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East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

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TheBigD

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That sounds like a very stressed timetable with little leeway for things going wrong. And that would be for top of class units with the best reliability in Western civilisation.

Agreed. But if the priority is to get rid of the HSTs and tide EMR over for a couple of years until the new bimodes arrive. ..

On a slightly related note, if the HSTs are going I wonder what the plan is for summer Saturdays on the Skegness line?
 
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yorksrob

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Agreed. But if the priority is to get rid of the HSTs and tide EMR over for a couple of years until the new bimodes arrive. ..

On a slightly related note, if the HSTs are going I wonder what the plan is for summer Saturdays on the Skegness line?

That's certainly not my priority.

As a regular passenger of the Midland Mainline, my priority is that equivalent quality services are maintained until the changeover to the new stock.

If someone is imposing different priorities, I want their motivations and decisions subjected to full public scrutiny
 

Killingworth

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I can't help wondering who would want to use the 180s after their recent somewhat dire performance going to and from Hull.

Which might explain a leak from the teams about to have them wished upon them. A fairly large majority on here would seem likely to cast their vote for a non-compliant HST over a 180 if given the opportunity. Most members of the travelling public would probably do the same if they knew of the reliability issues.

But what else do we do with 20 year old units when we have so many units over 30 years old and likely to be in service for another 10?
 

tbtc

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I can't help wondering who would want to use the 180s after their recent somewhat dire performance going to and from Hull.

Which might explain a leak from the teams about to have them wished upon them. A fairly large majority on here would seem likely to cast their vote for a non-compliant HST over a 180 if given the opportunity. Most members of the travelling public would probably do the same if they knew of the reliability issues.

But what else do we do with 20 year old units when we have so many units over 30 years old and likely to be in service for another 10?

It's a tricky one.

We have people on here complaining when anything is taken out of service after only forty years (and, in the case of HSTs, even when they've been in service for over forty years!), but what do we do about non-standard trains without an obvious future, that are only half way through their "natural" life?

We managed to convert most of the 460s to 458s with only a few end coaches wasted. A few centre coaches from 321s were made redundant after under thirty years and that got a bit of attention on here (for potential future uses etc).

But what do we need self powered 125mph trains for, in an age of 800/801/802s coming off the production line? All of the various "creative" threads to find uses for HSTs in the 2020s have drawn a blank (other than the planned short/medium term use on GWR/ScotRail. Ten coach 180s could work on EMT/EMR for some duties - I could see merit in running some diagrams like that from Neville Hill - St Pancras - Cricklewood (lay about in Cricklewood during the daytime and be kept away from naked flames) and then reverse in the evening.

Might as well come up with some ideas now because it'll save time for when we have identical debates about the 220/221/222s in the next year or two (once the next XC franchise decides to take advantage of getting something like 802s fairly cheap)! I'd bet that some of the people relaxed about 180s being scrapped after twenty years will be upset about 91s scrapped after thirty years though.

And, as a relatively able-bodied passenger, I'd take a "non compliant" eight coach HST over a five coach 180 most days of the week - especially given the well documented reliability problems of the Adelantes - but it's not just about people like me, it's about people who a non-compliant HST cannot fully accommodate - a non-reliable five coach 180 is still going to be better for some people than a train that they cannot get on/off. And, as ScotRail are finding out, upgrading HSTs to modern standards isn't a simple task.

(meanwhile, some 150s will still be running on 1 January 2030 - there's a lot to be said for simple/ basic/ unfussy trains)
 

yorksrob

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And, as a relatively able-bodied passenger, I'd take a "non compliant" eight coach HST over a five coach 180 most days of the week - especially given the well documented reliability problems of the Adelantes - but it's not just about people like me, it's about people who a non-compliant HST cannot fully accommodate - a non-reliable five coach 180 is still going to be better for some people than a train that they cannot get on/off. And, as ScotRail are finding out, upgrading HSTs to modern standards isn't a simple task.

(meanwhile, some 150s will still be running on 1 January 2030 - there's a lot to be said for simple/ basic/ unfussy trains)

Well, actually, it is about people like you. You, me, everyone.

I find this idea that persons of restricted mobility are so different from everyone else, that they would far rather be crammed on a shorter, overcrowded train which is likely to break down, than have someone else open a door for them, highly improbable. Disabled people want a comfortable journey from A to B like the rest of us.

Let's be correct about things. This isn't about people not being able to get on/off trains. People of limited mobility use HST's everyday. It just means that the TOC has to provide some assistance to make sure that they can get on and off - which it looks as though Abellio were planning, before this half baked pig's ear of a "plan" (it doesn't really deserve the name) was concocted by someone.
 

hwl

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Well, actually, it is about people like you. You, me, everyone.

I find this idea that persons of restricted mobility are so different from everyone else, that they would far rather be crammed on a shorter, overcrowded train which is likely to break down, than have someone else open a door for them, highly improbable. Disabled people want a comfortable journey from A to B like the rest of us.

