threads that this just wouldn't work.

I’m glad someone bought Oxford splitting up, it used to be a nightmare performance wise on an hourly Worcester service with turbos when it happened, the Oxford fast are now doubled to twice an hour as are the XC services which pass through. Oxford has two platforms, Plymouth has 5 with far less trains so is far more suited to splitting and joining as used to happen prior to HSTs....

Iskra · 19 Apr 2019

The buffet is dead.

M&S offers better value, better quality food.

Plus, the TOC's need to be able to make bold claims about providing more seats. Without expensively extending platforms, maximising usable onboard space is essential to that.

hexagon789 · 19 Apr 2019

irish_rail said:
A matter of a opinion I guess. But talking to colleagues the main two complaints by far on pad to Penzance is seating and lack of buffets.

I'd say seat comfort trumps the importance of having a buffet. As does the toilet tank issue.

dk1 · 19 Apr 2019

Iskra said:
The buffet is dead.

M&S offers better value, better quality food.

Plus, the TOC's need to be able to make bold claims about providing more seats. Without expensively extending platforms, maximising usable onboard space is essential to that.

I love M&S and am one of their loyal punters. I also love the buffet/shop & it has a very healthy future if like Virgin it provides the right products with consistency. I am more than happy to pay extra for convenience.

hexagon789 · 19 Apr 2019

dk1 said:
Proper coffee, hot food & a well stocked selection of cold beer & wine. Much thanks must go to VTEC for insisting this fine institution stayed on track.

I always thought their coffee was rubbish tbh! :lol:

Parallel said:
I think so, yes. Buffets are generally more reliable than trolleys. For example, when a train is full and standing, passengers know which carriage to go for refreshments. There is a greater capacity for products which means less likely to sell out as quickly and none of this running out of hot water when at the opposite of the train and having to go the other end of the train for a top up. Also more probably acceptable to be louder if there is a group of you in the buffet than a seated coach. Even on severely overcrowded trains, the buffet offered lots of extra standing capacity. And although I can’t verify this, I’d imagine buffets were more profitable too for many of the reasons already mentioned.

I can understand them being able to stock more and a wider range, plus potentially light meals.

It's just people seem to take less and less advantage of such things, either buying in advance or not at all. Eating habits have changed and continue to change and while I personally appreciate the choice of having a buffet I'm not totally convinced if it's practicality.

Kite159 · 19 Apr 2019

Parallel said:
I think so, yes. Buffets are generally more reliable than trolleys. For example, when a train is full and standing, passengers know which carriage to go for refreshments. There is a greater capacity for products which means less likely to sell out as quickly and none of this running out of hot water when at the opposite of the train and having to go the other end of the train for a top up. Also more probably acceptable to be louder if there is a group of you in the buffet than a seated coach. Even on severely overcrowded trains, the buffet offered lots of extra standing capacity. And although I can’t verify this, I’d imagine buffets were more profitable too for many of the reasons already mentioned.

If a train is full & standing, you ain't going to be able to get to the buffet if you are not in the same coach.

And when you are gone, assuming you can fight your way through the crowds & the drunks at the bar, you come back with your overpriced cup of hot water and oh look your seat has been taken as you would have taken your luggage with you to the buffet counter to avoid the risk of it getting stolen.

Even virgin has started wheeling out the standard class trolley more

Clayton · 19 Apr 2019

If you’re going to or from Devon or Cornwall you’d certainly want a buffet,it’s nice to go and stretch your legs and see the selection. The trolleys get in the way and have a poor stock generally. A proper buffet is one of the things trains have over planes. No need to get pompous about it as some have done. There should be enough seats provided without having to worry about the buffet taking up a few

jimm · 19 Apr 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
There aren’t enough 800 9 cars for North Cotswolds, the 800 9 cars were built for the core table 125 routes. 802s with larger fuel tanks are needed for Cotsworlds and West of England’s where the majority of the route is on diesel.

The nine-car 800s are perfectly capable of operating Cotswold Line diagrams and do it all the time right now - 802s are very much the exception under current arrangements and we have yet to see how things will eventually shape up under diagrams for the new timetable.

That some of the nine-car 802s were ordered for peak Cotswold workings was because, as Clarence Yard has explained previously, GWR had identified a shortfall in the size of the 800 fleet and managed to persuade the DfT that it needed more stock to fill that gap, alongside providing the new trains for West Country services.

irish_rail said:
Except, the Paddington to Penzance route is not exactly bargain basement. If anything it's a premium fare, there are plenty of people I k ow in Plymouth who cannot afford to use the train. We are not talking about budget airline priced tickets here....

Except what? You were the one complaining about the journey times comparisons with France. There are trains there with similar or longer journey times than London-Cornwall with zero catering, never mind a trolley or Pullman restaurant.

GWR is currently offering advances on a series of departures from Paddington to Penzance and in the other direction on Saturdays July 13, 20 and 27 for all of £25. Hardly a premium fare in my book. I doubt FlyBe will be undercutting that price to Newquay.

If GWR was proposing a Ouigo type service to Penzance, you might have something to complain about. Though by the sound of it, First Group's East Coast open-access services will certainly draw some ideas from Ouigo, such as not having first class.

irish_rail said:
But perfectly feasible for everything coming on and off Laira and north pole be 9 cars. That would be a start, added to one 9 car departure from long rock a much better balance would be achieved than the situation now . There are intelligent people out there who could 're jig the unit diagramming to get rid of for example 9 cars to Hereford off peak which surely should be a pair of 5 cars splitting and joining at oxford to give one example.

