Caledonian Sleeper

trebor79 · 29 Apr 2019

How would a "motivated" crew have dealt differently with a signalling failure? It's totally beyond the control of anyone on the train.

The minimum rest periods are there for good reason. History is littered with examples of disasters in transport and industry due to people working longer hours than is sensible, with not enough rest.
Ensuring the crew are properly rested, safe to perform their duties and are not sleep deprived and grumpy is putting the passenger first, IMO.

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Mingulay · 29 Apr 2019

trebor79 said:
How would a "motivated" crew have dealt differently with a signalling failure? It's totally beyond the control of anyone on the train.

The minimum rest periods are there for good reason. History is littered with examples of disasters in transport and industry due to people working longer hours than is sensible, with not enough rest.
Ensuring the crew are properly rested, safe to perform their duties and are not sleep deprived and grumpy is putting the passenger first, IMO.

Tend to agree rest periods are required and its for good reasons and I had anticipated such a response . Motivated only to the extent that for the sake of an hour there may be scope to ensure customers are not tired and grumpy by delays . So how long have they had since finishing the delayed shift? I am not saying the delay is their fault , just how one mitigates the knock from the signaling fault .

Highlandspring · 29 Apr 2019

1S25 arrived in Inverness at 11:47 so by the time they have disposed of the train, booked off and walked to the hotel they won't be in bed before 12:45 - 13:00 at the earliest. And that's having booked on around 20:30 the previous night. I'd rather have the people who are responsible for my safety well rested and not suffering from fatigue.

Mingulay · 29 Apr 2019

Thanks

That’s a given. And I agree. There is little scope for wriggle room in that time frame you set out.

Being Devils advocate. Whilst there is minimum rest periods for good safety reasons , I assume it’s just down to trust that the time allocated is used as rest ? In any job , safety critical or not , we can all have reasons for insufficient rest and fatigued at work . Are there specific conditions attached to the rest time between shifts for safety reasons?

Tricky to police in reality.

Highlandspring said:
1S25 arrived in Inverness at 11:47 so by the time they have disposed of the train, booked off and walked to the hotel they won't be in bed before 12:45 - 13:00 at the earliest. And that's having booked on around 20:30 the previous night. I'd rather have the people who are responsible for my safety well rested and not suffering from fatigue.

ss

jopsuk · 29 Apr 2019

it made sense to launch on a Sunday night, with the whole six-day-a-week operation and it being the night when weekly commuters from Scotland head to London.

given the location of the signalling problems, it would have been a problem had there not been engineering works.

bobbyrail · 29 Apr 2019

The train is scheduled to leave Inverness at 20:45 but if it left at that time what time would the crew be required to start? One presumes that this is well before departure, an hour at least if not more! The sleeper arrived at INV at 11:47 so presuming the crew were in bed by 12:45 they would have to wake at 18:45 to give themselves 1 hour to wake up and get showered, shaved and into uniform, then jog down to the station to be signed on at 19:45. So that's 6 hours sleep after a probable 16+ hour shift. With that i personally would not begrudge them another hours sleep, hats off to them if they turn up tonight i say, clearly dedicated to the passengers if they do.

Darandio · 29 Apr 2019

Mingulay said:
Ah Fair enough. Or is it ? Whilst you cant expect exhausted staff to work, but I wonder if some flexibility could be granted , for the sake of one hours less kip , the crew could be motivated to stick to timetable given the passenger should always be put first on the railways . Regulations I accept can be safety critical , but some scope for flexibility ?

Cannot believe I am reading this, especially the bold part. Safety should always be first, nothing else.

221129 · 29 Apr 2019

bobbyrail said:
The train is scheduled to leave Inverness at 20:45 but if it left at that time what time would the crew be required to start? One presumes that this is well before departure, an hour at least if not more! The sleeper arrived at INV at 11:47 so presuming the crew were in bed by 12:45 they would have to wake at 18:45 to give themselves 1 hour to wake up and get showered, shaved and into uniform, then jog down to the station to be signed on at 19:45. So that's 6 hours sleep after a probable 16+ hour shift. With that i personally would not begrudge them another hours sleep, hats off to them if they turn up tonight i say, clearly dedicated to the passengers if they do.

If it's the same as everyone else then they won't be able to book on for duty until 12 hours has elapsed from them booking off.

