Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

Meerkat · 24 Apr 2019

I think it’s a great idea.
Considering all the other expensive safety hoops the railway has to jump through it is just isn’t really on to have people standing at 125mph.
It’s also horrible for those sitting in aisle seats, and anyone who needs the loo or food/drink (both basic requirements on a long train journey). More people might travel if they know they will get a seat without someone’s bum and handbag in their face, and be able to wander about.
If there aren’t enough seats for those wanting to travel then that is no different from now - there is still a limited capacity now - but you will know in advance whether or not you will get on.
It will also improve the business case for increasing capacity properly.

RailUK Forums

Andyh82 · 24 Apr 2019

You can see their point, you often get Twitter comments aimed at the operators saying stuff like ‘why are you overbooking, putting profit before passenger comfort and safety’

Two annoying things about today’s story, one the many click bait headlines that have been associated with it “Virgin to ban standing” suggesting its started today and no doubt people will throw it back at them next time they are on a Virgin Train that is full and standing, and secondly the compulsory quote from Mick Cash that accompanies every rail story, a stock negative response about every single topic.

jopsuk · 24 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The original XC proposal was, I believe, for three classes (hence three accessible bogs) and compulsory reservations.

I think it's likely we will end up with that kind of system for HS2. But before that, now VRG is to come to an end, they're going to propose anything that can get them a few extra quid - witness the Weekend First price hikes.

They won't necessarily get what they want, however.

I think West Coast was a similar idea, hence the original Pendolino layout with 4 standard and 4 first class carriages

6Gman · 24 Apr 2019

squizzler said:
Overcrowding can be very anxiety inducing to many people. There are so-called hidden disabilities which can result in suffers being unable - or make it especially distressing - to travel on services which are crowded. We must not only think of accessibility in terms of wheelchairs!

And pottering around Euston for two hours waiting for a train to Preston which has available seats on it can also be very anxiety inducing ...

F Great Eastern · 24 Apr 2019

Andyh82 said:
You can see their point, you often get Twitter comments aimed at the operators saying stuff like ‘why are you overbooking, putting profit before passenger comfort and safety’

Well if this comes to pass, they won't have this problem at all, as if they don't pre-book they won't be traveling at all. They will moan about that too about not being allowed to travel on a train and being stuck somewhere when they should be allowed to board.

I have been on services before where people have not been allowed to board because of the fact the train is full and they has been blue murder almost. If they start doing that for anyone who hasn't pre-booked I wouldn't like to be platform staff.

Imagine the situation where person A wants to travel but is told they cannot as there is no seats free to book. A few people don't turn up and they are banned from traveling on a service with free seats and ask to stand and they are not allowed because of these new rules.

Leaving passengers at the station stranded because they are not allowed to get on a train that has room from them is an absolute joke and this is what will happen if this comes to pass. That's before you take into account those who missed their connections, delays, disruption and those who have to travel long distances last minute who will simply switch to a car or other modes.

chris_in_salop · 24 Apr 2019

The railway really does despise its customers doesn't it!

Class83 · 24 Apr 2019

It's a bit of a 'Yes Minister' question. Do you want to end standing on trains? Yes of course who doesn't. If plans change, do you want to be able to get an earlier train? Yes of course who doesn't.

The railways have not arrived from the moon, they have been around for nearly 200 years and passengers are used to having the ability to buy a ticket which allows them to board the next train to their station. The idea of cheap Apex/Advance tickets works, mostly on longer distance planned journeys, but these are increasingly not that much cheaper than Off-Peak tickets and therefore not worth the restriction. They talk about increasing frequency at peak times, the only real variation I'm aware of on VTWC is that Euston-Liverpool is 2 per hour in the peak. Birmingham and Manchester are already maxed out all day. There simply isn't space to run more trains at peak time so that's just rubbish. They could maybe offer a few extra late trains offering discounted tickets for arriving after midnight into Liverpool/Manchester or vice versa.

Compulsory pre-booking may work on long distance, limited stop services such as those to be operated by HS2, as they do on Eurostar and many HSR networks already. However, the WCML is going to increasingly serve local stations when HS2 starts which would move it in the opposite direction.