Let's be correct about things. This isn't about people not being able to get on/off trains. People of limited mobility use HST's everyday. It just means that the TOC has to provide some assistance to make sure that they can get on and off - which it looks as though Abellio were planning, before this half baked pig's ear of a "plan" (it doesn't really deserve the name) was concocted by someone.
The best estimates are that less than 0.4% of passengers with PRM issues are wheelchair /mobility scooter users.
The getting the window down and opening the door handle issue is way bigger in number terms than wheel chair issues.
 

yorksrob

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The best estimates are that less than 0.4% of passengers with PRM issues are wheelchair /mobility scooter users.
The getting the window down and opening the door handle issue is way bigger in number terms than wheel chair issues.

But the issue still stands. I find it unlikely that people who find the door handles troublesome would exchange that for a more overcrowded, less reliable service.
 

cactustwirly

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But the issue still stands. I find it unlikely that people who find the door handles troublesome would exchange that for a more overcrowded, less reliable service.

My Grandmother in particular avoids HSTs because she can't open the doors, and doesn't want to miss her stop
 

hwl

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But the issue still stands. I find it unlikely that people who find the door handles troublesome would exchange that for a more overcrowded, less reliable service.
Agree on that, I was just point on that the vast majority of PRM issues don't involve wheelchairs in which case more seats are generally better especially if not IC70s!
 

hwl

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My Grandmother in particular avoids HSTs because she can't open the doors, and doesn't want to miss her stop
My mother has nerve issues in her right wrist so can't do certain movements including opening the Mk3 door handles with her right hand but can with her left so always chooses the doors that are easier to open with her left!
 

yorksrob

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My Grandmother in particular avoids HSTs because she can't open the doors, and doesn't want to miss her stop

Even then your Grandmother probably benefits from the additional capacity the HST's provide due to diverting people away from the 222's.

Perhaps the original idea of having someone on hand to open the door might help ?

Agree on that, I was just point on that the vast majority of PRM issues don't involve wheelchairs in which case more seats are better especially if not IC70s!

Quite, although I personally don't have an issue with the IC70's.
 

hwl

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Perhaps the original idea of having someone on hand to open the door might help ?


Quite, although I personally don't have an issue with the IC70's.

7/8 people per train might get bit excessive. the best solution is busier trains to help guarantee 1 no-issue user per set of doors.
IC70s are bad for many people with mobility issues.

modified HST power cars + Mk4s look like a very sensible solution as the gauging issues will need to be sorted for the new stock anyway.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Surely Lillian Greenwood will be in a position to influence the DFT that the 180's are not really suitable for the MML.

The opposition and select committees can moan and groan, but they can't overturn DfT decisions.
In any case the "industry" is supposed to come up with solutions, not be dictated by the DfT.
 

yorksrob

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7/8 people per train might get bit excessive. the best solution is busier trains to help guarantee 1 no-issue user per set of doors.
IC70s are bad for many people with mobility issues.

modified HST power cars + Mk4s look like a very sensible solution as the gauging issues will need to be sorted for the new stock anyway.

I agree. One set of doors with assistance available would be a proportionate solution to the problem.

The opposition and select committees can moan and groan, but they can't overturn DfT decisions.
In any case the "industry" is supposed to come up with solutions, not be dictated by the DfT.

The industry did come up with a sensible, workable solution, which makes it all the more peculiar as to why this half baked cock-up waiting to happen, has been concocted.
 

hwl

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I agree. One set of doors with assistance available would be a proportionate solution to the problem.



The industry did come up with a sensible, workable solution, which makes it all the more peculiar as to why this half baked cock-up waiting to happen, has been concocted.
However I suspect someone has realised that the majority of users with issues don't book support or travel in one part of the the train hence lots more staff as the proportionate response to reality.
 

hwl

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The opposition and select committees can moan and groan, but they can't overturn DfT decisions.
In any case the "industry" is supposed to come up with solutions, not be dictated by the DfT.
As this probably won't be signed off any time soon because of the stagecoach challenges the TSC will have time to start prodding and making noises.
At least 2 TSC members will probably read this thread...
 

Meerkat

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One set of doors with assistance available would be a proportionate solution to the problem

I disagree. Someone climbs on through open door and doesn’t realise they need assistance until they can’t open their nearest door.
It’s a crazy system in a modern world. These days if we see a door with no handle then we expect it to open automatically, we don’t start reading signs until it doesn’t (and there are so many signs crying wolf these days......), and even then opening the window isn’t as obvious or easy as you could rightfully expect.
 

yorksrob

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However I suspect someone has realised that the majority of users with issues don't book support or travel in one part of the the train hence lots more staff as the proportionate response to reality.

If that person has the option to head to a particular door with assistance and chooses not to, I would suggest that the issue for that person is not so pressing as to be worth worrying about.
 

LowLevel

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As this probably won't be signed off any time soon because of the stagecoach challenges the TSC will have time to start prodding and making noises.
At least 2 TSC members will probably read this thread...

