Double deck trams in Hong Kong

chris155au · 24 Apr 2019

I didn't know that these things existed until recently! I can't get over how tall they are. I can find no dimensions at all on them, but they look WAY taller than any double decker bus or train. Some of them look to be almost 6 meters! The bus in the below picture looks taller than others too! Does anyone know anything about these trams?

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class387 · 24 Apr 2019

I don't think they're much taller than a double deck bus - they just seem taller because they are narrower.

chris155au · 24 Apr 2019

class387 said:
I don't think they're much taller than a double deck bus - they just seem taller because they are narrower.

Not if you compare the leading tram to the bus on the road next to it.

paddington · 24 Apr 2019

chris155au said:
Not if you compare the leading tram to the bus on the road next to it.

That's a perspective issue. OK, the buses are low floor, but when I'm travelling on the lower deck of a tram I feel my head is going to hit the ceiling all the time, which doesn't happen on a bus.

You can stand on the upper deck of trams, but not on buses.

306024 · 24 Apr 2019

Hong Kong is simply wonderful for any transport enthusiast. As for these trams, the narrow width makes them look taller. If you are more than 6 foot you’ll bump your head in the roof of either deck. Standing is allowed in both decks, and they are rather slow, but effectively a whole working museum in the middle of one of the most vibrant cities on earth.

chris155au · 24 Apr 2019

paddington said:
That's a perspective issue. OK, the buses are low floor, but when I'm travelling on the lower deck of a tram I feel my head is going to hit the ceiling all the time, which doesn't happen on a bus.

You can stand on the upper deck of trams, but not on buses.

Which double deck tram have you traveled on?

chris155au · 24 Apr 2019

306024 said:
Hong Kong is simply wonderful for any transport enthusiast. As for these trams, the narrow width makes them look taller. If you are more than 6 foot you’ll bump your head in the roof of either deck. Standing is allowed in both decks, and they are rather slow, but effectively a whole working museum in the middle of one of the most vibrant cities on earth.

Yes, but even taking their narrowness into account, they simply have to be significantly taller than other double deck trains and buses,
which average around 4.4m. Just compare the leading tram to the bus on the road next to it.

paddington · 24 Apr 2019

chris155au said:
Which double deck tram have you traveled on?

The ones in Hong Kong...

STEVIEBOY1 · 24 Apr 2019

The old London Trams and some others in the UK were double deck, you can ride on some at Crich and Beamish.

jmh59 · 24 Apr 2019

I hope to be out there again very soon. Last time we almost did the entire tram route but got off a stop early due to the time... fun things.

This is a cropped image from a verylong way back so apologies for the quality - with a trailing wind you might just make out the height of the tram and bus next to it.

And a full frontal...

flymo · 24 Apr 2019

A snip at $2.60 (25p) for any journey too and a pain in the proverbial to get off of when extremely busy. Start edging towards the door a couple of stops before yours.

A couple have fallen over recently (last one a couple of weeks ago) due to drivers giving them a bit more welly than they should round a bend or two.

atraindriver · 24 Apr 2019

Ianno87 · 24 Apr 2019

I heartily recommend a tram ride for anyone visiting Hong Kong - a great way to see the diversity, sights, sounds and smells of Hong Kong Island. With droplight windows throughout, including upstairs (did have to be wary of my toddler!).

And yes at 25p single per ride (something like 2 hours end to end), an absolute bargain.

There are tourist special trams, but forget them, the normal service ones are just fine.

fowler9 · 25 Apr 2019

The trams in Hong Kong are amazing, really cheap, and no taller than the double deck buses in any significant way.

LesS · 25 Apr 2019

On any visit to Hong Kong it should be remembered to visit Tuen Mun in the New Territories. There is another tram network which is very modern. Mostly on dedicated track and with an amazing junction station mid network. Simply take the MTR Tuen Mun line to the terminus and enjoy the experience.