Deepgreen · 24 Apr 2019

The moment the railway turns into a reserve-only transport mode will be a disaster. 'Turn up and go' has to be preserved, and if Virgin can't, or won't, cope with demand, get rid of them (and other similar TOCs). Why is standing at 125mph suddenly so unsafe?! Where does this end - is the standing allowance steadily reduced until every passenger has to book a seat everywhere?! Virgin appear to be displaying petulance in the face of their franchise threat. Pathetic.

td97 · 24 Apr 2019

It's nice idea that could be tested on a small scale operation...
Given Arriva have been hopeless trying to get their Euston - Blackpool service started, I'd say let the paths expire and open them up for applications again, and if Virgin/Stagecoach were to be successful...
Virgin/Stagecoach could continue a small WCML operation as an open access operator, reservation-only, no walk-ons. Their operation, their rules and their fares. It would be a perfect test-bed. An added benefit is they already have experience operating on the line.
As an aside, if the new WCML operator turns out to be basket-case, they shouldn't have an issue recruiting staff or attracting customers :lol:

.

Statto · 24 Apr 2019

How do you police it though, especially at interchange stations like Crewe, & other smaller stations like Warrington, VT are the only operator that operate the direct route Crewe-Warrington-Wigan & they're mostly anglo Scottish long distance services, that also operate as a local service between these stations, how do you sort that out. Plus those of us that do use flexible tickets, sometimes we decide to miss booked train[if we have a seat reservation] & catch an earlier/later one, especially if there's any disruption.

The idea of the train is, i can see what the weather is like, whether i decide to have a day out like last Friday or go out regardless, & then turn up & go on the day, if i have to stand, i have to stand, trains are not like planes or coaches were duplicates can be put on[National Express coaches put duplicates on quite often] train has to have a path, so if you put duplicate train on for turn up & go passengers where does the pathing come from, & what other services would be cancelled to make way?

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Meerkat said:
Considering all the other expensive safety hoops the railway has to jump through it is just isn’t really on to have people standing at 125mph.

It is safe, though. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be safe to have people walking around either.

yorkie · 24 Apr 2019

Meerkat said:
...More people might travel if they know they will get a seat without someone’s bum and handbag in their face, and be able to wander about.

How will more people travel if walk up fares are no longer available and intending passengers are told they cannot board?

Is this sarcasm?

Meerkat said:
... If there aren’t enough seats for those wanting to travel then that is no different from now ...

At times of high demand Virgin is unable to charge more than the appropriate walk up fare and Virgon have made it very clear on many occasions that they believe the regulated (SVR) fare is too low, and presents a cap that Virgin (and some other companies) would like to see removed.

Fares regulation results in fares being a level that Virgin sees as too low and 'distorting' the market. Trains like the 1900 from Euston could command a higher price if they were allowed to restrict the train to Advance ticket holders only and prevent walk up passengers.

It is unsurprising that most people are therefore critical of these proposals.

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

yorkie said:
At times of high demand Virgin is unable to charge more than the appropriate walk up fare and Virgon have made it very clear on many occasions that they believe the regulated (SVR) fare is too low, and presents a cap that Vorgin (and some other companies) would like to see removed.

Fares regulation results in fares being a level that Virgon sees as too low and 'distorting' the market. Trains like the 1900 from Euston could command a higher price if they were allowed to restrict the train to Advance ticket holders only and prevent walk up passengers.

It is unsurprising that most people are therefore critical of these proposals.

And this is the nub of the issue. "You're guaranteed a seat" is a way of hiding the real bad part of the proposal - swingeing fare hikes.

Statto · 24 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It is safe, though. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be safe to have people walking around either.

Exactly, is it isn't safe why do VT have on board shop then, & encourage passengers to buy stuff from them, which for most passengers means walking up & down the train?

stj · 24 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I believe a Concorde was used at least once.

Yes it was

stj · 24 Apr 2019

I used to live in Blackpool and "Regulation Tickets" were used on busy summer trains years ago.Without one you could not get on the train.Not sure if it was seating only though.The APT was seating only and you needed a boarding card.

