Tottenham Hotspur Matchday timetable and overcrowding

AlanFry1 · 9 Apr 2019

Hi all,

First post on the forum, very happy to join.

I commute from Bush Hill Park into Liverpool Street 6 times a week, on the route of the new spurs stadium.

I am completely gobsmacked however by the overcrowding and timetable contingency plan for the new spurs stadium.

Peak Hertfords are skipping WHL when during the old ground they stopped, easing congestion for the spurs games, during this saturdays fixture against Huddersfield, London Overground have decided not to run at all for a nine hour period of the day, the post-match timetable is only of an extra train per hour to enfield, and an extra service to London, at Northumberland Park, the service is also much reduced to prior years.

On Twitter this evening, there are reports of injuries to customers using the line, with regular commuters caught up amongst the chaos.

What is being done to help ease problems at the new ground, as this is very worrying for all who live in this part of London and must commute through! A new station building isn't going to help much at both WHL and Northumberland Park.

RailUK Forums

yorkie · 9 Apr 2019

I don't really have the answers but I am surprised more trains aren't calling at Northumberland Park.

Edit: there is coming back after the game though; considerably more than from WHL. The number of trains from WHL after the game looks woefully inadequate.

THarris1303 said:
I am completely gobsmacked however by the overcrowding and timetable contingency plan for the new spurs stadium.

I'm not. To be honest, I'd be gobsmacked if a proper adequate plan was in place.

AlanFry1 · 9 Apr 2019

yorkie said:
I don't really have the answers but I am surprised more trains aren't calling at Northumberland Park.

Edit: there is coming back after the game though; considerably more than from WHL. The number of trains from WHL after the game looks woefully inadequate.

I'm not. To be honest, I'd be gobsmacked if a proper adequate plan was in place.

At one point tonight, there is a 17m wait at WHL for a train into London! More than the current gap off peak! I'm not sure why the service can't be ramped up considering after game peak has well and truly ended!

CyrusWuff · 9 Apr 2019

There are ongoing signalling problems between Stratford and Lea Bridge affecting access to Orient Way Carriage Sidings, and earlier problems at Stansted and between Tottenham Hale and Hackney Downs. These have combined to decimate performance on the West Anglia lines, with both Greater Anglia and London Overground reporting sub-10% punctuality for a while.

Had everything been going to plan, there would have been 13 Northbound and 18 Southbound services calling at Northumberland Park between 1700 and 2000, 35 Northbound and 32 Southbound calls at Tottenham Hale, and trains every 7-8 minutes at White Hart Lane (with some as close together as every 4-5 minutes), with 17 calls in each direction between 1700 and 2000. The key constraint there being capacity between Liverpool Street and Hackney Downs, given trains for the Southbury Lines have to use Platforms 3 and 4 at the latter.

The transport plan for the new stadium also includes coach services from 31 towns and cities across the Home Counties and FREE shuttle buses from Alexandra Palace and Wood Green stations for general admission, and from Tottenham Hale for "Premium" guests.

Post-match, assuming it doesn't run into Extra Time, you should have had the following between 2145 and the end of the day:

White Hart Lane : 13 Northbound (inc. additional White Hart Lane - Enfield Town shuttles at 2203 and 2244) and 12 Southbound (additionals at 2208 to Hackney Downs calling all stations except Bruce Grove; and 2240 and 2310 to Liverpool Street, calling at Seven Sisters only)
Northumberland Park : 15 Northbound and 19 Southbound
Tottenham Hale : 18 Northbound and 21 Southbound

And, of course, you've got the Victoria Line at Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale with up to 36 trains per hour in each direction before the match, and around 28tph afterwards.

AlanFry1 · 9 Apr 2019

CyrusWuff said:
There are ongoing signalling problems between Stratford and Lea Bridge affecting access to Orient Way Carriage Sidings, and earlier problems at Stansted and between Tottenham Hale and Hackney Downs. These have combined to decimate performance on the West Anglia lines, with both Greater Anglia and London Overground reporting sub-10% punctuality for a while.