I suspect the franchise award will go ahead regardless of Stagecoach challenges but that there may be ramifications in the future - I suspect they're far more bothered by the being disallowed outright than losing this particular competition. I may be wrong and the whole thing may come to a halt but EMT have written to their staff explaining the handover and mobilisation process to Abellio regardless.
 

Railperf

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125mph Bi-mode also add Bombardier to the list.
modern refurbished ex LNWR 170s and ex TfW 158s
Bombardier have a lot to prove at the moment after the Class 710 debacle!! Who would rush to order from them now unless it is a politically driven decision? I would say a more powerful version of Hitachi's 802 would be a good bet. Stadler make a good 125mph FLIRT EMU. But I imagine a 125mph version would likely need two generator cars per 4-car set to provide the power outputs required?
Let's see how the 755's perform in due course.
 

yorksrob

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I disagree. Someone climbs on through open door and doesn’t realise they need assistance until they can’t open their nearest door.
It’s a crazy system in a modern world. These days if we see a door with no handle then we expect it to open automatically, we don’t start reading signs until it doesn’t (and there are so many signs crying wolf these days......), and even then opening the window isn’t as obvious or easy as you could rightfully expect.

It's a matter of priorities.

On the one hand, someone might have to seek assistance with a door.

On the other hand they might be put off from travelling altogether due to lack of capacity and overcrowding, lack of affordable fares due to reduced capacity or lack of reliability.

I know which one I would prioritise.
 
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There are some ex anglia 170's sitting in sidings available saw them last week also nice to see that the ivenhoe will now run sundays when they take over and don't forget ivenhoe trains go all the way to Lincoln

As for hydrogen trains aren't they going to be an old unit converted to run on hydrogen like those bi mode trains the Gcr tested
 

edwin_m

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There are some ex anglia 170's sitting in sidings available saw them last week also nice to see that the ivenhoe will now run sundays when they take over and don't forget ivenhoe trains go all the way to Lincoln

As for hydrogen trains aren't they going to be an old unit converted to run on hydrogen like those bi mode trains the Gcr tested
Welcome to the forum.

It will be interesting to see whether Ivanhoe trains still run through to Lincoln in the new timetable, as that service appears to be extended to Grimsby. I don't think it's clear yet which pairs of trains will be linked across Nottingham.

There is indeed a hydrogen version of the 769 being produced, although it seems to be more of an experiment than something that might go into regular service. However if the Ivanhoe service just runs between Leicester and Nottingham it could be a good place to try out something like that (they probably wouldn't want it going all the way to Grimsby).
 

ivanhoe

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As a matter of interest, what is the cost of converting HST stock to be compliant, in respect of doors and retention tanks? Also how long does it take to convert a unit?
 

700007

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The way it sounds to me, if the 180 rumour does materialise to be true:o

  • To replace 10 HSTs, 4 180s to be recruited + 1 sublease from Grand Central
  • Corby may be reduced to a Sprinter operated shuttle to and from Kettering temporarily until EMUs come in at their earliest convenience - if I was a betting man I could see 350/2s being chosen here. This releases 3 222s.
  • The existing diagrams reworked to be a lot tighter or use shorter formations to somehow reduce the amount of units used to compensate for 3 missing trains or really work the trains by taking practically whatever diagram spends the day in a siding or depot to work through the day
Either way I don't see it as an ideal situation and will bog down to passengers not being too pleased about losing a direct London service or seeing short forms or increased unreliability about the place.

Obviously bringing out the crayons here but if the pending stock shortage comes to this franchise, could there be any scope to do a short term lease of some 319s / 769s on Corby work?
 

cactustwirly

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The way it sounds to me, if the 180 rumour does materialise to be true:o

  • To replace 10 HSTs, 4 180s to be recruited + 1 sublease from Grand Central
  • Corby may be reduced to a Sprinter operated shuttle to and from Kettering temporarily until EMUs come in at their earliest convenience - if I was a betting man I could see 350/2s being chosen here. This releases 3 222s.
  • The existing diagrams reworked to be a lot tighter or use shorter formations to somehow reduce the amount of units used to compensate for 3 missing trains or really work the trains by taking practically whatever diagram spends the day in a siding or depot to work through the day
Either way I don't see it as an ideal situation and will bog down to passengers not being too pleased about losing a direct London service or seeing short forms or increased unreliability about the place.

Obviously bringing out the crayons here but if the pending stock shortage comes to this franchise, could there be any scope to do a short term lease of some 319s / 769s on Corby work?

Nope! The 769s have neither the acceleration or 125mph speed required for Corby services!
 

Jozhua

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So is it confirmed/likely the 180's are going to run on EMR or are things actually going to get better for passengers?
 

Kneedown

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Nothing is confirmed with regards to anything whatsoever until the ink is dry on the paperwork after the standstill period ends. Until that point everything is "wibble".
 
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