BRX · 29 Apr 2019

221129 said:
If it's the same as everyone else then they won't be able to book on for duty until 12 hours has elapsed from them booking off.

That would barely work even on days with no delay.

Glenn1969 · 29 Apr 2019

The Fort William portion did not arrive until nearly 2pm. That train should leave at 1950 back to Euston. Surely that crew have no chance of complying with regs if the train leaves on time whichis what RTT is showing

jagardner1984 · 29 Apr 2019

Presumably if last nights was a Fort William Crew, they may be on a rest day and a different crew taking the train southbound tonight. Presumably such a delay has a knock on to all sorts of Cleaning, servicing and other operations in Fort William. As ever, the story will be all about how David Mundell was held up a couple of hours, not how amazingly CS’s staff did to keep services running tonight and last night, in the circumstances.

Out of interest, does anyone know what level of overnight staffing they have OFF the trains ? I was pretty impressed as to how promptly they’d been replying to customers all through the night last night keeping people informed.

Highlandspring · 29 Apr 2019

The Guest Services office in Inverness is manned 24hrs right through from Sunday evening to Saturday morning. GBRf have a dedicated Sleeper Controller in Peterborough 24/7 too.

bobbyrail · 29 Apr 2019

221129 said:
If it's the same as everyone else then they won't be able to book on for duty until 12 hours has elapsed from them booking off.

I hear what you are saying but.......
For example on
5th May the Highlander departs London Kings Cross at 21:18 and arrives at Inverness at 08:39 on 06/05/19
It then departs Inverness on 06/05/19 at 20:45 getting to Euston at 09:03

Between 08:39 and 20:45 their are 12 hours and 6 minutes, however the crew will start before the stated departure time, so if it's the same crew as the previous night then are they working over their hours?????

Highlandspring · 29 Apr 2019

I think sleeper stewards - sorry, guest ambassadors - have an agreement to have 9hrs minimum rest when lodging. I have a document which sets up exactly how their roster works but I don’t have access to it right now.

bobbyrail · 29 Apr 2019

Highlandspring said:
I think sleeper stewards - sorry, guest ambassadors - have an agreement to have 9hrs minimum rest when lodging. I have a document which sets up exactly how their roster works but I don’t have access to it right now.

So with the delays incurred last night/early this morning that very clearly explains tonights rescheduled departure time, how anyone could expect anything other is beyond me.

221129 · 29 Apr 2019

Highlandspring said:
I think sleeper stewards - sorry, guest ambassadors - have an agreement to have 9hrs minimum rest when lodging. I have a document which sets up exactly how their roster works but I don’t have access to it right now.

That makes more sense.

Suraggu · 29 Apr 2019

bobbyrail said:
So with the delays incurred last night/early this morning that very clearly explains tonights rescheduled departure time, how anyone could expect anything other is beyond me.

Probably because some will either not be aware of lodging turns or that they believe every company should have enough staff so trains can depart right time everytime.

Bletchleyite · 29 Apr 2019

Glenn1969 said:
The Fort William portion did not arrive until nearly 2pm. That train should leave at 1950 back to Euston. Surely that crew have no chance of complying with regs if the train leaves on time whichis what RTT is showing

RTT can't show delays at origin, those are manually entered into the PIS.

68000 · 29 Apr 2019

The delay last night in the Cobbinshaw area was due to faulty/damaged signalling power cable. All trains ran Emergency Special Working over one line

Scotrail84 · 30 Apr 2019

68000 said:
The delay last night in the Cobbinshaw area was due to faulty/damaged signalling power cable. All trains ran Emergency Special Working over one line

Overheard someone saying it was cable theft.

Highlandspring · 30 Apr 2019

Scotrail84 said:
Overheard someone saying it was cable theft.

Earth fault on a 650V feeder rather than theft.

Mingulay · 30 Apr 2019

bobbyrail said:
So with the delays incurred last night/early this morning that very clearly explains tonights rescheduled departure time, how anyone could expect anything other is beyond me.

Well that is assuming anyone , any passenger, is intimately aware of the rest regulations and details and facts. It's not reasonable to conclude they should.

