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Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare
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Passenger numbers have doubled over the last 20 years. Using your theory there should’ve been plenty of money washing around.
Not sure there has been....
Jozhua
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So between Derby and Chesterfield the only services that run are intercity services (East Midlands Trains 222's and XC's 221's).
The only services between Nottingham, Derby, Burton-On-Trent and Birmingham are intercity services.
In fact, my old hometown of Long Eaton's connections to Derby/Nottingham are mostly served by intercity services.
TGV runs on dedicated lines, replacing the existing infrastructure, the UK does not. Frankly Virgin's proposal is a solution to a problem no-one asked for and creates more issues than it resolves. I strongly believe that the UK's nationwide walk-up fare system is one of few things our rail system does better than everyone else and despite a few quirks with split-ticketing, etc it offers good flexibility and simplicity for passengers.
Also airline ticketing is not a perfect world of guaranteed seats for everyone. Overbooking is a thing and passengers are not always allowed on the flight, or they get dragged off kicking and screaming United style!
The only services between Nottingham, Derby, Burton-On-Trent and Birmingham are intercity services.
In fact, my old hometown of Long Eaton's connections to Derby/Nottingham are mostly served by intercity services.
TGV runs on dedicated lines, replacing the existing infrastructure, the UK does not. Frankly Virgin's proposal is a solution to a problem no-one asked for and creates more issues than it resolves. I strongly believe that the UK's nationwide walk-up fare system is one of few things our rail system does better than everyone else and despite a few quirks with split-ticketing, etc it offers good flexibility and simplicity for passengers.
Also airline ticketing is not a perfect world of guaranteed seats for everyone. Overbooking is a thing and passengers are not always allowed on the flight, or they get dragged off kicking and screaming United style!
How practical is it for this proposal to actually be accepted or that it could or would viably happen? Pull into Coventry on a VT service in the peak and customers often pour on in droves. Are they to be confined to the semi fast operator only? Wouldn't the other operator then be entitled to all the revenue from the flexible ticket? Is it proposed that the non VT operator could and would have to cope with all the walk up passengers while the main intercity operator turned away non reserved passengers? Would the system cope? Would there be confrontations and people running up to guards on every service asking for permissions to board?
It raises so many questions and it sounds like it would be such a huge change pre HS2 which may go against helping to alleviate capacity issues which are currently coped with due to allowing standing on all services. Would it be worth the amount of work and change needed to introduce something as drastic as this just for say 4 years until HS2 changes everything again?
You also have a rail system with protection for the customer in terms of conditions of travel etc. The railway has an obligation to get them there or to provide accommodation providing they hold a valid ticket for that day. If we are saying no reservation no travel, is the railway actually going to turn people away and be able to say sorry we can't help because services are full? Airlines might be able to turn people away from airports who havnt booked on a specific service but it's a different thing if you had passengers turned away from services because of no booked seat with no other way of them getting home or somewhere safe?
It raises so many questions and it sounds like it would be such a huge change pre HS2 which may go against helping to alleviate capacity issues which are currently coped with due to allowing standing on all services. Would it be worth the amount of work and change needed to introduce something as drastic as this just for say 4 years until HS2 changes everything again?
You also have a rail system with protection for the customer in terms of conditions of travel etc. The railway has an obligation to get them there or to provide accommodation providing they hold a valid ticket for that day. If we are saying no reservation no travel, is the railway actually going to turn people away and be able to say sorry we can't help because services are full? Airlines might be able to turn people away from airports who havnt booked on a specific service but it's a different thing if you had passengers turned away from services because of no booked seat with no other way of them getting home or somewhere safe?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This latter point is very relevant - kipping on an airport might not be fun, but airport terminals generally stay open all night and are heated, well-staffed and definitely safe places. Railway stations often are and do not.
It's a valid point, passenger numbers way up, fares have risen faster than inflation, some operators, notably ECML, still have just the same stock they had 20 years ago - so where has the money gone.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's difficult to operate railways profitably. It's just made them, er, less unprofitable.
TOC profit margins are tiny compared with running buses - typically well under 5%, whereas I'm sure I recall First define "worth bothering with" as a margin of about 12%.
Not aware of overbooking on low cost airlines.Never seen it myself. I think it is worth having the conversation re Virgins proposal but it would take a see change in organisation and working practices for such a scheme to work.We don't want trains running around with fresh air nor do we want trains with few carriages that cause overcrowding. Do we design a network for London centric only? It's a choice to live in Market Harborough and daily commute to London. Do we have to design our train patterns for the few who long distance commute or do we put up with the shocking 2 carriage X country Brum to Stansted, which happens frequently. Changes are required for the future of our railways, and everything should be up for discussion. The desires of Manchester to London passengers are different to those commuting from Milton Keynes.The question is do you try and come up with a solution which is workable for the majority or do we do nothing. The Saver and Open Tickets are not sacrosanct to the solution, in my opinion.
We will recall that, at the end of BR, Inter City was breaking even, including proper attribution of infrastructure (which went to private Railtrack) and overhead costs. If it hadn't been, it's unlikely sufficient interest would have been shown in the first privatisation proposals.
