Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

DarloRich · 24 Apr 2019

JMPRailwatcher said:
It has been 30 years since Michael Portillo announced that the world famous railway line was not to be closed. Since, it has been through devistation and success. Now, it is what the future holds for the sensationally scenic line.
Please post your thoughts about the Settle & Carlisle Line, its past, its present and its future.
Thank you.

Lots of people will suggest lots of silly ideas about some kind of (London)> Nottingham > Leeds > Carlisle > Glasgow service like there used to be in them olden days, get all nostaglic and then wibble on about how wonderful that would be overlooking it would be slower than the XC route and a complete and utter waste of resources.

my thoughts are it is a scenic, rural route for tourists and a lifeline for locals and should play to those strengths. An hourly service and some nicer rolling stock would help.

RailUK Forums

4-SUB 4732 · 24 Apr 2019

backontrack said:
Bad idea to cut all the direct Leeds-Horton/Ribblehead/Dent/Garsdale services because Yorkshire Dales walkers from the Leeds end are a fairly large part of total Settle & Carlisle Line users. Also, Bingley and Keighley would lose all their services to Settle and points north, which seems a strange decision to make given that these fairly large stations add to this demographic.

There's some merit to your concept, though.

I see it from both sides. I think we can all agree that the route from Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster is horrendously under-served; and that the Settle & Carlisle lacks a half-decent 'clockface' timetable.

Arguably, if people from the likes of Bingley and Keighley need 'local stops' on the Settle & Carlisle, I don't personally believe it unreasonable to suggest they get a service to Skipton and change.

The conceptualised timetable had Carlisle and 'Leeds North West' and on the Leeds North West section, the half-hourly 'stopper' from both Bradford and Skipton continued; the hourly 'express' path (Leeds, Shipley, Skipton) was then supplemented by an hourly Leeds - Skipton to connect with the slow Carlisle every two hours but also adding capacity at Bingley and Keighley. Said service, in the Leeds area, is conceptualised as extending to Selby when the wires get there to create an electric cross-Leeds service.

I know it's total "Pony & Trap" but in theory if I needed to make the journey from Leeds to Carlisle for legitimate regular business purposes I would be somewhat frustrated to know it has to stop everywhere so occasional walkers can get off at every lamp post. If they are going for leisure, I hardly see it as a major hardship for people to be expected to make one change at Skipton which also assists in respect of decent use of units.

CompactDstrxion · 24 Apr 2019

I would like to see more tickets routed via Appleby between West Yorkshire and Scottish stations.

Currently if you live beyond Bradford/Leeds then you don't get the route option to Scotland and I think quite a few passengers would find the slower, cheaper, more scenic route attractive.

4-SUB 4732 · 24 Apr 2019

FelixtheCat said:
In the current timetable, the 15 minute frequency of stopping services between Shipley and Skipton precludes any kind of skip-stop running as you have proposed. Most of the reasons for the stops at Keighley, Bingley etc. are because the train would otherwise have loads of additional pathing minutes. Might as well use those to stop at the more popular stations.

When flighted slightly to create a service gap of approximately 11-19-11-19 you can slot the faster trains into the 19 minute gaps (especially if those are Leeds - Skipton (etc) and people can go over to the Bradford - Skipton platform and get the stoppers. In short, it works. You can also drop the freight paths into the 11 minute gaps between the stoppers.

backontrack · 24 Apr 2019

4-SUB 4732 said:
I see it from both sides. I think we can all agree that the route from Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster is horrendously under-served; and that the Settle & Carlisle lacks a half-decent 'clockface' timetable.

Arguably, if people from the likes of Bingley and Keighley need 'local stops' on the Settle & Carlisle, I don't personally believe it unreasonable to suggest they get a service to Skipton and change.

The conceptualised timetable had Carlisle and 'Leeds North West' and on the Leeds North West section, the half-hourly 'stopper' from both Bradford and Skipton continued; the hourly 'express' path (Leeds, Shipley, Skipton) was then supplemented by an hourly Leeds - Skipton to connect with the slow Carlisle every two hours but also adding capacity at Bingley and Keighley. Said service, in the Leeds area, is conceptualised as extending to Selby when the wires get there to create an electric cross-Leeds service.