Had everything been going to plan, there would have been 13 Northbound and 18 Southbound services calling at Northumberland Park between 1700 and 2000, 35 Northbound and 32 Southbound calls at Tottenham Hale, and trains every 7-8 minutes at White Hart Lane (with some as close together as every 4-5 minutes), with 17 calls in each direction between 1700 and 2000. The key constraint there being capacity between Liverpool Street and Hackney Downs, given trains for the Southbury Lines have to use Platforms 3 and 4 at the latter.

The transport plan for the new stadium also includes coach services from 31 towns and cities across the Home Counties and FREE shuttle buses from Alexandra Palace and Wood Green stations for general admission, and from Tottenham Hale for "Premium" guests.

Incorrect about the White Hart Lane every 7-8 min bit! Only 6tph, not spaced out either, with 15 min gaps before delays to the services on a normal day as well as match day, as for some reason GA do not stop the Hertfords even though they did used to.

AlanFry1 · 9 Apr 2019

Interesting to have a look at how transport is fairing now!

BJames · 9 Apr 2019

I also live in the Bush Hill Park area, and I've been having a look into this this evening.

The services on Saturday have now been correctly entered into Real Time Trains. Please see this link: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BHK/2019/04/13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The timetable has been completely altered between 10:30 and 17:30, with an additional 2 trains per hour calling all stations Enfield Town to Seven Sisters, then Hackney Downs, Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street. This will help with some of the load, as well as the standard 2tph service from Cheshunt - but I do agree that 6tph is still not enough - only every 10 minutes for a matchday, which could lead to significant crowds.

There are extra services returning, but it looks like on Saturday they won't be shuttling between White Hart Lane and Enfield Town - these starters are always good to make sure that the regular commuters and football fans were both able to board their trains.

The service on Matchdays used to be a lot better before the new stadium. During the game last week, the queuing system at Seven Sisters was horrendous during the pre-match time, as it was rush hour and commuters and fans were all crammed onto the tiny Seven Sisters platforms.

I can't answer in regards to Northumberland Park, but all I know about is the new redevelopment of White Hart Lane station. Building a new station building won't compensate for a lack of trains, but at the same time it may help to ensure fans are better regulated through the station and hopefully it might be managed a little better. Seven Sisters though is in need of a capacity boost and wider platforms...

On another note, does anyone know why 5U89 at 14:06 terminates at Bush Hill Park then starts in passenger service at 14:07 as 2U89? I have never heard of or seen this happen before? This also seems to happen at 18:01 with 5U99.

AlanFry1 · 10 Apr 2019

I've not seen anything EVER about trains starting and terminating at Bush Hill Park? Not sure why they can't just go one stop more to Enfield?! VERY interesting. Also, Saturdays game timetable is odd, as there are not many FAST services - why do Cambridge Heath, Stamford Hill ETC require 6tph? I would divert all chingfords to stop at the bethnal green-london field stations during the match?

306024 · 10 Apr 2019

I recall from a distant memory there was a restriction that you can’t depart a DOO passenger train from platform 3 at Enfield Town. Presumably this still applies as both these ECS trains do indeed depart from platform 3.

AlanFry1 · 10 Apr 2019

306024 said:
I recall from a distant memory there was a restriction that you can’t depart a DOO passenger train from platform 3 at Enfield Town. Presumably this still applies as both these ECS trains do indeed depart from platform 3.

Sounds odd - why would that be the case?

westv · 10 Apr 2019

I'm just glad the Met line is free of them now weekday evenings when there's a match on.

Class 170101 · 10 Apr 2019

BJames said:
On another note, does anyone know why 5U89 at 14:06 terminates at Bush Hill Park then starts in passenger service at 14:07 as 2U89? I have never heard of or seen this happen before? This also seems to happen at 18:01 with 5U99.

