ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Class83 · 27 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
They've already increased from 10 to 13 Classic sets. I'm not sure whether they plan any further increase.

I can't recall how many HST diagrams there are supposed to be from May.

Given the plan is to have 27 HST sets, I'm assuming 23-24 diagrams need covered. So 13 plus 4 is 17 (post below suggests 15 assorted HSTs), there are still somewhere between 6-9 158/170s being used on these routes which are needed elsewhere. The 2 loco hauled sets free up 4 units at rush hour, but can they get an exemption past December?

hexagon789 said:
I still haven't experienced once, refurbished or otherwise, but I look forward to the increased number of sets and diagrams, and I'm sure passengers enthusiast and non-enthusiast alike will be pleased with the increase.

The post suggests that instead of increasing the diagrams during the currency of the timetable, that instead Classic sets will be swapped out for refurbished sets when available.

Therefore, there will be at least 15 refurbished sets before December out of the 26.

That's a very glass half full way to read it, I'm more inclined to believe that it means no more than 15 sets refurbished sets expected by the December timetable change.

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gingertom · 27 Apr 2019

Class83 said:
I'm more inclined to believe that it means no more than 15 sets refurbished sets expected by the December timetable change.

at present rate of delivery, and allowing for Kilmarnock to get up to speed, even 15 refurb sets by the end of the year sounds optimistic.

Highland37 · 27 Apr 2019

I reckon 5-9 sets will be delivered by the end of the year. Maybe less. The facts demonstrate that the whole programme is very delayed and subject to unexpected further delays with passengers ultimately being the losers.

Killingworth · 27 Apr 2019

gingertom said:
at present rate of delivery, and allowing for Kilmarnock to get up to speed, even 15 refurb sets by the end of the year sounds optimistic.

The May issue of Modern Railways has an interesting article, page 46, "We won't get fooled again" about refurbishing old trains and HSTs are strongly featured. Clearly Wabtec have taken on more than they can chew. Lack of staff thanks to competitive work opportunities nearby, but corrosion in HST coaches must be a nightmare. It takes a lot more time than expected, and must be costing a lot more too, but it can be done.

Presumably (but this being the railway possibly not) all coaches were surveyed to ensure only the soundest are being refurbished. That said, until the unit has been stripped the precise location of corrosion damage is very hard to spot. As a former owner of 1960/70s Austin-Rover cars I can vouch for the amount of welding and fibre glass needed to patch up cars as little as 3 years old - I still have some of the kit used at the back of the garage! HSTs date back to that era.

najaB · 27 Apr 2019

Highland37 said:
I reckon 5-9 sets will be delivered by the end of the year. Maybe less.

I'll throw my hat into the prognosticating ring - I'll say a low of 12 and a high of 16 sets will be ready to be delivered by December 31st.

47271 · 27 Apr 2019

Not impressed with the way that they're dealing with the lack of seat reservations when HSTs don't turn up. To be clear, this isn't a complaint about HSTs themselves, it's yet another complaint about the shambolic nature of their introduction.

I was on the 1739 Edinburgh-Inverness last night and had to explain to three separate groups of people, two of them foreign tourists and one with young children, why their reserved seats weren't in Coach C on that train and that they were probably going to have to stand for the next half hour at least. This is only going to get worse as the holiday season builds up, and the types of passenger most affected are the ones least likely to understand why it's happening.

There's never any effort made with announcements or any other communication on board when this happens - it's like everyone's given up trying. They claim that they're creating a proper inter city service but aren't bothering with any of the detail in the implementation phase, it's not great.

hexagon789 · 27 Apr 2019

Class83 said:
Given the plan is to have 27 HST sets, I'm assuming 23-24 diagrams need covered. So 13 plus 4 is 17 (post below suggests 15 assorted HSTs), there are still somewhere between 6-9 158/170s being used on these routes which are needed elsewhere. The 2 loco hauled sets free up 4 units at rush hour, but can they get an exemption past December?

