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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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phil beard

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I took this shot of 230004 yesterday (26/04) at Stewartby. Very impressively quiet but I cannot help thinking that their use should be strictly limited to quiet country lines and not metropolitan lines.

230004 26042019.jpg
 

Billy A

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Indeed. The original Pacer transmissions (did they use multi-speed boxes?) proved unreliable and were replaced by the same arrangement as the Sprinters.
Indeed they did, four speed bus-derived semi automatics as I understand.
 

pt_mad

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What are loadings like in the peaks on the Marston Vale line? Will the 230 be standing room at some points or does it not get that busy?
 

Billy A

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Yes, we are drifting O/T.......

Reverting to trains, I've always wondered why most of the 2nd generation DMUs had the 'orrible 2-speed Voiths, so much time & fuel wasted churning the torque-converter oil until they finally shift up in the 2nd direct gear ratio.
It seems that most of the newer units have a 6-speed 'box with the torque converter (or just a simple fluid coupling?) which must be more economical & probably prolonging the life of the engine?
The Voith unit doesn't have the clutches and brake bands of a conventional automatic box, so no friction materials to wear out. Also because it changes gear by pumping fluid about it always provides smooth "gearchanges".
 

hooverboy

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What are loadings like in the peaks on the Marston Vale line? Will the 230 be standing room at some points or does it not get that busy?
7am to 9am /4pm to 6pm monday-friday
7am to 9am/12pm to 1pm saturday is rammed,the rest of the time it's dead(bedford private schools do half day saturday),
 

evergreenadam

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What is the maximum frequency that could be accommodated on the Marston Vale line, it is mostly double track so would a half hourly service be feasible, subject to stock availability?

The line also passes housing estates on the south east of Milton Keynes between Bow Brickhill and Woburn Sands but there is no station there, seems a missed opportunity for extra revenue.
 

Bletchleyite

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What is the maximum frequency that could be accommodated on the Marston Vale line, it is mostly double track so would a half hourly service be feasible, subject to stock availability?

I would expect so - it's just not financially viable.

The line also passes housing estates on the south east of Milton Keynes between Bow Brickhill and Woburn Sands but there is no station there, seems a missed opportunity for extra revenue.

I do agree with that to an extent, but it'd have to run to MKC to be properly useful.
 

simple simon

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Once bedded in, maybe there will be slightly faster journey times, with this making an extension to Milton Keynes more feasible? It does seem to be a 'missed opportunity' that the trains do not go to Milton Keynes, although I suppose that in many ways this is because Milton Keynes is one of the new towns and therefore 'years ago' it did not exist.

I'm going to make two YouTube films of 230 004 - a general film with many views is now ready to view (see below) plus a film which includes a complete station to station ride which will be better for hearing the how various sounds change during the journey.

This first film includes a still image slideshow and many 'cutaway' views, some of which I think go into a greater detail than is usual.

During my day I encountered several types of weather - including torrential rain, just when I wanted to film the train. As you will see! On a happier note, LMS steam engine 6233 Duchess of Sutherland is seen passing by the D-Train at Bedford station.

Enjoy!

 
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JonathanH

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What is the maximum frequency that could be accommodated on the Marston Vale line, it is mostly double track so would a half hourly service be feasible, subject to stock availability?

Don't forget that there is a stretch of single line at both ends and also the need to get 700s into Jowett Sidings which obstructs the capacity at the Bedford end.
 

Ianno87

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What is the maximum frequency that could be accommodated on the Marston Vale line, it is mostly double track so would a half hourly service be feasible, subject to stock availability?

The line also passes housing estates on the south east of Milton Keynes between Bow Brickhill and Woburn Sands but there is no station there, seems a missed opportunity for extra revenue.

I would expect so - it's just not financially viable.



I do agree with that to an extent, but it'd have to run to MKC to be properly useful.