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Statto said:
Exactly, is it isn't safe why do VT have on board shop then, & encourage passengers to buy stuff from them, which for most passengers means walking up & down the train?

It is safe, and VT aren't saying that it isn't. The only people who are saying that it isn't are people who are ignorant of the actual issues, most significantly the approach to retaining people safely within the vehicle in a train (strong bodywork and windows) and a car/coach (seat belts).

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

stj said:
I used to live in Blackpool and "Regulation Tickets" were used on busy summer trains years ago.Without one you could not get on the train.Not sure if it was seating only though.The APT was seating only and you needed a boarding card.

The reason for that was allegedly the split in the middle, which while that's well-known these days wasn't at the time and they didn't want people in the wrong bit.

I reckon the APT-S, which was to have had a power car at one end, wouldn't have had that feature.

HSTEd · 24 Apr 2019

I am not convinced even HS2 should have compulsory reservations.

Most of the HS2 trains will have stop spacings of less than an hour.

We have trains that run non stop for more than that as it is.

Is someone standing from Birmingham to Old Oak or even from Birmingham International to Old Oak really a problem?
Especially given the capacity limits placed upon it by the various design decisions that have been made.

(And even though the maximum possible capacity is enormous, I expect the slash of journey times to lead to explosive growth, especially if they resist the temptation to try and establish a premium fare structure)

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

HSTEd said:
I am not convinced even HS2 should have compulsory reservations.

I would certainly prefer to see DB-style operations than SNCF-style - i.e. a Taktfahrplan (both parts of it - clockface timetable *and* coordination of connections) and walk-up fares.

Chester1 · 24 Apr 2019

There is an argument for selling 1tph of paths for each main line to give some competition to the franchise holder (or potential future state owned national operator). Essentially it would be a progression of open access but better for the public purse. As a full scale policy it would be nuts though!

Compulsory reservations with no exceptions would not work but there is definitely an argument for compulsory reservations + season ticket holders (with a couple of unreserved coaches). Eurostar business class style open return tickets would make sense in this situation. You can book a seat to use your ticket until shortly before departure. If there are no reservations left you have to wait for another service. Its a good compromise between airline style tickets and the current system.

plymothian · 24 Apr 2019

As I've said all along when passengers complain about standing, we now have a no win situtation. Passengers complain of "overbooking" saying that trains should be reservation only, so now when a proposal comes in, they complain their right to travel when they want is restricted. Certainly another case of you shouldn't always listen to the people to decide things.

Meerkat · 24 Apr 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It is safe, though. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be safe to have people walking around either.

People walk around on airliners....
The risk is clearly much higher for a crushloaded train than a handful of people walking about

yorkie said:
How will more people travel if walk up fares are no longer available and intending passengers are told they cannot board?

The offering becomes more attractive, and there is no reason the booking couldn’t be as late as when you leave the pub.....

Personally I would have a system that fined the operator (or ‘standing repay’ for all onboard) if they weren’t making all reasonable attempts to provide capacity - yes I am looking at you SWR with your short trains on Saturdays.....

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

Meerkat said:
People walk around on airliners....

Not during take-off and landing they don't. And trains don't suddenly enter severe turbulence (even if Pacers might feel like they do).

And you don't have to evacuate a train within 30 seconds in the event of a fire otherwise everyone dies. With a train the presumption is to remain on board as the safest option in almost every conceivable case. And if for any reason that's not the case, there are a lot more, bigger doors on trains.

The risk is not even remotely similar. Do you think, for example, that bicycles propped against doors would be tolerated on a flight?

The risk is clearly much higher for a crushloaded train than a handful of people walking about

It absolutely is not - the complete opposite in fact - you can't fly into a partition if you're in a crush-load.

To summarise, there are things in favour of this approach, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with safety, and not even VT are suggesting that they do.

Personally I would have a system that fined the operator (or ‘standing repay’ for all onboard) if they weren’t making all reasonable attempts to provide capacity - yes I am looking at you SWR with your short trains on Saturdays.....