I've already said that it looks like a nailed-on certainty that the first out and back London-Hereford off-peak working on weekdays will be a five-car from the timetable change anyway. The second one will most likely remain a nine-car, due to the times it calls at Oxford, Reading and Slough on the way back into London - ie in the afternoon peak.

No one is going to start building in performance risks at that time of day by adopting a method of working at Oxford that has performance risk written all over it.

theironroad · 19 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
Not on all services though

It's rather like ScotRail making out Edinburgh-Glasgow in 42 mins qualifies as progress.

Or GWR and is it Bath in 75?

Everytime I see the trolley come through in a Edinburgh-Glasgow or vv trip , I do wonder why it exists. Guess there must be some demand but can't be very much.

fgwrich · 19 Apr 2019

Kite159 said:
If a train is full & standing, you ain't going to be able to get to the buffet if you are not in the same coach.

And when you are gone, assuming you can fight your way through the crowds & the drunks at the bar, you come back with your overpriced cup of hot water and oh look your seat has been taken as you would have taken your luggage with you to the buffet counter to avoid the risk of it getting stolen.

Even virgin has started wheeling out the standard class trolley more

I would genuinely like to know when this has happened, because every time I have used a HST operated service, and I have used the Buffet Car, no-one has nicked my seat nor have I had to “fight through the crowds of drunks at the bar”! Yes I’ve been on HSTs during football days, and yes I have walked past some many a drunken fan. Nor have I personally, or in my career working on the railways, seen or heard of any passengers luggage being stolen whilst they have visited a Buffet - most actually happen while the passenger is in their seat while the luggage is in the racks! But I’ve never had an experience in between walking from my seat to the buffet akin to a Friday night in a weatherspoons!

Mutant Lemming · 19 Apr 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
I think we have the wrong approach in the UK. Rather than setting prices at a reasonable level (cost plus a bit) the attitude seems to be "how much can we get away with charging?"

Obviously there's going to be a bit of a mark-up, but buffet/trolley prices on the continent seem to be about 30-50% more than the high street. Here it's more like 100%. For example a coffee from the trolley on Ćesky Drahy is about 3 Kr (or around £1.20). On pretty much all UK operators it's double that.

All well and fine - but doubt you would be happy living on an average Czech wage

61653 HTAFC · 20 Apr 2019

Mutant Lemming said:
All well and fine - but doubt you would be happy living on an average Czech wage

I'd also have Czech living costs, and the prices on board trains would be far less of an indulgence pro-rata. The same goes for Germany where wages are more comparative to GB.

alxndr · 20 Apr 2019

irish_rail said:
Perhaps but apparently there is a review going on now and GWR are finally admitting there is a problem. Eventually a compromise will have to be found.
For the sake of one minute to sign the petition it's better than not bothering and admitting defeat. What is the worst that could happen?

I signed (even though I've never used either, I won't pay the prices no matter how long the journey), just find the timing a bit odd. If they've recognised of their own accord that it's not good enough then that makes a bit more sense.

Mag_seven · 20 Apr 2019

dk1 said:
Proper coffee, hot food & a well stocked selection of cold beer & wine. Much thanks must go to VTEC for insisting this fine institution stayed on track.

Agreed - particularly since that facility was a big selling point of the HSTs when they first came out. From the point of view of the passenger experience the decision to remove them from GWR IETs is a backwards step but as has been stated up thread capacity is everything these days.

whhistle · 20 Apr 2019

GWR has removed the buffet car from its new trains.

That reads like the IETs had buffets but GWR removed them.
Badly worded.

Kite159 · 20 Apr 2019

fgwrich said:
I would genuinely like to know when this has happened, because every time I have used a HST operated service, and I have used the Buffet Car, no-one has nicked my seat nor have I had to “fight through the crowds of drunks at the bar”! Yes I’ve been on HSTs during football days, and yes I have walked past some many a drunken fan. Nor have I personally, or in my career working on the railways, seen or heard of any passengers luggage being stolen whilst they have visited a Buffet - most actually happen while the passenger is in their seat while the luggage is in the racks! But I’ve never had an experience in between walking from my seat to the buffet akin to a Friday night in a weatherspoons!

So you have never been on a train which has been full & standing throughout so anybody not in the buffet coach can forget about trying to visit it?

Or on a train with sports fans who crowd around the buffet drinking making comments about anybody who passes?

daodao · 20 Apr 2019

There are very few routes in the UK that now merit a full catering service, but the case can be made for London-Cornwall, given the journey time of approximately 5 hours. Many years ago, I appreciated the availability of a restaurant car on the down Cornish Riviera Limited when travelling from Paddington to St Ives, but I note that only 4 trains per day (Mon-Fri) on this route now provide this type of catering. A buffet car able to provide hot food would be desirable on this line, but isn't needed on other GW routes - I never used the catering on any of the many journeys I made between 1984 and 2004 from Cardiff/Newport to London.

Noddy · 20 Apr 2019

irish_rail said:
For the sake of one minute to sign the petition it's better than not bothering and admitting defeat. What is the worst that could happen?

They remove seats and I end up standing.

hexagon789 · 20 Apr 2019

theironroad said:
Everytime I see the trolley come through in a Edinburgh-Glasgow or vv trip , I do wonder why it exists. Guess there must be some demand but can't be very much.

Been a feature since at least 1988, and they always seemed more well used on the shuttle than on longer-distance workings such as an Aberdeen or Inverness bizarrely.

alxndr · 20 Apr 2019

Kite159 said:
So you have never been on a train which has been full & standing throughout so anybody not in the buffet coach can forget about trying to visit it?

Surely if its so busy then the trolley won't be able to get through either. At least with a buffet car if you did really want to get something you could have a go at running down the platform the next time it stopped as you'd know where to find it.

Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

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