I remain convinced that the poor end to end journey time is a huge disincentive to end-to-end traffic using the line, particularly between Bedford and MK in the peak to avoid congestion on the A421; I'd be fascinated by how well-patronised a half-hourly skip-stop pattern service might be...
 

hooverboy

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Once bedded in, maybe there will be slightly faster journey times, with this making an extension to Milton Keynes more feasible? I


sadly,no.
any path on the WCML slows from bletchley to MK will require 90mph+ capable unit....230 just doesn't cut it in this regard and will cause too many blockages.

a selected stop 158 would be ideal.
 
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Ianno87

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sadly,no.
any path on the slows from bletchley to MK will require 90mph+ capable unit....230 just doesn't cut it in this regard and will cause too many blockages.

a selected stop 158 would be ideal.

Plus paths, if they were available, would be better allocated to valuable intermodal trains or 8/12 car Euston services.
 

hooverboy

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Plus paths, if they were available, would be better allocated to valuable intermodal trains or 8/12 car Euston services.
Already plenty of scope for improvement of LNWR services on WCML. they should be operating 8 car as a matter of course(or at the very least order an extra TSO car per set to make 5/10 car)......4 car 350's are always full to bursting...even off peak.

not a pleasant experience.
 

Bletchleyite

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I remain convinced that the poor end to end journey time is a huge disincentive to end-to-end traffic using the line, particularly between Bedford and MK in the peak to avoid congestion on the A421; I'd be fascinated by how well-patronised a half-hourly skip-stop pattern service might be...

I'm not convinced it would massively be so - the main problem is that other than the schoolkids most people just don't want to go to Bletchley, they want to go to MKC, and the connections are quite poor because (obviously) London has to be prioritised. Or more importantly (and the railway can never do this) to the shopping centre at the top of the hill, like the X5 does.

You'd also have to be careful what you skip - there are a fair few people who make intermediate journeys, primarily for work purposes. Ridgmont appears to be in the middle of nowhere but there's the minor issue of a certain warehouse...

Unfortunately, though, talking of MKC, you'd need an extra unit and crew to get there. I did try to work out a timetable a while back as I thought it could be done without, but it's somewhere between 5-10 minutes short.
 

Bletchleyite

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Already plenty of scope for improvement of LNWR services on WCML. they should be operating 8 car as a matter of course(or at the very least order an extra TSO car per set to make 5/10 car)......4 car 350's are always full to bursting...even off peak.

not a pleasant experience.

Yes, there is an issue with 4-car working and they do need to pack it in. I had hoped the new franchise would give us a fixed formation new fleet like Thameslink, who now can't, however much their bean counters might want them to.
 

K.o.R

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I was at Bletchley station on Saturday and was lucky to catch 230004 sitting in the platform waiting for the 12:01 departure. I didn't have time for a ride, and unfortunately when I returned later in the day the service was the single-car jobby. Shame.

The external doors are so slow. Surely they could improve the mechanism?

The internal doors are strange. That big box on them is rather wobbly and the catch on the door doesn't slide over it very well.

MTV8ovn0pjHBPA-jIpg0b2MELwxTq-C-L8frUSEHp20oIR3LA-t8QYZ3t9b6x5eFo8I-oaTlEvEpu8xU4DGCGwh2-z6olVumDM7RaUEXJCCpN1fU4Q6qVRMoNnlj2M7E6sNP6aReT-LVO2gcoUDuoR130SjbidDhXqVSKgQheu23-tBKYny2pfavE4RPwU-nxzrEmudV8SGcAVUdWnmJSMajChaG2r5hg_fsER_vJ3VXna91Za_tdQFoDLGezB-7yNuPFWZ0j-k7yKYHXO9fGfiofFYwmG2SEZ0N4dJ_KnQHHbBSlx9TJ2EMhbgKYigceCa-53vmmEeB-eHZyp_EwMdk5XQQuiymf5qvK48LAW9zlncMZ1QyMKrjGq0tAjjF3QbYkWkruK2iXmG-V7EZ-CpHMHuX3PYLt1iJTuQLAq_EMhMmdlVo_pwuv5tviWT4ue-bk-8-Be4VhzuLr4ldg8YZMipxks3XiWP7L_r6ZUTFJTzjaupDT9TY-0f4m4i6Aqz1P-6HfLPUJuAox-U_W_32TvsQaraG_uSXZPPCCdcJJnq34j-IfZuZyqqOgmRDZXN3zQKcBRWKMxM5SjSIUck7hGeVuKHBgq54xlTgABWLQCNBhtO-rnLhLd_WyOnpXevhdI3au1DUqPW6xSDmgwnHIZvysHXz=w1912-h1078-no


I'm pretty sure there was a Bletchleyite sitting in there, but I wasn't brave enough to make conversation.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm pretty sure there was a Bletchleyite sitting in there, but I wasn't brave enough to make conversation.

