Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

trash80 · 13 Nov 2018

Yes you'd have to have both third rails in parallel (but surely a top contact like the DLR would be better than side contact?) until the new stock had completed the roll-out then start removing the old third rail. I suspect that might push up the cost a bit.

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Skie · 13 Nov 2018

Merseyrail don't suffer problems with freezing rails that often, Merseyside is fairly well insulated from extreme weather unless the winter is particularly bad. When a forecast says there may be a severe frost they often run ECS around the at risk areas overnight.

507 001 · 14 Nov 2018

geoffk said:
Just a thought - I wonder if any consideration was given to ordering the new units with shoes for side contact, rather than top contact, live rail? This was the system used on the Manchester - Bury line and the advantages were reduced risk of the live rail icing up and improved safety. Of course, the live rails themselves would have to be replaced on around 150 miles of track. Not sure if it could be done over two weekends, one for each line! Any comments?

2 weekends?! To do 150 miles of third rail? And both depots?

Tynwald · 14 Nov 2018

Skie said:
Merseyrail don't suffer problems with freezing rails that often, Merseyside is fairly well insulated from extreme weather unless the winter is particularly bad. When a forecast says there may be a severe frost they often run ECS around the at risk areas overnight.

Most importantly they put kilfrost onto the 3rd rail to stop it icing over. Some of the 507 units (the first 6 I think) had the equipment fitted to the trailers. Then it tranfered to the 501 vehicles, laterly hauled by the class 73's. It is now done by the DB multi purpose units.

swt_passenger · 14 Nov 2018

trash80 said:
Yes you'd have to have both third rails in parallel (but surely a top contact like the DLR would be better than side contact?) until the new stock had completed the roll-out then start removing the old third rail. I suspect that might push up the cost a bit.

It is DLR that is bottom contact. Existing system is top contact, the terminology describes which surface of the third rail is used.

It is physically impossible to have both systems in use together. Also the DLR style bottom contact is speed restricted, possibly as little as 30 mph. I don’t think that allows for the existing speeds used on the routes.

samuelmorris · 14 Nov 2018

DLR units are permitted to travel at up to 50mph I think, and are supposedly rated for 62. I'd have thought that'd be fast enough, and I'm sure such a system could easily be modified to support 75 if needed. Nonetheless, I can't see the current system ever being changed elsewhere, there's far too much of it.

Bletchleyite · 14 Nov 2018

samuelmorris said:
DLR units are permitted to travel at up to 50mph I think, and are supposedly rated for 62. I'd have thought that'd be fast enough, and I'm sure such a system could easily be modified to support 75 if needed. Nonetheless, I can't see the current system ever being changed elsewhere, there's far too much of it.

If they were going to change it, putting the wires up would make more sense, though it'd have to be an overhead third rail in the tunnels.

trash80 · 14 Nov 2018

Well they arn't going to change it anyway (though that won't stop about 10 pages of wibble)

Vinnym · 16 Nov 2018

Had 20 mins to kill at Lime Street yesterday morning due to the cancellation of 10.15 Northern service to Wigan North Western (surprise, surprise).
Made the most of this time by viewing the mock up for new Merseyrail trains. They are bright and airy and great to hear they will have aircon. However as has been said before on this thread the seats are very hard and there appears to be fewer of them. The seats no longer have that few inch gap between them, so could be a tight squeeze if you are sitting beside a larger person. This is where the wider aisle space comes from. It is obvious that theses trains have been designed to provide more standing space. Will be interesting to see how the travelling public on Merseyside react to them.

Bletchleyite · 16 Nov 2018

FWIW people were never bothered about the previous layout which had 3+2 with the seats quite close together, much closer than in the Stadler design. But they have had about 10 years of an InterCity quality layout...

FWIW I'm not sure I wouldn't have gone for an LU S8 style layout, i.e. a few bays of 4 for longer distance passengers, and longitudinal and standing for short-distance ones.

