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Eurostar : Why are there no speed and distance in UK measurements?

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whhistle

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Oh right, you took what I quoted literally. Good on you!
Of course [the Swiss] don't vote on "every little thing" but they allow the people to vote on a lot more than what we do in the UK is my point.
We've had two referendums in, what 40 years?
I don't think that's the best way forward.
 
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SS4

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The Swiss do.
I think we should have more referendums and allow the people of the country to decide what happens. No re-runs, no changes. If you can't be bothered to vote, that's your downfall.

Isn't that why we have representatives though? The two referenda we've had this decade have both been plighted by misinformation and scare tactics. The only way I could even come close to agreeing is if the fairness doctrine applied to TV news also applied to all media. In the current climate there is no way people can be expected to make an informed decision. They can of course but very few are going to.

Something else I learned at school. 1,000 calories (small c) = 1 Calorie (capital C),
Look at food packages now and they do not use Calories but use kcal which makes more sense. They also use kj but that is a unit I have never learned.

The joule is a measurement of energy or work and is equivalent to many things depending on which field you're looking at but here it's easiest to say it's power multiplied by time - you could measure your electric use in KJ (or MJ) instead of kWh.

Compared to calories 1 kJ is 4.2 kcal

On the topic at hand I don't see why Eurostar should bend over backwards to support an antiquated system
 

Harbornite

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Can't imagine getting upset over different units of measurement, some people need to chill out.
 
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hexagon789

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Makes sense though.
You definitely cover them quicker. ;)

Very true! :lol:

It's not that I don't like the mph or having anything against its use, it's simply that moving to full metrication is a logical progression of our long-time partial metrication.

I wonder if road or rail will go over first?
 

Cowley

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Very true! :lol:

It's not that I don't like the mph or having anything against its use, it's simply that moving to full metrication is a logical progression of our long-time partial metrication.

I wonder if road or rail will go over first?
I’d imagine rail. Purely for the reason that there’d be less public outrage to get through first...
 

hexagon789

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I’d imagine rail. Purely for the reason that there’d be less public outrage to get through first...

I was thinking the same and for the same reasons funnily enough. Which would be the opposite of Canada and Ireland which are both km/h on the roads but predominantly mph on railways.
 

Cowley

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I was thinking the same and for the same reasons funnily enough. Which would be the opposite of Canada and Ireland which are both km/h on the roads but predominantly mph on railways.
I didn’t know that. Is it mph on those systems because of the amount of cross boarder workings onto mph based systems then?
 

GusB

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I think often there's a general distrust of decimalisation/metrication, and especially among older people. I remember my papa bemoaning the fact that when we switched from old pence to new pence, he got one less cup of tea from a two-bob bit. Pre-decimalisation he'd be able to by 6 cups at 2d per cup, and then it went to 2p per cup.

Another example, and this is from my own fairly recent experience: For years we had doorstep milk, delivered by a local dairy firm. It was mostly in glass bottles, and always pints. In the past they would occasionally deliver Tetrapaks, but it was still always a full pint. Then they started with the plastic "pint" bottles that contained 500ml and cost the same. Initially it was just the one bottle that was replaced by the smaller version, then two, and so on. The reduction in the quantity, coupled with the gradual reduction in the frequency of deliveries and the fact that it was far cheaper to buy from the supermarket, spelled the end for doorstep milk for us.

I still buy milk in 4-pint bottles, though.
 

ainsworth74

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I wonder if road or rail will go over first?

I would argue that rail is already on the way! The tram networks and light rail like the Tyne and Wear Metro are fully metric, HS1 is built and operated in metric, the new signalling system ERTMS as seen on the Cambrian and maybe someday coming to a mainline near you is in km/h and I have a feeling that new bits of infrastructure are also done in metric.
 

krus_aragon

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Oh right, you took what I quoted literally. Good on you!
Of course [the Swiss] don't vote on "every little thing" but they allow the people to vote on a lot more than what we do in the UK is my point.
We've had two referendums in, what 40 years?
I don't think that's the best way forward.
Depends where you live. Starting in the 1970s, most of England has seen 3 (two European and an Alternative Vote one). London, NE England, Scotland and Wales have had between one and three devolution referenda on top, and Northern Ireland have had an extra two themselves too.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom
 

transmanche

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I remember my papa bemoaning the fact that when we switched from old pence to new pence, he got one less cup of tea from a two-bob bit. Pre-decimalisation he'd be able to by 6 cups at 2d per cup, and then it went to 2p per cup.
That doesn't make sense. If a cup of tea was 2d, then you would get 12 cups from 2/- (or 10p). If it changed to 2p a cup, you would get 5 cups from 10p (or 2/-).