Who knows, rumours abound that EMT will get an exemption first its HSTs, but Mk2e coaches are a different kettle of fish. At least the HSTs have disabled toilets.

Class83 said:
That's a very glass half full way to read it, I'm more inclined to believe that it means no more than 15 sets refurbished sets expected by the December timetable change.

Well I'd rather be optimistic about it, but I appreciate that a low of 15 sets by December is more likely than a full 26.

BRX · 27 Apr 2019

That was exactly my experience last time I travelled on a substituted set. I had to explain to some confused (elderly) passengers because there was no info offered by staff or announcements.

Killingworth · 27 Apr 2019

hexagon789 said:
Who knows, rumours abound that EMT will get an exemption first its HSTs, but Mk2e coaches are a different kettle of fish. At least the HSTs have disabled toilets.

EMT will get a limited period of dispensations to continue running non-compliant stock, basically being as near compliant as possible, barring the doors. They couldn't run a realistic service any other way. It's very similar in Scotland so I can't see all heritage HSTs gone by the end of 2020.

A good idea to recycle the old units, just a major miscalculation of how it was to be done in the time available and at the cost originally envisaged. Which leaves us where we are now in Scotland, soon may be in the East Midlands, and a little bit on Cross Country too.

kidman123 · 27 Apr 2019

I might go up to Inverness on Monday time of train is 09.19 from markinch does any know what type of stock it's going to be c170 or a HST classic or refurb

najaB · 27 Apr 2019

Balfarg1982 said:
I might go up to Inverness on Monday time of train is 09.19 from markinch does any know what type of stock it's going to be c170 or a HST classic or refurb

While it doesn't mean anything definite, it's timed for a HST so there's at least the chance that it will be one: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G81324/2019/04/29/advanced

jingsmonty · 27 Apr 2019

najaB said:
While it doesn't mean anything definite, it's timed for a HST so there's at least the chance that it will be one: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G81324/2019/04/29/advanced

It definetly won't be a refurbished set - it's an Inverness job North of Perth (0950) & very few of us have been trained on the refurbs...it's booked for a Classic. In fact, think I'm on that one on Tues!

Clansman · 27 Apr 2019

Balfarg1982 said:
I might go up to Inverness on Monday time of train is 09.19 from markinch does any know what type of stock it's going to be c170 or a HST classic or refurb

Timed a HST but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

ld0595 · 27 Apr 2019

Balfarg1982 said:
I might go up to Inverness on Monday time of train is 09.19 from markinch does any know what type of stock it's going to be c170 or a HST classic or refurb

Was a HST for me on Thursday but as others have said, dont get your hopes up. Staff training seems to be progressing well so the likelihood of a HST is higher compared to a month or so ago.

SC318250 · 27 Apr 2019

With the 4th being delivered during the coming week, 5-7 are suppose to not be far behind, so wouldnt be suprised to see these by end June/July.
Not sure how many other sets are in Wabtec at present?

jingsmonty · 27 Apr 2019

SC318250 said:
With the 4th being delivered during the coming week, 5-7 are suppose to not be far behind, so wouldnt be suprised to see these by end June/July.
Not sure how many other sets are in Wabtec at present?

I believe sets 8+9 are in Doncaster as well. Plus whatever's been allocated to Kilmarnock?

hexagon789 · 27 Apr 2019

Killingworth said:
EMT will get a limited period of dispensations to continue running non-compliant stock, basically being as near compliant as possible, barring the doors. They couldn't run a realistic service any other way. It's very similar in Scotland so I can't see all heritage HSTs gone by the end of 2020.

A good idea to recycle the old units, just a major miscalculation of how it was to be done in the time available and at the cost originally envisaged. Which leaves us where we are now in Scotland, soon may be in the East Midlands, and a little bit on Cross Country too.

True, I would imagine ScotRail will need such dispensations as well.

It was a very worthwhile idea, but they definitely didn't allow enough time for the work, though I don't think that was entirely foreseeable in some respects.