507 001 · 16 Nov 2018

Vinnym said:
Had 20 mins to kill at Lime Street yesterday morning due to the cancellation of 10.15 Northern service to Wigan North Western (surprise, surprise).
Made the most of this time by viewing the mock up for new Merseyrail trains. They are bright and airy and great to hear they will have aircon. However as has been said before on this thread the seats are very hard and there appears to be fewer of them. The seats no longer have that few inch gap between them, so could be a tight squeeze if you are sitting beside a larger person. This is where the wider aisle space comes from. It is obvious that theses trains have been designed to provide more standing space. Will be interesting to see how the travelling public on Merseyside react to them.

A 4 car 777 has the same number of seats as a 3 car 507, but with 50% mores standing space. Yuk.

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW people were never bothered about the previous layout which had 3+2 with the seats quite close together, much closer than in the Stadler design. But they have had about 10 years of an InterCity quality layout...

FWIW I'm not sure I wouldn't have gone for an LU S8 style layout, i.e. a few bays of 4 for longer distance passengers, and longitudinal and standing for short-distance ones.

People did care about the previous 3+2 layout which is precisely why they changed it! I can also guarantee people would have hated longitudinal seating. It was gladly rejected in the survey IIRC. Merseyrail isn’t a busy enough system to warrant the loss of being able to sit together.

61653 HTAFC · 16 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW people were never bothered about the previous layout which had 3+2 with the seats quite close together, much closer than in the Stadler design. But they have had about 10 years of an InterCity quality layout...

FWIW I'm not sure I wouldn't have gone for an LU S8 style layout, i.e. a few bays of 4 for longer distance passengers, and longitudinal and standing for short-distance ones.

Overstatement of the century there, I think!

trainophile · 16 Nov 2018

Just been around the mock-up myself. The point above about large people being squashed together is a valid one, especially in winter with overcoats on. The guy showing people around said it’s because the gaps between the seats and under the windows were very unhygienic, which is a fair comment I suppose.

Not really looking forward to the new stock, although at least some seats have power sockets.

Bletchleyite · 16 Nov 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Overstatement of the century there, I think!

It's generously spaced, generous width and all facing. Not sure how it's not an InterCity layout!

OK, no armrests or tables, but those don't affect the *layout*.

Bletchleyite · 16 Nov 2018

trainophile said:
Just been around the mock-up myself. The point above about large people being squashed together is a valid one, especially in winter with overcoats on. The guy showing people around said it’s because the gaps between the seats and under the windows were very unhygienic, which is a fair comment I suppose.

That could be resolved by making the actual seats about 2" wider.

FWIW, though, my observation is that Merseyrail has a proper "can't be bothered" attitude to proper cleaning and maintenance (above that which is required to keep wheels turning) and always has had. Even the new franchise didn't change that. My favourite bit is where there are door autocloser catch things (which have obviously been swung on by kids, but that's neither here nor there) have been left hanging down in a manner that could poke out the eyes of an unobservant tall person, but there are many examples such as the state of the toilets.

The same people are using Merseyrail as are shopping in Liverpool One (so you can't pin it on the passengers), and the latter would never tolerate the state of disrepair and filth Merseyrail trains and stations quickly end up in.

trainophile · 16 Nov 2018

I would suggest that probably the old dears who go into town for their shopping are not the ones who throw their half eaten snacks under the seats, and put their feet on the seats when they can get away with it. Sadly Merseyside has its share of people with no respect for others. It won’t be long before the new seats have sandwiches rammed between what passes for the cushions!

Not too keen on the disappearance of opening windows - aircon is fine until it goes wrong, or is set to high because it’s summer even though it’s cool outside. You always have to carry a warm layer on trains anyway, you never know what you’re going to find.

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Nov 2018

Bevan Price said:
And from March 2019 (post Brexit) we will be able to ignore European regulations for any stock that remains exclusively within UK.

No, that's not the case.
The ORR has said that all railway TSIs (which we contributed to and accepted over the years) will continue to apply whatever the Brexit outcome.
Not that vehicle numbering is the most important aspect of the rules.
Most of our trains are being built by EU-based manufacturers anyway.
The draft withdrawal deal, if it's approved, means nothing significant will change before the end of 2020 anyway, and maybe not even then.