My colleague who was contacted to advise of the delay enquire why was told it was a continuation stemming from previous night's signal delay . No explanation of rest hours etc etc. That could or I would suggest more likely mean to a mere passenger the signal fault had yet to be resolved. My enquiry on here which is of course not what a passenger should be expected to access revealed the facts and the true reason which is understandable , but not the explanation given by servo. I merely suggest to you the operator is not giving good information to customers. Why? Possibly due to what was suggested above it would be expected a good operation would have sufficient staff to keep to timetable if mandatory rest periods have to be strictly adhered to as they appear to be for what I accept in the main are good reasons.

It boils down to communication and whether knock on delays can be avoided by proper staffing levels to minimise disruption to passengers. How anyone cannot have some sympathy with that is beyond me and the travelling public. How anyone can think you should sit up or wait at an unmanned station well into the middle of the night to catch a delayed train due to a delay incurred the previous day to arrive potentially late at your destination is beyond me .

6Z09 · 30 Apr 2019

I don't think any of the privatised rail companies carry any spare staff !
Most are short staffed and reliant on staff goodwill.

HowardGWR · 30 Apr 2019

I see that the southbound train has made up nearly all the time despite leaving Inverness 75 mins late. I presume the pax had to get to their stations on the original departure times until Edinburgh, which would have been a lot of waiting around, perhaps without facilities, at places like Dunblane, or were they advised to get to the station (say) half an hour later?

Mingulay · 30 Apr 2019

Darandio said:
Cannot believe I am reading this, especially the bold part. Safety should always be first, nothing else.

I do agree and I recognise we have one of the safest railways in the world so we are doing something right. No issue with that. However I am just trying to understand where the boundaries are and what the regulations are. How they are policed and where the line is drawn. If all staff on trains are safety critical. Then the word critical implies no ifs no buts no room for error or compromise no room for chance.

Most obviously the driver will have to alert and have no alcohol or drugs in the system and no obvious sign of fatigue. I understand that is policed by random checks? Or before every shift a breath test ? Or just put down to trust given instant dismal if caught by random check or found impaired after an incident? If safety critical. Is it not safer to have breath test at start of every shift for all staff? It's where you draw the line I guess. My original query now answered by some incredulously that there is no possibility that the extra hour rest is not safety critical is accepted as the staff on board could be tired or grumpy and that's not good or safe. So if safety critical how is the tired and grumpy a pass or fail policed? Is that safety critical or just good practice? If I see a yawning grumpy guard on a train should I feel unsafe ? Report it? Just trying to better understand from the passengers perspective where the safety first at all costs we take for granted as good practice , becomes an excuse for well...operational reasons or commercial reasons that can become blurred if you cover it in a uniform safety blanket excuse. To restate not trying to water down safety but I hope the point I'm trying to make and the distinction is clear in the balance between safety and passenger and customer experience .

LNW-GW Joint · 30 Apr 2019

HowardGWR said:
I see that the southbound train has made up nearly all the time despite leaving Inverness 75 mins late. I presume the pax had to get to their stations on the original departure times until Edinburgh, which would have been a lot of waiting around, perhaps without facilities, at places like Dunblane, or were they advised to get to the station (say) half an hour later?

And the Lowlander arrived Euston 39 early.
Northbound trains have recovered about 20-30 minutes of their late departures from Euston.

Kingston Flyer · 30 Apr 2019

Trying to book for sometime early July, but the website is just sticking to the buffering screen (i.e. the spinning circle) and getting no further.

Anyone got any ideas? / Has the system not been updated yet?

31160 · 30 Apr 2019

Does anyone know if when the MK5s are put on the highland will the Inverness portion be allocated 2 x 73's to reliably get it up the hills or should one suffice

Lee_Again · 30 Apr 2019

Kingston Flyer said:
Trying to book for sometime early July, but the website is just sticking to the buffering screen (i.e. the spinning circle) and getting no further.

Anyone got any ideas? / Has the system not been updated yet?

Use a different browser. Chrome should be ok. I suspect you're using Microsoft Internet Explorer.

alistairlees · 30 Apr 2019

Kingston Flyer said:
Trying to book for sometime early July, but the website is just sticking to the buffering screen (i.e. the spinning circle) and getting no further.

Anyone got any ideas? / Has the system not been updated yet?

Are you trying to book a return journey? PM me direct please and I will help

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