Nah, wasn't me, I wasn't on the Marston Vale on Saturday, I was gracing SWR and GWR (an HST, fortunately, so no seat whining) with my presence. Must have a doppelganger! :)

Re the doors they have been slowed down but are the original mechanism - they need speeding back up again!

The 230 is running on the Class 150 diagram i.e. the one shown as 2 cars on the timetable on the LNR site, should anyone be trying to track it down.

I'm really not sure what the point in that box on the internal door is. The doors have perfectly good manual handles (when they don't fall off), and no unit which had manual gangway doors has had them modified for PRM.
 

K.o.R

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Nah, wasn't me, I wasn't on the Marston Vale on Saturday, I was gracing SWR and GWR (an HST, fortunately, so no seat whining) with my presence. Must have a doppelganger! :)

Re the doors they have been slowed down but are the original mechanism - they need speeding back up again!

Perhaps you do; I was pretty sure it was you, down to the rectangular glasses.
 

Nym

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I was at Bletchley station on Saturday and was lucky to catch 230004 sitting in the platform waiting for the 12:01 departure. I didn't have time for a ride, and unfortunately when I returned later in the day the service was the single-car jobby. Shame.

The external doors are so slow. Surely they could improve the mechanism?

The internal doors are strange. That big box on them is rather wobbly and the catch on the door doesn't slide over it very well.

MTV8ovn0pjHBPA-jIpg0b2MELwxTq-C-L8frUSEHp20oIR3LA-t8QYZ3t9b6x5eFo8I-oaTlEvEpu8xU4DGCGwh2-z6olVumDM7RaUEXJCCpN1fU4Q6qVRMoNnlj2M7E6sNP6aReT-LVO2gcoUDuoR130SjbidDhXqVSKgQheu23-tBKYny2pfavE4RPwU-nxzrEmudV8SGcAVUdWnmJSMajChaG2r5hg_fsER_vJ3VXna91Za_tdQFoDLGezB-7yNuPFWZ0j-k7yKYHXO9fGfiofFYwmG2SEZ0N4dJ_KnQHHbBSlx9TJ2EMhbgKYigceCa-53vmmEeB-eHZyp_EwMdk5XQQuiymf5qvK48LAW9zlncMZ1QyMKrjGq0tAjjF3QbYkWkruK2iXmG-V7EZ-CpHMHuX3PYLt1iJTuQLAq_EMhMmdlVo_pwuv5tviWT4ue-bk-8-Be4VhzuLr4ldg8YZMipxks3XiWP7L_r6ZUTFJTzjaupDT9TY-0f4m4i6Aqz1P-6HfLPUJuAox-U_W_32TvsQaraG_uSXZPPCCdcJJnq34j-IfZuZyqqOgmRDZXN3zQKcBRWKMxM5SjSIUck7hGeVuKHBgq54xlTgABWLQCNBhtO-rnLhLd_WyOnpXevhdI3au1DUqPW6xSDmgwnHIZvysHXz=w1912-h1078-no


I'm pretty sure there was a Bletchleyite sitting in there, but I wasn't brave enough to make conversation.

They could have just kept the old door engines and door valves, although they're currently 52V on the D78 Stock, there'd be nothing stopping them going to Norgren (or IMI as they're now called) and getting the solenoids changed out and retaining the same shuttle vales, or getting the shuttle valve arrangement replaced but retaining the existing door engine and arm arrangement, they really where quite reliable on the D78s.

