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Notre Dame Cathedral Severely Damaged By Fire

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SHD

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I would of thought that the catholic church will have more than enough in its coffers to cover the restoration.


It probably does but since the 1905 Law on the separation of Church and state, Notre-Dame - together with all catholic places of worship older than 1905 - belongs to the French state. The Diocese of Paris is a leaseholder of sorts.
 
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DaveHarries

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This mornings news reports suggest that around 30% of the cathedral was damaged or destroyed. Thankfully, no one appears to have been hurt, and there were some very brave fire fighters who went on the scaffolding to try & fight the fire. Things may well have been worse but for their bravery.
Indeed. Pictures from the inside suggest that the furnishings have survived thanks, in no small part, to the fact that the vaulting of the cathedral ceiling didn't give way under the collapse of the roof. One firefighter was injured and I think we all wish him / her a speedy recovery. My Dad said to me this morning that he wonders whether the main firefighter in charge of extinguishing the blaze may get some form of recognition as a thankyou.

The organ has survived (ish). As a musician, I am very pleased.
So am I and the news of the survival of the instrument left me breathing a huge sigh or relief. Two of the cathedral's organists - Philippe Lefebvre and Vincent Dubois - have said online that the pipework of the grand organ at the west end, and that of the orgue de choeur, is unscathed. The cathedral has 3 organs though: nothing said about the third one, the existence of which I was unaware.

Dave
 

Esker-pades

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Indeed. Pictures from the inside suggest that the furnishings have survived thanks, in no small part, to the fact that the vaulting of the cathedral ceiling didn't give way under the collapse of the roof. One firefighter was injured and I think we all wish him / her a speedy recovery. My Dad said to me this morning that he wonders whether the main firefighter in charge of extinguishing the blaze may get some form of recognition as a thankyou.


So am I and the news of the survival of the instrument left me breathing a huge sigh or relief. Two of the cathedral's organists - Philippe Lefebvre and Vincent Dubois - have said online that the pipework of the grand organ at the west end, and that of the orgue de choeur, is unscathed. The cathedral has 3 organs though: nothing said about the third one, the existence of which I was unaware.

Dave
A 3rd organ? That's news to me too.
 

bnm

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Breaking news:

Local legend and longtime Notre-Dame resident Quasimodo will now be known as “The Hunchback of Holiday Inn” after being safely evacuated from the burning cathedral he has resided in since birth, church officials confirmed.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Two of France's biggest companies: LVMH ( Louis Vuitton, Dior ) and Pinault ( Kering - Gucci ) have offered 300 millions euros to finance the rebuilding. Don't get me wrong, I rejoice at such generosity, however it dismays me that in a country as rich as France and despite the economic slowdown, finance cannot be found to give the homeless a decent roof over their heads. Yet another of President Macrons unfulfilled promises. M. Macron has announced a National Subscription to restore this National Treasure, with tax advantages of 90%. A shame as much cannot be done for other even more essential causes.
As an atheist, the spiritual side is completely lost on me, I do however realize just how important Notre Dame is for tourism, with 14 millions visitors each year.

No doubt these companies will not be acting purely from patriotic pride. Their boards of directors will have worked out the size of donation to make, such that the boost in reputation is worth more than the donation. Add to that the tax-breaks announced by Macron* and suddenly these "kind offers" aren't so surprising. Maybe now Dior logos will be placed on hoardings covering the restoration work...

Under Capitalism, no wealthy organisation or person will give purely out of the kindness of their heart. There will always be an ulterior motive or incentive, not necessarily an evil one, but it'll be there.

*Macron is NOT a progressive and never has been. He's a pro-corporate centrist through and through, Blair without the brash used-car-salesman "charm".

Thoughts with the firefighters injured dealing with the blaze. The building itself I couldn't give a monkey's uncle about, pretty though it was.
 

Pyreneenguy

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The Pinault family ( 3rd biggest donor ) are reported to have said that they have no intentions of using any available tax-breaks.
François-Henri Pinault interviewed on Europe 1 ( radio) said "I saw my 17-year-old daughter crying in front of the pictures, .
It deeply moved us.. We wanted to react right away. " Other large donors have stated the same.

There is polemic surrounding the offer of assistance from large cities and regions. One well known historien
Odon Vallet suggested that these bodies use the money on local projects, thousands of churches and other historical monuments are in need of urgent work.
 

AlterEgo

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I couldn't imagine the cultural nihilism you'd have to embrace not to give a hoot about the near-destruction of Notre Dame, a trove of heritage and the focal point of many an event which shaped the European continent. It's a very old symbol of Christian foundation, and latterly enlightenment in the afterglow of that religion, upon which our secular civilisation, the principles of law, justice and individual freedom, now stand.
 

yorksrob

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I understand that medieval architects used to massively over-engineer their stone buildings to be on the safe side, as they weren't as sure enough of the physics to be able to build slim line stone structures. This might have helped the stone vaulting to withstand these terrible events.

I've heard it said that it would be theoretically possible to drive a tank along the roof of Ely Cathedral for similar reasons.

Reminds me a bit of the fire at Windsor Castle in 1992. Let's hope they can salvage and rebuild as much as possible.
 

SHD

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Would the type of stonework that was used in the construction of the cathedral be a type that intense heat could cause it to become brittle?

The calcination of limestone "begins" at 800-900 °C, so it is indeed possible that the blaze had important consequences on part of the stonework.

(I write "begin" between quotes because calcination is driven by a equilibrium set by the partial pressure of CO2 which varies with temperature, and over 800 °C, the calcination reaction intensifies markedly. Technically, there is no absolute threshold for calcination)
 

Mutant Lemming

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What will be interesting is how Macron is going to fund the repairs. Will it be paid for with further budget cuts and greater austerity ?
 

jon0844

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I think the repairs have been funded many times over by donations (or offers of donation).
 