NSEFAN
Established Member
And as soon as you replace trains or build infrastructure, another financial hole is created. Hence more passengers will only mean more profit until action is taken to properly cope with those passengers.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
VTWC operate relatively few trains between Euston and MK in the peak and they are not, despite what some may think, full and standing (as they are very early on southbound and very late on northbound). It wouldn't take an awful lot of extra capacity on LNR for them to fit there instead. Upping all the 8s to 12 would probably be enough, there are quite a few 8 car services earlier on when the VTs do stop.
The problem occurs where there is no local service e.g. Crewe-Warrington.
They may not be sacrosanct as ticketing entities, but the ability to travel at times that the passenger needs as opposed to the time that the TOC wants to limit travellers to for their own revenue maximisation purposes on a publicly owned railway is a fundamental requisite of the overall UK public transport system. That flexibility should continue to be available up to the passenger's arrival at the station.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Ironically quite a lot of publically owned railways (such as the execrable SNCF) operate compulsory reservations.
In some ways it beggars belief that VT want rid of standees - that caps their money making ability at the number of seats. Changing the pricing model to abolish off peak walk-ups (i.e. have a model like DB where you have an "Anytime" plus train specific Advances only) would surely be a more profitable line for them to push?
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
Restricting freedom can't really be argued as beneficial.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is and it isn't. Compulsory reservations benefit those who are able to commit to a specific travel time and are able to get on the train they wish to get on - the environment will be less crowded for them. They don't benefit those who aren't able to travel, either at their chosen time or at all.
I'm against it generally, but it's less of an issue for HS2 as if that's all built those services will be overlaid on the existing network.
On reduced subsidy/ increased premium payments.
That may be so in other countries but I did qualify the need for flexibility:
"but the ability to travel at times that the passenger needs as opposed to the time that the TOC wants to limit travellers to for their own revenue maximisation purposes on a publicly owned railway is a fundamental requisite of the overall UK public transport system." The established modes of transport in the UK have always included flexibile travel arrangements, and to remove them would adversely affect many who need them. The railway is a public asset and even though the privatisation allows commercial companies to bid for franchises, the fact that finite capacity* can be arbitrarily restricted for commercial interests is a fundamental change to the nature of public transport in the UK. I do agree with you that HS2 is different in that itduplicates existing routes so passengers would not be left with no alternatives, - which may make their journey slower.
*TOCs are granted the resource of paths on the publicly owned infrastructure (i.e. the tracks/signalling/applicable power sources/stations) in order to perform their contracts. Either they meet the service requirements of their contracts or they don't. If they don't because the infrastructure is inadequate, that is primarily the government's responsibility, through the DfT and Network Rail. If they fail to provide adequate (reliable) rolling stock capacity, that is a direct failure of the contractor. Changing the requirement to allow refusal of travel when there clearly is safe capacity to accommodate those needing to travel on the grounds that comfort of some passengers trumps the right of some to travel at all does not align with the established principles of rail travel in the UK.
Bevan Price
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What makes you think that they would bother to ask ? If there was a large crowd without reservations, they would just pile onto the train, and it would be a brave member of staff who tried to stop them... Now obviously, I don't want anyone to be hurt, but I feel that could be an almost inevitable consequence if the VT idea was ever adopted.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You might have noticed the difference between the staffing and security levels at airports vs. railway stations.
You might similarly have noticed the difference between the number of passengers on a coach and a train, which would give rise to a different size of baying mob.
Bevan Price
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And also, for almost 2 centuries, UK passengers have been able to use almost any available train without advance booking. What makes VT (or other TOC managements) think that the majority would willingly accept a change to compulsory reservations ?
Class 170101
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I cannot see how compulsory reservations and no standing works for the business model. The car will be the winner. Unfortunately its a lack of joined up thinking or an unwillingness to do it thats part of the problem.
The issues of the West Coast at Easter will be repeated again probably for many Bank Holidays to come due to HS2 but its also how the WCML seems to be maintained. The ECML is generally open at Bank Holidays, though August 2019 south of Peterborough will be an unusual exception. However I doubt there will be extra services on the WCML that weekend just lots of standees across the network.
The issues of the West Coast at Easter will be repeated again probably for many Bank Holidays to come due to HS2 but its also how the WCML seems to be maintained. The ECML is generally open at Bank Holidays, though August 2019 south of Peterborough will be an unusual exception. However I doubt there will be extra services on the WCML that weekend just lots of standees across the network.
The Planner
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LNW have an arrangement with LNE to not do anything on August Bank Holidays so they can block the ECML.
Because when you take something away from people, they don't like it and tend to protest about it, sometimes with direct action.
Trains are not the same as coaches or planes. It is generally accepted that passengers can't stand on an aircraft or coach for safety reasons, whereas it is accepted to be safe enough on the rail network.
Reducing the capacity of trains whilst passenger numbers are increasing is also illogical, which will quickly get highlighted by the media.
ForTheLoveOf
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Personally, I can't imagine that Virgin actually want standing to be banned. They are putting it forward as a means of having the current mixed walk-up and Advance fare structure abolished so that operators can have full commercial control of all fares on all trains, and are proposing the banning of standing in order to make it seem an improvement. Of course, everyone is against it being banned, and thus they would then be seen to 'acquiesce' to the demands of passengers by offering standing reservations.