AM9 · 25 Apr 2019

One thing worth noting when comparing heights of them in street pictures is that the Hong Kong population is much shorter than a typical one in Europe. I am just over 6ft tall and when walking along crowded pavements there, I can see well over the heads of most other pedestrians. The saloons in them are about the same height inside as the double deck trams at Crich. It's just the narrow gauge and the narrow overall body width that makes them look taller.

chris155au · 25 Apr 2019

atraindriver said:
Took a lot of Googling, but eventually Google came up with a 1967 report (for the HK government) which says a double-deck Hong Kong tram is a "12 ton car [which] is 29 feet long, 14 feet 9 inches in height and is designed for operation on a 3 foot 6 inch narrow gauge track with 36 foot radius curves". (14'9" is 4.5m).

KMB's website has a news article quoting buses as being 4.4m high, so I'm afraid that it really is just the narrowness of the trams and the perspective of the picture exaggerating the difference in height.

Well, 14.9 feet is 4.5m, so slightly taller than any double decker that I know of. Is it just me or is the leading tram in the picture quite a bit taller than the bus on the road next to it? I was also considering that the image may be stretched slightly.

chris155au · 25 Apr 2019

AM9 said:
One thing worth noting when comparing heights of them in street pictures is that the Hong Kong population is much shorter than a typical one in Europe. I am just over 6ft tall and when walking along crowded pavements there, I can see well over the heads of most other pedestrians. The saloons in them are about the same height inside as the double deck trams at Crich. It's just the narrow gauge and the narrow overall body width that makes them look taller.

Is it just me or is the leading tram in the picture quite a bit taller than the bus on the road next to it? I was also considering that the image may be stretched slightly.

AM9 · 25 Apr 2019

chris155au said:
Is it just me or is the leading tram in the picture quite a bit taller than the bus on the road next to it? I was also considering that the image may be stretched slightly.

If you mean the smaller picture on post #10, the flat roof is about 150-200mm higher than the bus but the box on the front (which carries a number) is about another 300mm but that just about covers the height of the trolley gear. Yes they are a little higher but they run on a defined route so there are no unexpected low structures overhead. The doubledeck buses however may be used on routes through the Aberdeen Tunnel.

chris155au · 25 Apr 2019

AM9 said:
If you mean the smaller picture on post #10,

I meant this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Hk_tram_jam.jpg/800px-Hk_tram_jam.jpg

Keep in mind that the bottom of the tram is quite a bit chopped off, but is still visibly quite a bit taller than the bus. Perhaps it is a below average height bus.

axlecounter · 25 Apr 2019

The question that came to my mind seeing the first picture is: are they all queued up because that’s an important station and then they go each its route or do they ride around in queue? Or what? How happens that so many trams are in the same place at the same time? Is it just rush hour?

Ianno87 · 25 Apr 2019

axlecounter said:
The question that came to my mind seeing the first picture is: are they all queued up because that’s an important station and then they go each its route or do they ride around in queue? Or what? How happens that so many trams are in the same place at the same time? Is it just rush hour?

The core services is a number of overlapping routes, each route itself running at a pretty high frequency. It is a very intensive service, so in the central area such sights are not uncommon; the flow of trams is virtually continuous.

Harpers Tate · 25 Apr 2019

axlecounter said:
The question that came to my mind seeing the first picture is: are they all queued up because that’s an important station and then they go each its route or do they ride around in queue? Or what? How happens that so many trams are in the same place at the same time? Is it just rush hour?

Actually the network is very simple, consisting in principle of a single end-to-end line, with a one-way loop off it into Happy Valley (i.e all trams in Happy Valley operate clockwise).

The loop is one-way round into Happy Valley, which has its own terminus. Trams in service can and do
- start at certain intermediate locations
- terminate at certain intermediate stations and reverse (i.e. where trackwork and points and loops permit)
- turn into Happy Valley from either direction on the "main line" at the eastern end of the loop (i.e. closer to Causeway Bay) and
- exit the Happy Valley loop to either direction on the "main line" at the western end of the loop.

Plus depot access lines etc., that aren't part of the service.

paddington · 25 Apr 2019

They suffer from the bunching problem to some extent during busier travel times of day.

