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Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

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AM9

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Lots of the general public just don't simply seem to grasp that if too many people turn up to travel at precisely the same time, there is no way the railway can reasonably accommodate them at that exact moment, even if every train path was used and every train running at full length.
Yes that's true but more often (to modify your words) it's a case of:
"if too many people turn up to travel at precisely the same time, there is no way the railway can reasonably can provide seats for all of them at that exact moment" Most people understand that but egged on by the media will make that sound like a third-world failure. If they were prohibited from travelling altogether, that could well be described as a third-world attitude to travel especially where it prevented essential journeys to be made.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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and secondly the compulsory quote from Mick Cash that accompanies every rail story, a stock negative response about every single topic.

Mr Cash possibly forgets that SNCF, RENFE, Trenitalia and PKP are state owned and operate reservation-compulsory trains - even regional ones in the case of RENFE.
Several EU states are also moving to an open access model, particularly on high-speed lines where there is spare capacity.

Roger Ford has a piece in May Modern Railways about the emerging government thinking on the possible "East Coast Partnership" business models (which therefore impacts the Williams review process).
They all involve different levels of public-private partnership, depending on who is taking the risk.
All of them will give the RMT apoplexy.
 
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squizzler

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Mr Cash possibly forgets that SNCF, RENFE, Trenitalia and PKP are state owned and operate reservation-compulsory trains - even regional ones in the case of RENFE.
Several EU states are also moving to an open access model, particularly on high-speed lines where there is spare capacity.

Roger Ford has a piece in May Modern Railways about the emerging government thinking on the possible "East Coast Partnership" business models (which therefore impacts the Williams review process).
They all involve different levels of public-private partnership, depending on who is taking the risk.
All of them will give the RMT apoplexy.

Not only state owned railways but state owned airlines too. Most governments regard their intercity railways and airlines as 'flag carriers' and aim for a premium feel on grounds of national prestige as well as )or in some cases despite) simple commercial pressure.

I think it’s a great idea.
Considering all the other expensive safety hoops the railway has to jump through it is just isn’t really on to have people standing at 125mph.
It’s also horrible for those sitting in aisle seats, and anyone who needs the loo or food/drink (both basic requirements on a long train journey). More people might travel if they know they will get a seat without someone’s bum and handbag in their face, and be able to wander about.
If there aren’t enough seats for those wanting to travel then that is no different from now - there is still a limited capacity now - but you will know in advance whether or not you will get on.
It will also improve the business case for increasing capacity properly.

I agree. Intercity rail is at odds with other premium products. You would not expect people standing in the aisles at the cinema. Neither would you want people eating their food while stood up behind you a restaurant. An intercity train is a premium product too: just like there are cheaper ways to watch films or eat, there are cheaper ways to travel long distance.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Perhaps the sensible solution would to run trains where you can reserve a seat if you want to but to also have a couple of unreservable coaches for people who just want to turn up and go?

Oh, hang on......
 

Kite159

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Or do it as you're walking across the station forecourt/concourse.

Barely any different to using your phone to find out the time of the next train. Just click 'Reserve my seat' while you're at it.

Walking to the station after work running late due to a meeting which ran over, arriving at around 17:30.

"We are sorry but there are no more trains available to your destination station this evening which has available seats"

or

"The next available service which has a seat available is the 20:36"
 

hwl

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Walking to the station after work running late due to a meeting which ran over, arriving at around 17:30.

"We are sorry but there are no more trains available to your destination station this evening which has available seats"

or

"The next available service which has a seat available is the 20:36"
This is much more likely to be the reality.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is much more likely to be the reality.

Indeed. The practical use-case is you'd be forced to book onto the latest train you are likely to need, then see if you can move it earlier on getting to the station - if not, you're going to have to kill some time. Just like flights.
 

wezmerc

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The biggest retailer for people complaining thinking they have reservations I see across most TOC Twitter feeds is 'thetrainline'. Whether deliberately or accidentally their system can be very vague on the success or otherwise of a reservation request.
 