I know it's total "Pony & Trap" but in theory if I needed to make the journey from Leeds to Carlisle for legitimate regular business purposes I would be somewhat frustrated to know it has to stop everywhere so occasional walkers can get off at every lamp post. If they are going for leisure, I hardly see it as a major hardship for people to be expected to make one change at Skipton which also assists in respect of decent use of units.

How's this?

1tp2h Leeds-Shipley-Bingley-Keighley-Skipton-Hellifield-Settle-Horton-Ribblehead-Dent-Garsdale-Kirkby Stephen-Appleby-Langwathby-Lazonby-Armathwaite-Carlisle

1tp2h Leeds-Shipley-Keighley-Skipton, where the train divides:

back portion: Gargrave-Hellifield-Long Preston-Giggleswick-Clapham-Bentham-Wellington-Carnforth-Lancaster-Bare Lane-Morecambe, continuing every four hours to Heysham Harbour
front portion: Settle-Kirkby Stephen-Appleby-Carlisle-Annan-Dumfries-Kilmarnock-Stewarton-Barrhead-Glasgow Central
one service per day in each direction starts from/terminates at Bradford Forster Square rather than Leeds

4-SUB 4732 · 24 Apr 2019

backontrack said:
How's this?

1tp2h Leeds-Shipley-Keighley-Skipton, where the train divides:

back portion: Gargrave-Hellifield-Long Preston-Giggleswick-Clapham-Bentham-Wellington-Carnforth-Lancaster-Bare Lane-Morecambe, continuing every four hours to Heysham Harbour

front portion: Settle-Kirkby Stephen-Appleby-Carlisle-Annan-Dumfries-Kilmarnock-Stewarton-Barrhead-Glasgow Central

one service per day in each direction starts from/terminates at Bradford Forster Square rather than Leeds

1tp2h Leeds-Shipley-Bingley-Keighley-Skipton-Hellifield-Settle-Horton-Ribblehead-Dent-Garsdale-Kirkby Stephen-Appleby-Langwathby-Lazonby-Armathwaite-Carlisle

No need for dividing. Not only is it bad for overall punctuality but also doesn't work on the grand scheme of things having different stops between Leeds and Skipton every two hours / hour.

backontrack · 24 Apr 2019

4-SUB 4732 said:
No need for dividing. Not only is it bad for overall punctuality but also doesn't work on the grand scheme of things having different stops between Leeds and Skipton every two hours / hour.

Fine, stop the 'express' at Bingley as well, then.

Esker-pades · 24 Apr 2019

Really, one should be looking at running an hourly service at least as far as Settle. The corresponding path between Skipton and Leeds in the other half hour could be used occasionally with the Lancaster - Leeds services.

I'm not sure what benefit there is to removing any stops between Leeds and Skipton. The time savings would be minimal, and it would mean a downgrade in the services for commuter stations (not good).

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Harpers Tate said:
I took a ride on one of the loco hauled services on the Cumbrian Coast last year. Let's be clear - this isn't any specific kind of enthusiasm for the vintage traction and rolling stock per se - but the interior environment of the Mk2 (?) - space, windows aligned with seats, general comfort etc. - made for an ideal sightseeing trip.

You can get that from an Inverness layout 158 of course

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Harpers Tate said:
I think that here (and probably in other odd locations on the network) there is a huge opportunity missed - to do the exactly same thing; to market and run the route as a tourist attraction primarily, whilst nevertheless maintaining provision for "ordinary" travellers. It need not necessarily be by the use of heritage rolling stock or traction; but to work like this, it certainly needs something better than a badly overcrowded 2-car sprinter every couple of hours - in the season.

And that is something the Swiss are very good at indeed - the narrow gauge lines are primarily public transport services (the few that aren't are excluded from the unlimited-travel Generalabonnement, for example) but have things like observation coaches and First Class for the tourists, as well as special service trains like the Glacier Express (possibly the slowest InterCity train in Europe - and deliberately so!)

Harpers Tate · 24 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You can get that from an Inverness layout 158 of course

Never been on one - but if it is as you describe then, yes, exactly.