Goldromans · 27 Apr 2019

Does anyone know if the infrastructure work to accommodate the 5-coach sets has been completed? I would hope so, considering they were all meant to be in service by now. If so, does this mean we could see some of the classic sets being extended to 5 coaches?

47271 · 27 Apr 2019

Goldromans said:
Does anyone know if the infrastructure work to accommodate the 5-coach sets has been completed? I would hope so, considering they were all meant to be in service by now. If so, does this mean we could see some of the classic sets being extended to 5 coaches?

We could do with it on some services - the 1741 Queen Street-Aberdeen is booked at an HST now, but used to go as far as Perth as five coaches 170+158. I know that this isn't the long term plan, but for now it's a very popular fast commuter run for Dunblane in particular. It's been very snug as a four coach HST recently, not least because of all the wasted First Class space.

FQTV · 27 Apr 2019

47271 said:
Not impressed with the way that they're dealing with the lack of seat reservations when HSTs don't turn up. To be clear, this isn't a complaint about HSTs themselves, it's yet another complaint about the shambolic nature of their introduction.

I was on the 1739 Edinburgh-Inverness last night and had to explain to three separate groups of people, two of them foreign tourists and one with young children, why their reserved seats weren't in Coach C on that train and that they were probably going to have to stand for the next half hour at least. This is only going to get worse as the holiday season builds up, and the types of passenger most affected are the ones least likely to understand why it's happening.

There's never any effort made with announcements or any other communication on board when this happens - it's like everyone's given up trying. They claim that they're creating a proper inter city service but aren't bothering with any of the detail in the implementation phase, it's not great.

Quite.

My experience last Sunday was, quite frankly, a shambles and reflected poorly on the company but also, sadly, the onboard staff - who I would usually defend to the end.

317 forever · 27 Apr 2019

FtoE said:
Just noticed two foreign women miss their stop because they didn’t know how to open the doors on the Classic.
As the tourist season gets into full swing I can see this becoming a bit of an issue.

I wonder whether upon refurbishment these 125s will receive sliding doors like the remaining 4-car 125s with GWR?

Stoney1979 · 27 Apr 2019

FQTV said:
Quite.

My experience last Sunday was, quite frankly, a shambles and reflected poorly on the company but also, sadly, the onboard staff - who I would usually defend to the end.

Similar experience on the HML last week, confrontations happening all over the place due to arguments about seat reservations. People seem to get very, very territorial about it! Then, even when it's all calmed down and sorted out, there's still a lingering hostility until one party departs the train.

With the advanced RTT platform info available to railway "geeks" like me (us?) it's very useful to identify the platform and get through the barriers early at Waverly to get a seat. Although I ended up standing from Perth to Pitlochry, giving seat to more in need of it than me. Without more HSTs/capacity, this summer is going to very, very unpleasant for all.

hexagon789 · 27 Apr 2019

317 forever said:
I wonder whether upon refurbishment these 125s will receive sliding doors like the remaining 4-car 125s with GWR?

If they are going off-lease I doubt it.

433N · 28 Apr 2019

Killingworth said:
The May issue of Modern Railways has an interesting article, page 46, "We won't get fooled again" about refurbishing old trains and HSTs are strongly featured. Clearly Wabtec have taken on more than they can chew. Lack of staff thanks to competitive work opportunities nearby, but corrosion in HST coaches must be a nightmare. It takes a lot more time than expected, and must be costing a lot more too, but it can be done.

Presumably (but this being the railway possibly not) all coaches were surveyed to ensure only the soundest are being refurbished. That said, until the unit has been stripped the precise location of corrosion damage is very hard to spot. As a former owner of 1960/70s Austin-Rover cars I can vouch for the amount of welding and fibre glass needed to patch up cars as little as 3 years old - I still have some of the kit used at the back of the garage! HSTs date back to that era.