Master29

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Frankly I'd rather stand than find I've been allocated a zero legroom aisle seat with no window by it. This would be an utter disaster , luckily it has zero chance of getting off the ground, except perhaps when HS2 rears its head.
Indeed, and not only this, Virgin may soon be disappearing anyway. Odd that this piece crops up just a week or so after the Stagecoach fiasco.
 

185

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One of the great benefits of our antiquated railway system in Britain is the flexibility to just get on and go.

1) No "composter" boxes to stamp your ticket or forget...
2) No "train complet" full! - can't get that one it's full! (but you walk past piles of empty seats at Euston, who didn't turn up or are travelling from "Stockport to Manchester" but NO you still can't get on)...
3) No mandatory you *MUST* sit there reservations with eleven screaming vomiting babies on the table infront of you and someone's pet dog using your leg as a lamp post, and the chap in the seat behind keeps stroking you hair...

AARGH! No. Not here. Virgin can take these ideas and try inflict them on our American cousins instead.

2zewdd.jpg


As usual, this was written by a bunch of people who spend little time on trains, and when they do, it's in mostly empty first class. In their mind, the Vol-au-vents being served at 63 degrees takes priority over the other 7 coaches of cattle class.
 

philjo

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One thing that would need addressing is the ability to make seat reservations online independently from tickets.
At present these have to be done at the ticket office. Also, is there an easy process to change these at short notice?
When I was travelling on an interrail ticket a couple of years ago there were some services that needed compulsory reservations and I was able to book these online via the DB and OEBB sites.
My TGV reservation had the ability to change it to a different train up to 15 minutes before departure.

If it is not easy to cancel/change reservations, you end up with the current problem where there are a number of reserved seats that are not being used as the passengers are on a different service.
 

gazzaa2

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Theres no guarantee with a reserved seat for a variety of reasons. I went from Birmingham to Devon the other week on Cross Country and had a seat booked for a midday midweek service. Due to problems with the line the previous day the service downgraded from 8 car to 4 car which meant half the passengers couldn't use their seat reservation. As it wasn't the busiest time of day it wasn't as crowded as it could have been but was still standing room only past Bristol.

You're never going to stop crowded trains, whether it's short formed carriages, cancellations, another line going down, bank holidays, rush hour etc. Even with this change of policy.
 

Statto

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The other thing are the no shows, how do you end up freeing the seats then, the amount of times i've been on trains were seats have been reserved but left vacant, the awkward thing with Virgin, especially as you don't know if the passenger has gone to the toilet, or the on board shop, as i've mentioned this was the situation last Friday, caught the VT Liverpool service from Rugby, plenty of seats reserved from Harrow & Wealdstone[because of the Euston blockade] for beyond Rugby, that were unoccupied but didn't know whether the passengers had gone to the toilet or on board shop, so ended up walking further down the train, to a coach which had unreserved seats.
 

gazzaa2

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The other thing are the no shows, how do you end up freeing the seats then, the amount of times i've been on trains were seats have been reserved but left vacant, the awkward thing with Virgin, especially as you don't know if the passenger has gone to the toilet, or the on board shop, as i've mentioned this was the situation last Friday, caught the VT Liverpool service from Rugby, plenty of seats reserved from Harrow & Wealdstone[because of the Euston blockade] for beyond Rugby, that were unoccupied but didn't know whether the passengers had gone to the toilet or on board shop, so ended up walking further down the train, to a coach which had unreserved seats.

I remember getting on a VT at Euston and every seat was reserved. I prepared to stand the whole way but when it left Euston there was empty carriages. They'd been block booked by a union I think for a strike and went unused.
 