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Harpers Tate said:
Never been on one - but if it is as you describe then, yes, exactly.

Even the as-built layout was 100% window-aligned.

4-SUB 4732 · 24 Apr 2019

backontrack said:
Fine, stop the 'express' at Bingley as well, then.

No need.

Simply use an hourly express path that extends every other hour to each of Lancaster and Carlisle (fast); then use a second hourly path with calling points such as Bingley and Keighley for the extra capacity. Finish with a two-hourly Skipton starter (slow) that connects off the slower Leeds - Skipton semi-fast and vice versa.

Harpers Tate · 24 Apr 2019

This isn't about increased state subsidies to cater for an enthusiast minority either - it seems to me that suitable and appropriate marketing alongside proper service/stock provision would in fact make good business sense; would draw customers who actually have no need to travel, and thereby revenue.

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Harpers Tate said:
This isn't about increased state subsidies to cater for an enthusiast minority either - it seems to me that suitable and appropriate marketing alongside proper service/stock provision would in fact make good business sense; would draw customers who actually have no need to travel, and thereby revenue.

Precisely. The Conwy Valley is another potential place where this could be applied. As things stand it's a fairly run-down local train for local people which is an absolute money pit. Yet you could surely fill it up with coach tour passengers if you played the game right.

Roose · 24 Apr 2019

I don't think that Settle, a town of 2500 and a catchment area barely equalling that with little inbound traffic is, in itself, a priority for an hourly service to Skipton and beyond.

duffield · 24 Apr 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Perhaps I'm forgetting but I'm under the impression that Passenger Focus, as was, did some research and came to the conclusion that passengers in general prefer to remain on a train even if a diversion adds a considerable amount of time to the journey rather than a quicker overall journey using train and bus.

Particularly at weekends when most closures occur, when you will get more people with less time constraints and more luggage travelling. I'd rather go round a 2 hour diversion on a 5 hours journey than get a train, then drag several heavy bags/cases to a coach and then back to another train.

Harpers Tate · 24 Apr 2019

Roose said:
I don't think that Settle, a town of 2500 and a catchment area barely equalling that with little inbound traffic is, in itself, a priority for an hourly service to Skipton and beyond.

It's called "tourism" and typically distorts - often substantially - either actual or (importantly) potential traffic in relation to population.

underbank · 24 Apr 2019

Is there not a case for the S&C, Bentham line, Windermere, (maybe even Cumbria Coast and Furness) to be run by a separate franchise, perhaps WCRC, so that they're run by a firm that would have more focus on tourism as opposed to the likes of Northern or TPX that are primarily commuter focussed, but of course with franchise conditions that commuters/school services are still provided as part of the franchise. So, perhaps you could have trains doing the workers/school runs on fairly intensive services start/end of the day which then revert to "touristy" duties during the quiet parts of the day and weekends. Just seems that we need a more tourist-focussed firm to develop these routes.

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Windermere and Barrow needs to be run as an hourly service from Manchester Airport formed of two 100m-ish bi-mode units of InterCity quality splitting and joining at Lancaster. The Cumbrian Coast is primarily local trains for local people, chuck a couple of 3-car 230s on it. The S&C and Bentham Line are an interesting question, though.

ainsworth74 · 24 Apr 2019

For my money the S&C needs to focus on doing what it's doing but a bit better rather than getting into the realms of grandiose schemes such as hiving it off into a special "tourist" franchise or similar. As such I would suggest three interventions which shouldn't be too difficult to introduce or cost that much additional money.

Fettle the timetable so that there is a clock face one train every two hours each way between Carlisle and Leeds throughout the day all year round every day of the week.
Extend services which currently terminate at Clitheroe to Hellifield and try to make sure that they connect with at least one service to/from the S&C.
I do think it's a shame that the line wasn't included as a Northern Connect route however even without that improve the product on offer in terms of rolling stock by ensuring that all services (other than perhaps at the extremes of the day) are four car 158s.