Peter Mugridge

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I think the repairs have been funded many times over by donations (or offers of donation).

That is correct, approximately €900 million has so far been pledged by a number of billionaire families ( who have also made clear they will not be making use of the associated tax breaks ) and large corporations in France.
 

SS4

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I couldn't imagine the cultural nihilism you'd have to embrace not to give a hoot about the near-destruction of Notre Dame, a trove of heritage and the focal point of many an event which shaped the European continent. It's a very old symbol of Christian foundation, and latterly enlightenment in the afterglow of that religion, upon which our secular civilisation, the principles of law, justice and individual freedom, now stand.

Why should I give a hoot if even God himself didn't care enough to prevent the fire or put itself out earlier?

The donations from the high rollers in society is a PR stunt designed to boost their prestige and profit by more than the carefully considered donation amount. I can only think of how much good approximately €1bn could do for the poorest people around the world. I'm no Christian but I'm sure that's what Jesus would want too - but of course there is no juicy PR in that.
 

underbank

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I can only think of how much good approximately €1bn could do for the poorest people around the world.

Not a lot really. There are over 3 billion people living on less than $2.50 per day and 1.3 billion living in extreme poverty of less than $1.25 per day. So a billion euros will just about give a single euro to nearly all those in extreme poverty. Can't imagine it will make much of a difference to most of them.
 

AlterEgo

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Why should I give a hoot if even God himself didn't care enough to prevent the fire or put itself out earlier?

The donations from the high rollers in society is a PR stunt designed to boost their prestige and profit by more than the carefully considered donation amount. I can only think of how much good approximately €1bn could do for the poorest people around the world. I'm no Christian but I'm sure that's what Jesus would want too - but of course there is no juicy PR in that.

It’s not a test of whether God exists or intervenes. You live in a post-Enlightenment, latterly Christian country and the very fact you’re enabled to post such legitimate dissent is entirely down to European ideals of individual sovereignty of thought. Christianity and Judaism first enshrined those concepts in European society.

Stick two fingers up to God, but don’t deny the importance of your own culture.
 

SS4

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It’s not a test of whether God exists or intervenes.

Nothing ever is. Bad things are man's work, good things are God's work.

You live in a post-Enlightenment, latterly Christian country and the very fact you’re enabled to post such legitimate dissent is entirely down to European ideals of individual sovereignty of thought. Christianity and Judaism first enshrined those concepts in European society.

Stick two fingers up to God, but don’t deny the importance of your own culture.

Even if I did buy it (I don't by the way) why do we need an icon to prove it? Are you saying those will all disappear if an icon burnt down? Note that I use the word icon deliberately in reference to the second commandment. Law, justice and morality almost certainly predate Christianity anyway - makes you wonder how the Ancient civilisations ever managed to survive!
 

SS4

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Many of these ancient civilisations did not survive, noting those in Central and South America as an example. Crop failures year after year, drought for long periods, etc. were natural occurrences that all played their part in this.

And yet they persisted long enough for records to emerge and be kept without Christianity or Judaism.
 

Meerkat

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Many of these ancient civilisations did not survive, noting those in Central and South America as an example. Crop failures year after year, drought for long periods, etc. were natural occurrences that all played their part in this.

Didn’t they get exterminated by Europeans conquering them in the name of the Kings and Popes?
 

Mutant Lemming

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Stick two fingers up to God, but don’t deny the importance of your own culture.

"Culture" is a relatively new concept and is still evolving and what one person considers an important aspect of 'their' culture may be anathema to others.
 

AlterEgo

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"Culture" is a relatively new concept and is still evolving and what one person considers an important aspect of 'their' culture may be anathema to others.

Culture has always existed, and only became an academic concept once people were enlightened and travelled enough to understand anthropological differences between different systems of living.
 

AlterEgo

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Even if I did buy it (I don't by the way) why do we need an icon to prove it? Are you saying those will all disappear if an icon burnt down? Note that I use the word icon deliberately in reference to the second commandment. Law, justice and morality almost certainly predate Christianity anyway - makes you wonder how the Ancient civilisations ever managed to survive!

The ideas of justice, law and morality as you live under today are very much influenced by the Bible - whether you like it or not.

Judeo-Christian values have produced the most successful civilisation - the West - in global history. They’re not a bad starting point, even if like me you think the religion isn’t in the least bit true or divine.

It’s very fashionable to stick two fingers up at the church, but not terribly clever. The fact you infer a nice looking church is a sort of icon prohibited by the second commandment displays how little you know about the content or context of the Bible, so your critiques of Christianity don’t carry a great deal of weight.

They should refurbish the church in a contemporary style.
 

SS4

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The ideas of justice, law and morality as you live under today are very much influenced by the Bible - whether you like it or not.

Judeo-Christian values have produced the most successful civilisation - the West - in global history. They’re not a bad starting point, even if like me you think the religion isn’t in the least bit true or divine.

It’s very fashionable to stick two fingers up at the church, but not terribly clever. The fact you infer a nice looking church is a sort of icon prohibited by the second commandment displays how little you know about the content or context of the Bible, so your critiques of Christianity don’t carry a great deal of weight.

They should refurbish the church in a contemporary style.

When the Church starts doing what's in the Bible instead of exhorting others to do so I will pay more than lip service.
 

AlterEgo

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When the Church starts doing what's in the Bible instead of exhorting others to do so I will pay more than lip service.

Until then, perhaps lectures on the interpretation of The Bible might be left to one side, too.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Culture has always existed, and only became an academic concept once people were enlightened and travelled enough to understand anthropological differences between different systems of living.

No it hasn't. What 'culture' was there before any organic life had developed ?
 
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