Bletchleyite · 16 Nov 2018

trainophile said:
I would suggest that probably the old dears who go into town for their shopping are not the ones who throw their half eaten snacks under the seats, and put their feet on the seats when they can get away with it. Sadly Merseyside has its share of people with no respect for others. It won’t be long before the new seats have sandwiches rammed between what passes for the cushions!

I wasn't so much talking about littering (at which south WCML travellers are just as bad) - more at ground-in grime, dirt and dust, which just shows a lack of attention.

Not too keen on the disappearance of opening windows - aircon is fine until it goes wrong, or is set to high because it’s summer even though it’s cool outside. You always have to carry a warm layer on trains anyway, you never know what you’re going to find.

Train aircon is generally set to a temperature rather than "high" or "low", so it'll be the same all the time. It's set to a temperature that can accommodate everyone, with their coat if necessary, because if it is too hot you don't want me stripping off entirely!

61653 HTAFC · 16 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It's generously spaced, generous width and all facing. Not sure how it's not an InterCity layout!

OK, no armrests or tables, but those don't affect the *layout*.

The part of your post I bolded says an "InterCity quality layout", which would surely include tables and armrests. If I was travelling 200 miles up to Kings Cross and something like a Merseyrail unit turned up, I'd not be happy!

absolutelymilk · 21 Dec 2018

The body shells for the first unit were completed in October, wonder how much progress has been made since then?
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/first-merseytravel-class-777-bodyshells-complete

The first Merseyrail Class 777 electric multiple units have entered the final assembly phase ahead of delivery to the UK next year.

The first bodyshells have been moved from Stadler’s Szolnok facility in Hungary, to its Altenrhein facility in Switzerland.

paddyb6 · 13 Feb 2019

Any updates regarding progress on the units?

Skie · 28 Feb 2019

According to a PDF dated November, the first train should arrive in May.

Pages 9/13 https://www.liverpoollep.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Hein-van-der-Schoot-Stadler-Rail.pdf (Its in english, dont worry!)

gka472l · 1 Mar 2019

Latest Platform 5 combined volume lists the individual car numbers as 427001/428001/429001/430001 etc......

WatcherZero · 20 Apr 2019

Battery trial on the class 777 has been pulled, too much heat from the batteries and not enough room to fit cooling equipment without a redesign of the body to increase space.

I would imagine the extended periods in tunnels and slow speeds of the lines compounds the issue by not producing enough airflow.

paddyb6 · 20 Apr 2019

WatcherZero said:
Battery trial on the class 777 has been pulled, too much heat from the batteries and not enough room to fit cooling equipment without a redesign of the body to increase space.

I would imagine the extended periods in tunnels and slow speeds of the lines compounds the issue by not producing enough airflow.

So thats the Wrexham/Helsby chances gone

185 · 21 Apr 2019

Could try Hydrogen. Might take out half of Birkenhead North, but hey, needs no third rail

Meerkat · 21 Apr 2019

So extensions will have to be 25KV.....
How expensive is it to make a 777 overhead ready, I assume spec is currently passive provision??
Will they still have batteries to get around depots etc?
Lastly when will any of the third rail electrics require major renewal which could assist the business case for a 25KV replacement and extension?

supervc-10 · 21 Apr 2019

Is 25kV overhead possible in the tunnels?

Statto · 21 Apr 2019

supervc-10 said:
Is 25kV overhead possible in the tunnels?

No, current 507 & 508s just about fit in the tunnels as it is, looking at the mock ups, the new trains look similar height to the current stock, so unless complete redesign of the roof of the new trains, or rebuild of the tunnels which isn't going to happen no chance of 25KV overhead wires.

supervc-10 · 21 Apr 2019

That's what I thought. Don't the 507/508 and 777 have end doors because the tunnels are so tight too? Like the 717s.

Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

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