It also wouldn't be that hard to change out the circuitry (since they're totally re-wired anyway) as to force the doors constantly closed as is done on 1973TS with the same door arms but a different shuttle valve arrangement.

Also;
I have just had a thought about the maintenance cycles on these motors now they're being operated very differently to before, it will be interesting to see what happens with motor brush wear.
 
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Bletchleyite

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So far as I am aware they are the original door equipment (I'm sure I remember reading this on an official source). They have been modified to slow the door down a bit, but they have gone a bit too slow.
 

krus_aragon

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Slow doors aren't good for the TfW 230s destined for the Borderlands. Many moons ago ATW sought permission to clear 158s for the line (iirc), and were told by NR that their slow doors would extend the dwell times too much for the existing timetable.

(A new timetable, with skip stops, is planned for the 230s, but still...)
 

Harpers Tate

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....any path on the WCML slows from bletchley to MK will require 90mph+ capable unit....230 just doesn't cut it in this regard and will cause too many blockages.....
So, it's your suggestion that, over a distance of ~3 miles and an average journey time of ~4 minutes, the 230's 60mph limit would have a material effect on pathing. I can't comment on the desirability (or otherwise) of the service extension being proposed in itself, but I do struggle to see what material difference, over this distance/time, the top speed differential would make. In this post, it is claimed that a 158 takes 98 seconds to reach 60mph. That's over a third of the travelling time already gone, with (assuming similar acceleration - and I acknowledge that's an assumption) absolutely zero difference to the time taken. And presumably a similar comparison can be made in the deceleration curve at the other end of the three miles. Which leaves around a minute of travelling time in between - time during which a 230 will run at 60, and the 158 may accelerate a little more before starting to decelerate. Sorry - I just don't see the case you make.
 

Ianno87

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So, it's your suggestion that, over a distance of ~3 miles and an average journey time of ~4 minutes, the 230's 60mph limit would have a material effect on pathing. I can't comment on the desirability (or otherwise) of the service extension being proposed in itself, but I do struggle to see what material difference, over this distance/time, the top speed differential would make. In this post, it is claimed that a 158 takes 98 seconds to reach 60mph. That's over a third of the travelling time already gone, with (assuming similar acceleration - and I acknowledge that's an assumption) absolutely zero difference to the time taken. And presumably a similar comparison can be made in the deceleration curve at the other end of the three miles. Which leaves around a minute of travelling time in between - time during which a 230 will run at 60, and the 158 may accelerate a little more before starting to decelerate. Sorry - I just don't see the case you make.

350s can make quite an impressive speed between Bletchley and MK - they easily hit the 90mph limit for a short period. Quite critical for clearing the limited number of signal sections between the two.
 

Harpers Tate

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Whatever train is used for the route from Bedford has to be not-electric. Hence, at best, something like a 158/9 (90mph max) and that is the comparison vs. 230 needed.

Some "back of a fag packet" quick calculations* suggest the difference in elapsed time would be of the order of 12 seconds. Such a differential could equally easily arise in - for example - the length of time it takes one crew vs. another, or for one train length vs. another, in changing ends, provision of wheelchair access, signalling delays and so on. Even supposing relaxed timing for the reversal accounts for all of that, it still leaves a maximum differential of, say, 12 seconds which is, I'd say, negligible.

==============
* Assume 0-60 and 60-0 are about equal for 158/9 and for 230, and that in total these account for two of the three miles, give or take, based on that 98 second 0-60 time quoted elsewhere.
That leaves 1 mile in which the 158/9 continues to accelerate (let's say up to to 90) and then slows (earlier) whilst the 230 proceeds at 60 throughout. Approximate average speed for the 158/9 up to 90 and back is say 75mph vs 60 for the 230. 1 mile at 75 takes 12 seconds longer than 1 mile at 60.
 

K.o.R

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350s can make quite an impressive speed between Bletchley and MK - they easily hit the 90mph limit for a short period. Quite critical for clearing the limited number of signal sections between the two.

Those trains were hammering through at only 90mph?
 

6Gtraincrew

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Just noticed it's 230005 out today. First day in service for that one I think. It's been 004 every day previously.
 
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