This sort of encapsulates the whole issue for me. There appears more work than envisaged. So what was that 'envisagement' based on. Was it proper diagnostic ultrasound investigation (or whatever ; not an expert) of each carriage looking for stress, metal fatigue and corrosion, or did someone just kick the tyres of one and say 'Yeah, that's fine'. I mean, the latter approach may work for an enthusiast doing Austin-Rover cars (although why am I not surprised by remedial work required after 3 years) but you might have thought that for a multi-million pound project, you'd like a better idea of what you're looking at, for quotation purposes if nothing else.

Or was a proper assessment done which missed all of these issues, for some reason.

jingsmonty · 28 Apr 2019

317 forever said:
I wonder whether upon refurbishment these 125s will receive sliding doors like the remaining 4-car 125s with GWR?

Yes they will - that's part of the refurbishment programme, along with (long overdue) CET tanks. Same spec as the GWR/XC sets. The Scotrail sets will have a TFB coach (First/Buffet), which I don't think the GWR 'castle' sets will have?

jingsmonty · 28 Apr 2019

47271 said:
Not impressed with the way that they're dealing with the lack of seat reservations when HSTs don't turn up. To be clear, this isn't a complaint about HSTs themselves, it's yet another complaint about the shambolic nature of their introduction.

I was on the 1739 Edinburgh-Inverness last night and had to explain to three separate groups of people, two of them foreign tourists and one with young children, why their reserved seats weren't in Coach C on that train and that they were probably going to have to stand for the next half hour at least. This is only going to get worse as the holiday season builds up, and the types of passenger most affected are the ones least likely to understand why it's happening.

There's never any effort made with announcements or any other communication on board when this happens - it's like everyone's given up trying. They claim that they're creating a proper inter city service but aren't bothering with any of the detail in the implementation phase, it's not great.

It's no use at all, is it? It must be so disheartening for the on train staff who have to deal with this. If I was a passenger, I'd be furious if I turned up for a 4 coach train with a reserved seat, only to discover that there's 1 less (potentially 2) coaches & no seat reservations. It's just not good enough at all, just embarrasing - hardly likely to encourage people to stay with train travel after an experience like that!

My only hope is that the 3 extra Classic sets will enter service & the availability of Train Crew/sets will improve. I do know that a lot of the train crew training has been suspended after the May timetable change - this will free up sets that have been used on the training trains.

43096 · 28 Apr 2019

jingsmonty said:
It's no use at all, is it? It must be so disheartening for the on train staff who have to deal with this. If I was a passenger, I'd be furious if I turned up for a 4 coach train with a reserved seat, only to discover that there's 1 less (potentially 2) coaches & no seat reservations. It's just not good enough at all, just embarrasing - hardly likely to encourage people to stay with train travel after an experience like that!

My only hope is that the 3 extra Classic sets will enter service & the availability of Train Crew/sets will improve. I do know that a lot of the train crew training has been suspended after the May timetable change - this will free up sets that have been used on the training trains.

It’s interesting that most of the ire has been directed at Wabtec (on here at least), but ScotRail have been totally incompetent. The fact that even now training is still going on, that the stabling facilities were late (if the trains had been delivered on time, there would have been problems) and the lack of engineering readiness (why was ATP left on for so long?) says just how badly planned and delivered it has been by Abellio.

DuncanS · 28 Apr 2019

47271 said:
There's never any effort made with announcements or any other communication on board when this happens - it's like everyone's given up trying. They claim that they're creating a proper inter city service but aren't bothering with any of the detail in the implementation phase, it's not great.

When it happened to me last week, we had on board announcements after every stop and you could also see a message on the boards at stations to say that there were no reservations on the train.

Highlandspring · 28 Apr 2019

jingsmonty said:
My only hope is that the 3 extra Classic sets will enter service

At least one has already entered service.

47271 · 28 Apr 2019

DuncanS said:
When it happened to me last week, we had on board announcements after every stop and you could also see a message on the boards at stations to say that there were no reservations on the train.

Great, so somebody somewhere in Scotrail needs to make sure that the processes used for your train get followed for all substitutions. I'm not holding out too much hope.

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