For my money those three interventions should be doable without too much extra spending on resources such as extra units or train crew (though they will certainly be needed!) but will improve the base offer of the line quite considerably from the present situation where we have a roughly two hourly service but without even gaps, you can have 2-car 158s or worse show up (the first time I did the line it was on a 2-car 150!) and outside of Summer Sundays there is little connectivity with Manchester (even then it still requires a change to get to Manchester).

I do think that there is potential behind a Jacobite style steam service over the line in the summer months perhaps running from Skipton to Carlisle with calls at Settle and Appleby on route and if I were the Local Authority/Tourist Board/Friends of the S&C I'd be sounding out West Coast Railways on whether they'd be up for it. But I would say that it's absolutely not the role of the franchised (subsidised!) TOC to be getting involved with. Neither should a heritage operator like WCRC be involved in running the bread and butter service up and down the line.

But for me those are the things that should be the focus in the near term. There's merit in the idea of linking Leeds and maybe even the East Mids with Glasgow via the S&C with a limited stop Intercity quality service as is there in linking Manchester to Carlisle via the S&C to grant access for both tourists and the locals but for me both of those are very much pie in the sky long term ambitions that will take a long time to come to fruition if ever.

quantinghome · 24 Apr 2019

We could perhaps compare a prospective Leeds-Glasgow service with the current Manchester-Glasgow service.

On the face of it they have quite a lot in common. At the southern end they both have a conurbation where they connect the major urban centre to surrounding towns. They then enter a rural area with little demand before hitting Carlisle from where they could share the same route.

The differences which work against Leeds-Glasgow via S&C are:
1. Manchester is a bigger urban centre than Leeds/Bradford, connecting to bigger surrounding towns so demand is generally higher.
2. The WCML provides a significantly shorter journey time than S&C.
3. Leeds-Glasgow has an alternative route already via ECML.

That said I'm not convinced those are enough to kill the idea completely. Living on the west side of Leeds I've often found going via S&C is quicker to get back from Glasgow (and sometimes Edinburgh). The same must be true for large areas of Bradford.

Two trains (say Class 185s) could provide 3 services each way per day. With limited stops between Keighley and Carlisle, an end-to-end journey of 3hr30 should be possible.

Wouldn't that be worth a punt to gauge if the demand is there?

chorleyjeff · 24 Apr 2019

quantinghome said:
We could perhaps compare a prospective Leeds-Glasgow service with the current Manchester-Glasgow service.

On the face of it they have quite a lot in common. At the southern end they both have a conurbation where they connect the major urban centre to surrounding towns. They then enter a rural area with little demand before hitting Carlisle from where they could share the same route.

The differences which work against Leeds-Glasgow via S&C are:
1. Manchester is a bigger urban centre than Leeds/Bradford, connecting to bigger surrounding towns so demand is generally higher.
2. The WCML provides a significantly shorter journey time than S&C.
3. Leeds-Glasgow has an alternative route already via ECML.

That said I'm not convinced those are enough to kill the idea completely. Living on the west side of Leeds I've often found going via S&C is quicker to get back from Glasgow (and sometimes Edinburgh). The same must be true for large areas of Bradford.

Two trains (say Class 185s) could provide 3 services each way per day. With limited stops between Keighley and Carlisle, an end-to-end journey of 3hr30 should be possible.

Wouldn't that be worth a punt to gauge if the demand is there?

Bolton, Preston and Lancaster are rather more than just rural areas. Preston and Lancaster are not part of the Manchester conurbation.
Seems like a solution looking for a problem. Forget the S&C as a fast passenger route and leave it as a rural all stations basic passenger service from Skipton to Carlisle plus freight. After all the S&C never had much of a passenger service but carried quite a lot of freight.

Whistler40145 · 24 Apr 2019

PHILIPE said:
Virgin would rather bus passengers than divert indicating a blatant refusal to divert

I wonder if this will change if Virgin Trains are no longer operating the WCML franchise?

ChiefPlanner · 24 Apr 2019

Whistler40145 said:
I wonder if this will change if Virgin Trains are no longer operating the WCML franchise?