306024 said:
I recall from a distant memory there was a restriction that you can’t depart a DOO passenger train from platform 3 at Enfield Town. Presumably this still applies as both these ECS trains do indeed depart from platform 3.

I think its four cars maximum off this platform at Enfield Town due to the DOO monitors. Of course once the Class 710s enter service I wouldn't have thought that is an issue.

AlanFry1 · 12 Apr 2019

There's now an article in the Evening Standard, Metro and Daily Mail about the matchday overcrowding. Apparently the new station may not open at WHL until the Winter...

BJames · 12 Apr 2019

Gosh, having read that article it seems like a bad experience at the moment.

The station revamp will help but again we really need more than just two extra trains per hour in order to alleviate crowding from such a large capacity increase to the stadium.

The station redevelopment is not anywhere near ready. It may help to reduce severe overcrowding when it it ready, but there needs to be a better system in place in the meantime. Faster trains are really required to get people out of WHL as quickly as possible. The boost to 8-car is good but the amount of people travelling is huge. It's all very well suggesting that people use Northumberland Park (equally as bad but hopefully some more plans in place this time) or Tottenham Hale (too far), but people are most likely to try and use the closest station they can, and that's White Hart Lane.

AlanFry1 · 13 Apr 2019

Any reports on the match day service today?

BJames · 14 Apr 2019

I didn't travel yesterday so I can't share with regards to the crowds at White Hart Lane itself. But from the Bush Hill Park end, it seemed to be a little better managed than during rush hour the other day. A 4tph service was run fairly consistently throughout the day, and it seemed to alleviate crowds at Bush Hill Park, with a large number clearly parking on the surrounding streets and opting for the train. A few units from RTT seemed to lose a bit of time at White Hart Lane on their way into Enfield, and a lot came in quite late towards Liverpool Street. I wasn't around to observe the return from the match, when it's usually a lot busier.

I observed the Bush Hill Park starter at 18:02 as well. It was advertised on the departures board in the office but not on Platform 1, arriving at 18:03 and sitting for 2 minutes before departing at 18:05. It arrived very slowly into the platform. Only about 6 passengers boarded. I was actually wondering whether this additional service, just 7 minutes after the usual 17:55, was really worth it - it was about as busy as I'd expected it to be, and no doubt with the match finishing at 14:15 there wouldn't be the same level of overwhelming crowds that needed an empty train.

AlanFry1 · 14 Apr 2019

It didn't seem to get as bad a reaction on social media?

AlanFry1 · 26 Apr 2019

RTT not showing any trains tomorrow before during and after the match! Wowzers.

BJames · 27 Apr 2019

This probably just wasn't updated that far in advance - they're using the same timetable they did last time it was a Saturday match, with 4tph from Enfield Town - Liverpool Street except the 14:07 and 18:02 which are Bush Hill Park - Liverpool Street.

AlanFry1 · 27 Apr 2019

Tuesday travelling will make interesting going...

philthetube · 28 Apr 2019

westv said:
I'm just glad the Met line is free of them now weekday evenings when there's a match on.

Did I hear somewhere that Chelsea are going to have a turn?

jopsuk · 28 Apr 2019

just need to wait another ~20 years or so and there will be CrossRail 2 delivering 16-20 trains per hour to Northumberland Park and a 4tph successor to the STAR service

david_g · 28 Apr 2019

THarris1303 said:
Any reports on the match day service today?

Worked fine for me. Out from Liverpool Street to White Hart Lane, took ages to clear the platform as we were at the rear of the train, a little local knowledge would have helped there

Back from Northumberland Park (we were in the away section) the queuing system worked well: less than five minutes outside the station & well marshalled/signed, then a couple of minutes waiting on the platform and away. Only downside was the inordinately long walk up the ramps to the footbridge, felt like we could have walked to Liverpool Street.

And the result of course :frown:

BJames · 10 Aug 2019

Today's not looking so good for this line. A tree appears to have fallen down at Southbury and there's an obstruction on the line at St James Street as well according to TfL, so no services at all for the time being.