There are PIXC (passengers in excess of capacity) penalties in franchise agreements already. Unfortunately the one that applied to LM (and now to LNR) was not adequately swingeing that it was cheaper to cough it up rather than get some 350/2s out and avoid running 4-car sets around with a crush load.

Bevan Price · 24 Apr 2019

Statto said:
How do you police it though, especially at interchange stations like Crewe, & other smaller stations like Warrington, VT are the only operator that operate the direct route Crewe-Warrington-Wigan & they're mostly anglo Scottish long distance services, that also operate as a local service between these stations, how do you sort that out. Plus those of us that do use flexible tickets, sometimes we decide to miss booked train[if we have a seat reservation] & catch an earlier/later one, especially if there's any disruption.

Exactly - they cannot afford to have staff checking reservations at every carriage door - quite apart from increased station dwell times that would be a consequence. And if they try to penalise passengers who get on board without a reservation, there would be massive adverse publicity. And as some courts take a dim view of "unfair conditions of trade", would they get much support if they took people to court for refusal to pay "no reservation penalties" ??

sjpowermac · 24 Apr 2019

yorkie said:
At times of high demand Virgin is unable to charge more than the appropriate walk up fare and Virgon have made it very clear on many occasions that they believe the regulated (SVR) fare is too low, and presents a cap that Vorgin (and some other companies) would like to see removed.

Fares regulation results in fares being a level that Virgon sees as too low and 'distorting' the market. Trains like the 1900 from Euston could command a higher price if they were allowed to restrict the train to Advance ticket holders only and prevent walk up passengers.

It is unsurprising that most people are therefore critical of these proposals.

Is the correct answer. For those supporting VT, just watch those fares go through the roof.

Also, here’s a little nugget from the official document that should ring a few alarm bells on commuter routes:

‘For example, if a long-distance operator served a commuter market as part of its route,
these commuters would still be required to reserve seats if they wanted to use this long-distance service rather than local commuter services.’

VT want it all, along with ‘light touch’ regulation...

sjpowermac · 24 Apr 2019

Train failed or some infrastructure problem? Forget getting on the next one, you likely won’t be allowed. I hope reliability improves all round. It seems the hotel business might be a good one to invest in...

‘Of course, in significant disruption there would be difficult choices to be made. Either the operator would have to allow standing passengers, or those customers whose train was cancelled would need to wait for a train that had space. Our preference in this situation would be to open a limited number of ‘standing reservations’. This would allow customers who preferred
to stand to still travel, whilst preventing the train becoming overwhelmed. Other customers would wait for later trains, and if there were still not enough spaces for all passengers to travel that day, train companies would need
to book taxis, coaches or hotels.’

Glenn1969 · 24 Apr 2019

I agree if they had their way prices would skyrocket. But surely that would backfire because it would force people into their cars and off the trains maybe for good

Kite159 · 24 Apr 2019

Bevan Price said:
Exactly - they cannot afford to have staff checking reservations at every carriage door - quite apart from increased station dwell times that would be a consequence. And if they try to penalise passengers who get on board without a reservation, there would be massive adverse publicity. And as some courts take a dim view of "unfair conditions of trade", would they get much support if they took people to court for refusal to pay "no reservation penalties" ??

Picture the scene at Coventry when a New Street terminating 11 coach Pendo rolls in around 5pm, "oh sorry sir you can't travel on this lightly loaded service as you don't have a reservation, you need to wait 5 minutes for the crush loaded commuter service behind"

Bletchleyite · 24 Apr 2019

sjpowermac said:
‘For example, if a long-distance operator served a commuter market as part of its route,
these commuters would still be required to reserve seats if they wanted to use this long-distance service rather than local commuter services.’

VT want it all, along with ‘light touch’ regulation...

They're going to have fun when all those MKC season ticket holders get their reservations in so VT can't sell those same seats to Euston-Manchester Anytime passengers, aren't they?

(One advantage of not having compulsory reservations is that the use of seats is more efficient - with all compulsory reservation systems I've seen no ticket will be sold if there isn't one single seat free for the whole journey)

Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

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