Perhaps the cost went from 4d to 2p a cup?
 

AM9

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I think often there's a general distrust of decimalisation/metrication, and especially among older people. I remember my papa bemoaning the fact that when we switched from old pence to new pence, he got one less cup of tea from a two-bob bit. Pre-decimalisation he'd be able to by 6 cups at 2d per cup, and then it went to 2p per cup.

Another example, and this is from my own fairly recent experience: For years we had doorstep milk, delivered by a local dairy firm. It was mostly in glass bottles, and always pints. In the past they would occasionally deliver Tetrapaks, but it was still always a full pint. Then they started with the plastic "pint" bottles that contained 500ml and cost the same. Initially it was just the one bottle that was replaced by the smaller version, then two, and so on. The reduction in the quantity, coupled with the gradual reduction in the frequency of deliveries and the fact that it was far cheaper to buy from the supermarket, spelled the end for doorstep milk for us.

I still buy milk in 4-pint bottles, though.
Metrication didn't cause some prices to rise, that was the result of unscrupulous businesses. The UK has had decimal currency since 1971 and there have been plenty of unannounced price rises in commodities since then. The media coined the term 'shrinkflation' to the practice of maintaining the package price whilst reducing the quantity of the item.
Incidentally, if your father was getting six cups of tea for a two-bob bit, he was paying 4d each. They certainly weren't 2d each.
As far as retailers taking advantage of metrication goes, they only succeed because so many people were ignorant of the difference through refusing to engage in the extensive public information campaign that ran before introduction. They shunned it at their peril!
 
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hexagon789

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I didn’t know that. Is it mph on those systems because of the amount of cross boarder workings onto mph based systems then?

I believe that is certainly the predominate reason for Canada and one of those for Ireland.

I would argue that rail is already on the way! The tram networks and light rail like the Tyne and Wear Metro are fully metric, HS1 is built and operated in metric, the new signalling system ERTMS as seen on the Cambrian and maybe someday coming to a mainline near you is in km/h and I have a feeling that new bits of infrastructure are also done in metric.

Well yes, but some light rail systems in Canada and the DART in Dublin are km/h; mainline heavy rail is still there and here predominately mph.
 

GusB

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That doesn't make sense. If a cup of tea was 2d, then you would get 12 cups from 2/- (or 10p). If it changed to 2p a cup, you would get 5 cups from 10p (or 2/-).

Perhaps the cost went from 4d to 2p a cup?
The story was told a long time ago, so I'm happy to be corrected on the actual numbers , but my point was that my grandfather felt slightly cheated at the changeover.
 

DavidGrain

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The fact that Irish Rail operates in mph has nothing to do with the cross border service as far as I am aware. Speed limits change from km/h to mph at the road crossings on the border. I think it is purely the fact that the railway system is a mature system and there is no external requirement to change as it does not affect the general public. Passengers are more interested in the time it takes to get from Dublin to Galway than whether the distance is measured in miles or kilometres. Incidentally the last time I did that journey we arrived in Galway exactly one hour late because of a late running freight train at one of the crossing points causing us to miss our path through later crossing points.
 

Lucan

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Metrication didn't cause some prices to rise, that was the result of unscrupulous businesses. .....As far as retailers taking advantage of metrication goes, they only succeed because so many people were ignorant of the difference through refusing to engage in the extensive public information campaign that ran before introduction. They shunned it at their peril!
Most people were not ignorant. It made no difference how much you "engaged in the extensive public information campaign", when all the grocers eg charged the same in new pence as they did in old pence there was nothing you could do about it - unless what? You went on hunger strike? You trashed the shop?

I'm not stupid, perfectly capable of converting units, and am well aware of when I am being diddled. For example when I ask why my house insurance is so much higher than it was 10 years ago (any quote, and >> inflation) I'm told it is because of "increased flooding risk" - but I live on a hill that is the highest point for miles around. "It can affect anyone, sir!" they say. BS, but what can I do? - not insure my house?

People are right to be suspicious of a change of units because they know the traders will use it to pull a fast one, and the politicians say "It's just market forces".
 

edwin_m

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The fact that Irish Rail operates in mph has nothing to do with the cross border service as far as I am aware. Speed limits change from km/h to mph at the road crossings on the border. I think it is purely the fact that the railway system is a mature system and there is no external requirement to change as it does not affect the general public. Passengers are more interested in the time it takes to get from Dublin to Galway than whether the distance is measured in miles or kilometres. Incidentally the last time I did that journey we arrived in Galway exactly one hour late because of a late running freight train at one of the crossing points causing us to miss our path through later crossing points.
I'm told that in the Dublin area the railway signs are in mph but the ATP system uses km/h.
 