Trams used to be driven from both ends, 20 years ago you used to get trams actually reversing on the main line (which means the doors are smaller - passengers would use the door that is usually on the driver's right, no turnstiles), nowadays they all turn around at proper loops so the drivers don't change ends. Some newer trams may not have doors on both sides, I can't remember exactly. They also used to display the typhoon signal on their blinds if one was hoisted.

BahrainLad · 25 Apr 2019

Many a happy time leaving the office in Central, hopping on a tram and heading to the races in Happy Valley on a Wednesday evening. Tram ticket 25p, race ticket 80p? Something like that. All rather delightful.

Ianno87 · 25 Apr 2019

Harpers Tate said:
Actually the network is very simple, consisting in principle of a single end-to-end line, with a one-way loop off it into Happy Valley (i.e all trams in Happy Valley operate clockwise).

View attachment 62085

The loop is one-way round into Happy Valley, which has its own terminus. Trams in service can and do
- start at certain intermediate locations
- terminate at certain intermediate stations and reverse (i.e. where trackwork and points and loops permit)
- turn into Happy Valley from either direction on the "main line" at the eastern end of the loop (i.e. closer to Causeway Bay) and
- exit the Happy Valley loop to either direction on the "main line" at the western end of the loop.

Plus depot access lines etc., that aren't part of the service.

I seem to recall relatively few trams actually do end-to-end - most are short workings or to/from Happy Valley.

The time I did it, was a direct tram from North Point to Kennedy Town (which was well over 75 minutes or so to do)

paddington · 25 Apr 2019

Ianno87 said:
I seem to recall relatively few trams actually do end-to-end - most are short workings or to/from Happy Valley.

The time I did it, was a direct tram from North Point to Kennedy Town (which was well over 75 minutes or so to do)

According to Wikipedia, the current routes are:

Kennedy Town ↔ Happy Valley
Kennedy Town ↔ Shau Kei Wan
Shek Tong Tsui ↔ Causeway Bay
Shek Tong Tsui ↔ North Point
Western Market ↔ Shau Kei Wan
Happy Valley ↔ Shau Kei Wan

I'm not sure what proportion of trams do what route. There used to be quite a few more routes.

Though my recall may be faulty, I don't believe trams ever routinely ran from Kennedy Town to North Point, it was always North Point to Whitty St.

I think the general rule is that if you want to go to Happy Valley, then a non-HV tram will turn up, while if you don't then an HV tram will turn up.

Ianno87 · 25 Apr 2019

paddington said:
According to Wikipedia, the current routes are:

Kennedy Town ↔ Happy Valley

Kennedy Town ↔ Shau Kei Wan

Shek Tong Tsui ↔ Causeway Bay

Shek Tong Tsui ↔ North Point

Western Market ↔ Shau Kei Wan

Happy Valley ↔ Shau Kei Wan

I'm not sure what proportion of trams do what route. There used to be quite a few more routes.

Though my recall may be faulty, I don't believe trams ever routinely ran from Kennedy Town to North Point, it was always North Point to Whitty St.

I think the general rule is that if you want to go to Happy Valley, then a non-HV tram will turn up, while if you don't then an HV tram will turn up.

What I meant was I boarded a tram at North Point that had come from somewhere further afield.

306024 · 25 Apr 2019

Trams running the full length of the route between Kennedy Kennedy Town and Shau Kei Wan seem to be comparatively rare in my experience. Just as well as you’d lose all your fillings and have a numb bum if you did the whole route in one go.

Saw a 30 tram jam a couple of months ago when one tram failed and the rest queued up behind it until it was fixed.

jmh59 · 26 Apr 2019

306024 said:
Trams running the full length of the route between Kennedy Kennedy Town and Shau Kei Wan seem to be comparatively rare in my experience. Just as well as you’d lose all your fillings and have a numb bum if you did the whole route in one go.

The pic I put in #10 is the loop at Shau Kei Wan - not sure how many trams did the whole route, maybe 1 or 2 an hour. I remember we waited a while in the McDonalds there for the tram. But we got off a couple of stops before Kennedy Town as it was getting late by then. This was 2017.

Yeah definitely a bum number!

Double deck trams in Hong Kong

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