An extra 2tph were scheduled to run from Enfield to Liverpool Street both before and after the match, they may still run after the match but with a 17:30 kick off, I'm not too sure that the service will be fully reinstated before the match starts - hopefully there can be a reasonable service for the return.

Geswedey · 11 Aug 2019

All ok after the match

Howardh · 11 Aug 2019

Noting that whilst the traditional times for kick-off are 3pm, and can be timetabled accordingly, games are shifted for TV with about 6 weeks notice.

Q - do the TOC's ever specifically organise a timetable (and length of trains) around a football club (with the exception of, say, Man United who have their own station and trains timetabled for it) and, if so, do they alter times when Saturday games are TV-shifted? How much notice would they require to do that?

Local to me Bolton Wanderer's staduim which used to regularly attract 20k+ is next door to a station but I have never seen any specific timetabling for games; just what appears to be the normal schedule you would expect for a Saturday.

JamesT · 11 Aug 2019

Howardh said:
Noting that whilst the traditional times for kick-off are 3pm, and can be timetabled accordingly, games are shifted for TV with about 6 weeks notice.

Q - do the TOC's ever specifically organise a timetable (and length of trains) around a football club (with the exception of, say, Man United who have their own station and trains timetabled for it) and, if so, do they alter times when Saturday games are TV-shifted? How much notice would they require to do that?

Local to me Bolton Wanderer's staduim which used to regularly attract 20k+ is next door to a station but I have never seen any specific timetabling for games; just what appears to be the normal schedule you would expect for a Saturday.

The station at Old Trafford hasn't been used for some time now. Unfortunately it was inadequate to handle the crowds so was closed on health and safety grounds.

Howardh · 11 Aug 2019

JamesT said:
The station at Old Trafford hasn't been used for some time now. Unfortunately it was inadequate to handle the crowds so was closed on health and safety grounds.

Didn't know that. In 2017 Geoff Marshall made a special journey so as to tick it off in the "All The Stations" series during a match-day; so it was open then! But it clearly is better to filter out 10000's of fans rather than have them squeezed into one area, and there are Metrolink options I suppose.
But do TOC's look at football times and schedule appropritely? As for Spurs, London is so well connected by bus, tube and train I wouldn't think it was particularly necessary to alter timetables much, maybe Wembley on big games?

Geswedey · 11 Aug 2019

Howardh said:
Noting that whilst the traditional times for kick-off are 3pm, and can be timetabled accordingly, games are shifted for TV with about 6 weeks notice.

Q - do the TOC's ever specifically organise a timetable (and length of trains) around a football club (with the exception of, say, Man United who have their own station and trains timetabled for it) and, if so, do they alter times when Saturday games are TV-shifted? How much notice would they require to do that?

Local to me Bolton Wanderer's staduim which used to regularly attract 20k+ is next door to a station but I have never seen any specific timetabling for games; just what appears to be the normal schedule you would expect for a Saturday.

When Abellio ran the Enfield / Cheshunt service and the Spurs had a match that could involve extra time there were paths allocated and crew / unit diagrams issued for end of games specials that could be altered if the game went into extra time. eg. 5G02 departs ENF at 22:00 unless games goes to extra time when it will leave at 22:40.

306024 · 11 Aug 2019

Geswedey said:
When Abellio ran the Enfield / Cheshunt service and the Spurs had a match that could involve extra time there were paths allocated and crew / unit diagrams issued for end of games specials that could be altered if the game went into extra time. eg. 5G02 departs ENF at 22:00 unless games goes to extra time when it will leave at 22:40.

Penalties were by Control arrangement

Now with VAR it’s anyones guess when a game will finish, but yes drivers diagrams were such that they could cope with extra time and a bit more contingency too. Hopefully ARL continue this practice.

Tottenham Hotspur Matchday timetable and overcrowding

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