AM9

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Most people were not ignorant.
I didn't write (or even intimate) that 'most people were ignorant'. Please read again what I actually wrote rather than getting indignant about what you think I wrote.
It made no difference how much you "engaged in the extensive public information campaign", when all the grocers eg charged the same in new pence as they did in old pence there was nothing you could do about it - unless what? You went on hunger strike? You trashed the shop?
Had the majority of the shopping public familiarised themselves with the simple changes that metrication brought in prices, (selling in metric quantities came much later), retailers trying it on would have been called out a lot quicker and more often. Amongst the worst were market traders who with their 'NP' prices which like all market prices shifted around, were in my experience pulling fast ones in the casual environment that they trade in.
I'm not stupid, perfectly capable of converting units, and am well aware of when I am being diddled.
Me too, and AFAIK so were most of my family and friends, but as I wrote above, many didn't have a clue about the UK's new currency, partly because they had already decided that they didn't need to because they would stick with the old LSD money.
For example when I ask why my house insurance is so much higher than it was 10 years ago (any quote, and >> inflation) I'm told it is because of "increased flooding risk" - but I live on a hill that is the highest point for miles around. "It can affect anyone, sir!" they say. BS, but what can I do? - not insure my house?
Well if you had taken notice of announcements in 2016 when the government introduced a flood levy to insurance to spread the cost over all householder insurance policies, you wouldn't have needed to ask the question. Here is a link to the history and some other information on the 2016 changes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_Re
People are right to be suspicious of a change of units because they know the traders will use it to pull a fast one, and the politicians say "It's just market forces".
That's because they know that when 'people' can't be bothered to take notice of the news, changes in the law and public notices and information designed to help them, they will be the ones who less scrupulous businesses will target.

This is way off topic as decimal currency is not really what the thread is about so I'll leave it at that.
 

Lucan

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I didn't write (or even intimate) that 'most people were ignorant'. Please read again what I actually wrote rather than getting indignant about what you think I wrote.
I can read and I did not say that you did say that most people were ignorant. You said "... so many people were ignorant ..." which could be anything from a few hundred to the entire population.

In the light of that vagueness I made the point that most people (ie well over 50% in my estimation) were not ignorant, and perfectly well aware at least in broad terms of the relationship between new and old money; they certainly knew that one new "P" was worth a bit more than 2 old pence. No-one I knew had much problem with that even if they did not do the exact maths. But, and this was my main point, it did not stop traders and spivs hiking up prices in real terms anyway.

Had the majority of the shopping public familiarised themselves with the simple changes .... retailers trying it on would have been called out a lot quicker and more often.
They were called out. It made no difference, like many other examples of "callings-out" of politicians and businesses that happen all the time but make no difference. The Man in the Street just has to take it on the chin, or walk away if that is an option.
 

DavidGrain

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I cannot accept that traders charged the same price in new pence as in old pence. This never happened in my experience.

The government at the time did admit that the decimalisation did increase retail price inflation by 5% which is a lot less than 140% which is what happens if you change the sign from d to p but remember the 1971 rate of inflation was 9.4% (information from Google)
 

LAX54

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Anyway with modern signalling systems left or righthand running in railways is more and more losing meaning. Lines are very easily made bi-directional.

Although it is still left hand running in normal circumstances, yes you can go bi-di in certain places, but this is still counted by many as 'wrong road or running bi-di' we have a small amount of bi-di here, as with most bi-di only used in times of strife or Engineering work. ( and if we ever had two in the same direction at the same time... tut tut ! :) )
 

LAX54

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The Americans still can’t cope with the 24hr clock, with the result that it requires more effort to understand timetables for a European used to the simplicity and logic of the 24hr system.

Many in the UK can't cope with times like 1415 or 2015 ! but it easy to still understand 2.15pm or 8.15pm
 

AM9

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I can read and I did not say that you did say that most people were ignorant. You said "... so many people were ignorant ..." which could be anything from a few hundred to the entire population. ...
I wrote: "so many people were ignorant of the difference ...", which is nothing like saying that anybody was 'ignorant' per se. I've emboldened the relevant words to make it easier for you to see the context in which I used the word 'ignorant'. It is no more an insult to 'people' than saying that I am ignorant of the techniques of brain surgery. Please read sentences in full before looking to be offended, (on behalf of others of course).
 
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