In many ways, the TOCs already have the fully commercial control they seek over fares, at least at times when they are not required to offer regulated products (i.e. before 10:30am for all journeys, and 15:00-19:00 inclusive for ex-London area travel). The Anytime fares are often set so high - most notably on Virgin - that it simply isn't an option that enters into the ordinary passenger's consideration. Thus the TOCs can set the Advances at such a level as they see fit.
The real reason that I suspect these proposals are being made is to make is seem acceptable for there no longer to be an interavailable regulated fare. Once the public has been opened up to that idea by the false suggestion it would eliminate standing, they will not object to proposals such as the RDG's "easier fares" as much.
I would not trust Virgin's, or indeed any other TOC's, motives in this area.
In many ways, the TOCs already have the fully commercial control they seek over fares, at least at times when they are not required to offer regulated products (i.e. before 10:30am for all journeys, and 15:00-19:00 inclusive for ex-London area travel). The Anytime fares are often set so high - most notably on Virgin - that it simply isn't an option that enters into the ordinary passenger's consideration. Thus the TOCs can set the Advances at such a level as they see fit.
The real reason that I suspect these proposals are being made is to make is seem acceptable for there no longer to be an interavailable regulated fare. Once the public has been opened up to that idea by the false suggestion it would eliminate standing, they will not object to proposals such as the RDG's "easier fares" as much.
I would not trust Virgin's, or indeed any other TOC's, motives in this area.
ECML is due to shortly have new stock.
However with regards to the wider matter, the day to running cost of running the railway in the UK (excluding HS2 and Enhancements to the existing network, but not maintenance) is about £178 million per year.
As such chances are, once a few more enhancements schemes are completed along with extra rolling stock providing extra capacity, the cost savings/extra income is likely to make the figure closer to zero or maybe even result in a positive figure at some point soon (maybe within the CP6 period)
kristiang85
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I really hope that the suggestion for reservation-only travel is taken seriously.
I'm currently on the Virgin 1830 Euston to Glasgow. It is horrifically overcrowded, and they cancelled the seat reservations - the guard says it was technical issues, the Twitter team says the reservations were cancelled on purpose due to the overcrowding. It has been absolute hell - I saw a woman threatening a couple with the police due to them sitting in her seat! You can barely move through the train due to the people standing, and it was delayed due to safety concerns.
For peak time services, I think seat reservations should be compulsory. Then even if the system goes down (as virgin's does 50% of the time) at least people know they will be guaranteed their seat. Passengers these days just can't self police.
Luckily I know it's an issue so I always get to the platform early using RTT, but sitting in this atmosphere of people nearly coming to blows is terrible.
Do virgin offer compensation when seat reservations aren't honoured by the way?
I'm currently on the Virgin 1830 Euston to Glasgow. It is horrifically overcrowded, and they cancelled the seat reservations - the guard says it was technical issues, the Twitter team says the reservations were cancelled on purpose due to the overcrowding. It has been absolute hell - I saw a woman threatening a couple with the police due to them sitting in her seat! You can barely move through the train due to the people standing, and it was delayed due to safety concerns.
For peak time services, I think seat reservations should be compulsory. Then even if the system goes down (as virgin's does 50% of the time) at least people know they will be guaranteed their seat. Passengers these days just can't self police.
Luckily I know it's an issue so I always get to the platform early using RTT, but sitting in this atmosphere of people nearly coming to blows is terrible.
Do virgin offer compensation when seat reservations aren't honoured by the way?
F Great Eastern
Established Member
So you're going to be turning thousands of passengers away and not allowing them to travel at all? I'm sorry to break this to you, but commuter railways have standing passengers all over the world at peak times, because to provide a massive increase in capacity for just a couple of trips a day on a train would result in massive fare hikes to pay for stock that spends 90% of the time parked up out of use.
What about people who travel for business who cannot be sure of which train they are taking? Should they be told that the Railway is not suitable for them and just go back to driving their dirty polluting cars which are destroying the environment?
You do realise that making seat reservations compulsory won't mean that overnight no train will ever have a broken electronic system or fail to have reservation slips in?
What do you want them to do when due to extremely late running they can't put the slips in Cancel the train? What do you want them to do when the on-board system fails? Delay the train whilst someone fixes it?
The removal of flexible tickets would mean that the railway will be losing massive amounts of business travel to the private car. I use the train for business now but without flexible tickets it's easier to just drive.
Think standing room reservations would need to be made compulsory as well! Maybe offer a £5 discount from the seated fare, not saying this should be an excuse to skirt the regulated fare structure.
Midnight Sun
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At Stansted, You be turfed out and direct to the airport Hotel. I have landed late at Stansted missing the last train to March (Before 9pm). More or less everything is closed and you are rushed to the exit.
https://qz.com/quartzy/1313548/sleeping-in-airports-london-stansted-cracks-down-on-the-practice/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/975144/Stansted-Airport-flights-sleeping-passengers-guard-patrols
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