3rd rail land

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The other thing are the no shows, how do you end up freeing the seats then, the amount of times i've been on trains were seats have been reserved but left vacant, the awkward thing with Virgin, especially as you don't know if the passenger has gone to the toilet, or the on board shop, as i've mentioned this was the situation last Friday, caught the VT Liverpool service from Rugby, plenty of seats reserved from Harrow & Wealdstone[because of the Euston blockade] for beyond Rugby, that were unoccupied but didn't know whether the passengers had gone to the toilet or on board shop, so ended up walking further down the train, to a coach which had unreserved seats.
I'd probably take my chances on an unoccupied reserved seat. If the person with the seat reservation is in fact on board and returns to the seat I'll vacate and head for the unreserved coach.
 

philjo

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The recent trend with having 2 units coupled together so you cannot walk down the train doesn't help.
I was on a 10 coach GWR service formed of 2 x 800s on Tuesday. Several passengers boarded at Cardiff with reservations but their reserved seat was in the other unit. Also, bizarrely coach A was in the middle of the train ! There was no way of knowing when I was on the platform at Port Talbot which order the carriages were in. In this case I didn't have a reservation so it wasn't a problem for me.
Trains in Europe have the train formations and coach order available online and often a specific part of the platform so at least you know if you will be at the front or rear of the train etc. you are then waiting in the right part of the platform before the train arrives which helps to speed boarding.
 

3rd rail land

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The recent trend with having 2 units coupled together so you cannot walk down the train doesn't help.
I was on a 10 coach GWR service formed of 2 x 800s on Tuesday. Several passengers boarded at Cardiff with reservations but their reserved seat was in the other unit. Also, bizarrely coach A was in the middle of the train ! There was no way of knowing when I was on the platform at Port Talbot which order the carriages were in. In this case I didn't have a reservation so it wasn't a problem for me.
Trains in Europe have the train formations and coach order available online and often a specific part of the platform so at least you know if you will be at the front or rear of the train etc. you are then waiting in the right part of the platform before the train arrives which helps to speed boarding.
When a train is at a station for a reasonable length of time you can walk along the platform until you get to the coach with your reserved seat in it. However if a train is at a station for just a couple of minutes and you are unsure of the order of coaches then you get on nearest coach and hope to walk to the correct coach If it is 32 trains joined up and you end up i the wring u it I guess you have to stand f there are no available seats in the part of train you end up in.

If I were in that situation then I would be pretty irritated. You can't expect everyone to know exactly where their coach is on a train. If I reserve a seat I feel I am paying for the right not to have to stand and have 100% certainty I will get a seat on that journey.
 

Bletchleyite

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If I were in that situation then I would be pretty irritated. You can't expect everyone to know exactly where their coach is on a train.

You can if you provide proper, accurate information at the station, as SNCF and DB do.

Indeed, the split train with no access between the two halves was the precise reason for BR doing compulsory reservations on APT!
 

Roast Veg

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I'd rather stand than travel backwards owing to chronic motion sickness, and do so regularly even on journeys of >1h30. Even the best seat reservation systems have fallen down when a set comes in the wrong way around - either this needs to be limited to HS2 with rotating seats or I'm going to upset a few train managers if it goes ahead.
 

Ianno87

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The recent trend with having 2 units coupled together so you cannot walk down the train doesn't help.
I was on a 10 coach GWR service formed of 2 x 800s on Tuesday. Several passengers boarded at Cardiff with reservations but their reserved seat was in the other unit. Also, bizarrely coach A was in the middle of the train ! There was no way of knowing when I was on the platform at Port Talbot which order the carriages were in. In this case I didn't have a reservation so it wasn't a problem for me.
Trains in Europe have the train formations and coach order available online and often a specific part of the platform so at least you know if you will be at the front or rear of the train etc. you are then waiting in the right part of the platform before the train arrives which helps to speed boarding.

Boarding a 2 x 802 at St Erth the other week was similarly fun; pure guesswork as to the order of the carriage letters on arrival, with added fun of the last 3 carriages hanging off the short platform (plus for us 2 x children, prams, and luggage too!)