In my view , unlikely - as mentioned before - there are big "haulage" implications and costs (not many 57's available now - though am sure someone will dive in within seconds) - diversions may make sense when you have say a 72 hour block of significance between say Lancaster and Carlisle) - normal engineering access blocks are from the passenger point of view by running the fullest service you can from north of Carlisle or even Glasgow as soon as the line is clear. Better to have a later start at say 1200 - 1300 with a full train service than leave at 1000 with a tedious diversion to deal with. That way you can have more time at home or whatever , and in bed !

The protocol when I left for retirement was that one Anglo-Scottish route would always be available , and increasing use of single line working and simplified bi-di signalling on the core route are useful tools to help run a train service.

Crew learning and knowledge retention costs are not exactly small. These factors will have been considered carefully. Too easy to say "we must divert via Ribblehead"

muddythefish · 24 Apr 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
In my view , unlikely - as mentioned before - there are big "haulage" implications and costs (not many 57's available now - though am sure someone will dive in within seconds) - diversions may make sense when you have say a 72 hour block of significance between say Lancaster and Carlisle) - normal engineering access blocks are from the passenger point of view by running the fullest service you can from north of Carlisle or even Glasgow as soon as the line is clear. Better to have a later start at say 1200 - 1300 with a full train service than leave at 1000 with a tedious diversion to deal with. That way you can have more time at home or whatever , and in bed !

The protocol when I left for retirement was that one Anglo-Scottish route would always be available , and increasing use of single line working and simplified bi-di signalling on the core route are useful tools to help run a train service.

Crew learning and knowledge retention costs are not exactly small. These factors will have been considered carefully. Too easy to say "we must divert via Ribblehead"

It was easy enough in the late 1960s and early 1970s, when the WCML was being electrified. I lived next to the Blackburn - Hellifield line and Sundays was always busy with diversions - passenger and Freightliners.

I'd go by car than be stuck on a rail replacement coach on the motorway.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Apr 2019

muddythefish said:
It was easy enough in the late 1960s and early 1970s, when the WCML was being electrified. I lived next to the Blackburn - Hellifield line and Sundays was always busy with diversions - passenger and Freightliners.

I'd go by car than be stuck on a rail replacement coach on the motorway.

It was , under "one railway" - where you had ample supplies of locomotives at Carlisle , Wigan / Warrington and Preston , (with straigh tforrward coupling arrangements) , a good pool of "go anywhere" train crews keen to augment their basic low wages with some extra weekend work , and basically a much reduced "Inter City" service pattern at weekends.

Any Freightliner trains you may have seen would have been 8 ft high boxes - they certainly would not fit today !

muddythefish · 24 Apr 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
It was , under "one railway" - where you had ample supplies of locomotives at Carlisle , Wigan / Warrington and Preston , (with straigh tforrward coupling arrangements) , a good pool of "go anywhere" train crews keen to augment their basic low wages with some extra weekend work , and basically a much reduced "Inter City" service pattern at weekends.

"One railway" with flexible train crews and standard equipment locos....another good argument for renationalisation.

trebor79 · 25 Apr 2019

muddythefish said:
"One railway" with flexible train crews and standard equipment locos....another good argument for renationalisation.

Meh. BR had plenty of different and incompatible coupling and multiple working systems
BR may be missed, there's an argument it shouldn't have been privatised. But it was. It's gone. Nationalisation won't bring it back.

Condor7 · 25 Apr 2019

I’m not a railway man, or an expert on timetabling or all the other things suggested in this thread, but living near the Settle & Carlisle I know what I see. Try catching the service from Leeds. Mainly just a two car 158 sometimes strengthened with a 153. The doors are not opened until about 5 mins before departure and every door has a horde of passengers congregated around it and as the doors unlock a log jam of passengers all try and get on as quickly as possible. Why? For the same reason I am one of them. The train gets packed, finding a window seat with a good view is at a premium. When I travel home I could just as easily start my journey from Shipley as Leeds but the chances of a decent seat from there are slim.

All this to travel on an ageing 158. As mentioned by others, other countries would have long exploited the potential of this route. I would guarantee that a regular clock face service with quality rolling stock would double the current passenger numbers, which would of course bring us back to the same problem of getting a seat but would make the line far more attractive to other operators.

Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

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