French-style 'Composition des Trains' screens, plus symmetrical long distance rolling stock (so it matters not which way around the set is) with reversible lettering would be useful to make this work!
 

Ianno87

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Walking to the station after work running late due to a meeting which ran over, arriving at around 17:30.

"We are sorry but there are no more trains available to your destination station this evening which has available seats"

or

"The next available service which has a seat available is the 20:36"

This is much more likely to be the reality.

Indeed. The practical use-case is you'd be forced to book onto the latest train you are likely to need, then see if you can move it earlier on getting to the station - if not, you're going to have to kill some time. Just like flights.

Perhaps keep at certain quota of seats per train deliberately unreservable until 10/20/30 minutes before departure. How do TGVs cope with this?
 

gazzaa2

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One of the great benefits of our antiquated railway system in Britain is the flexibility to just get on and go.

1) No "composter" boxes to stamp your ticket or forget...
2) No "train complet" full! - can't get that one it's full! (but you walk past piles of empty seats at Euston, who didn't turn up or are travelling from "Stockport to Manchester" but NO you still can't get on)...
3) No mandatory you *MUST* sit there reservations with eleven screaming vomiting babies on the table infront of you and someone's pet dog using your leg as a lamp post, and the chap in the seat behind keeps stroking you hair...

AARGH! No. Not here. Virgin can take these ideas and try inflict them on our American cousins instead.

2zewdd.jpg


As usual, this was written by a bunch of people who spend little time on trains, and when they do, it's in mostly empty first class. In their mind, the Vol-au-vents being served at 63 degrees takes priority over the other 7 coaches of cattle class.

That's the other thing. I like the flexibility to get an open return, but I also like to sit where I want if available. People can be extremely annoying and why put up with a screaming kid for 5 hours, loud music or a loud conversation when you can just go to the next carriage? That's the advantages of train over plane.
 

gazzaa2

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I'd rather stand than travel backwards owing to chronic motion sickness, and do so regularly even on journeys of >1h30. Even the best seat reservation systems have fallen down when a set comes in the wrong way around - either this needs to be limited to HS2 with rotating seats or I'm going to upset a few train managers if it goes ahead.

I'm the same. I wont sit backwards beyond a very short commute and will stand if theres no forward facing seat.
 

ricoblade

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This is not a new idea. We (IT company) had a meeting with (I think) GNER in the late 90s/early 2000s about how this might be implemented as it was their "vision", certainly between Edinburgh and London.
 

Jonny

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Also, there is potential for mandatory reservation systems to be mis-used; the so-called 'social credit' system in China has been used to deny ticket sales (one presumes, at any price) and is a target for such abuse by government actors. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System for links to articles).
 

Taunton

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If the reservation system spread people pleasantly about the coach, rather than stuffing them all in simplistically from seat 1 upwards as the bookings come in, placing people facing backwards against non-windows and squashed against another passenger, while the other end of the coach is empty, that would help.

But the greatest issue I notice is that with traditional reservation cards, when trains leave the London terminus, 50% of the seats carded as reserved from there are not sat in. With busier services you can't tell, because those arriving shortly before departure without reservations (that's me, with an Anytime costing 5 times an Advance with a reservation) will just sit in the acres of empty but reserved seats, unlikely to be troubled by that time. However will that be handled; services going out with plenty of empy actual seats, but passengers turned away?
 

CaptainHaddock

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Also, there is potential for mandatory reservation systems to be mis-used; the so-called 'social credit' system in China has been used to deny ticket sales (one presumes, at any price) and is a target for such abuse by government actors. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System for links to articles).



If Virgin's proposal is anything like Cross Country's Ten Minute Reservations, it'll be misused by people making reservations on several different trains so they still have flexibility. Thus you'll have trains showing up as fully booked when there'll still be many free seats.
 
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