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Are Heritage railways trying to have it both ways ?

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DavidGrain

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I know that many purists don't like Thomas Days but it is all about 'Bums on seats' and it is something which does bring the paying customers in. And hopefully introduces a new generation to railways.
 
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AndrewE

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I know that many purists don't like Thomas Days but it is all about 'Bums on seats' and it is something which does bring the paying customers in.
As long as it really does... I understood that Thomas had lost traction nowadays, and that the licensing fees and other costs of hosting events were so high that the railway might even end up out of pocket!
 

Meerkat

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How close could you get to Thomas the Tank branding without ending up in court?

I am thinking Terry the Tank or whatever, maybe a name that connects to the particular line and can be exploited commercially and for advertising?
Are you allowed to put a face on the front of a train without ending up in court? That is probably all you need on social media to get kids along....
 

Ianno87

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How close could you get to Thomas the Tank branding without ending up in court?

I am thinking Terry the Tank or whatever, maybe a name that connects to the particular line and can be exploited commercially and for advertising?
Are you allowed to put a face on the front of a train without ending up in court? That is probably all you need on social media to get kids along....

I notice the SVR (I think) runs 'Wizard Expresses' (or something to that effect).

Any resemblance to the Hogwarts Express etc. appears of course purely coincidental.
 

Meole

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Quote in this month`s Railway Magazine, from Jonathan Jones-Pratt (WSR chairman) :

"No Heritage railway in the country can make enough profit to preserve and enhance its infrastructure, there has to be a supporting charity, or even more than one"

I`m assuming the above is in addition to the fact most staff on Heritage railways are in fact unpaid volunteers.

So "the days of Heritage railways not being for hobbyists" * aren`t quite here then ?

* As in they`re not just for those with no particular interest in railways. Obviously the latter are required for a Heritage line to succeed, but one things for absolutely certain, it won`t succeed without "Hobbyists", as defined by those who give their time and money directly, and those who are railway fans who like to travel on Heritage trains.
A small number of the heritage railways in England operate as Ltd COs rather than based on charitable trusts, his statement appears to gloss over this.
 

DavidGrain

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How close could you get to Thomas the Tank branding without ending up in court?

I am thinking Terry the Tank or whatever, maybe a name that connects to the particular line and can be exploited commercially and for advertising?
Are you allowed to put a face on the front of a train without ending up in court? That is probably all you need on social media to get kids along....

Talyllyn operate one of their locos occasionally with a face on the front using a name which has no reference to any of the locos that are on the Thomas books


A small number of the heritage railways in England operate as Ltd COs rather than based on charitable trusts, his statement appears to gloss over this.

I think all heritage railways have to operate through a company even if the company is owned by a charitable trust. Volunteers have to be classed as employees for various legal and insurance purposes and it is much easier to comply with these rules through a limited company than in the names of the trustees
 
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No Heritage railway in the country can make enough profit to preserve and enhance its infrastructure, there has to be a supporting charity, or even more than one

Is that an actual fact from Railway Magazine or is it just a wild guess from them?
What makes me question this is that the Paignton and Dartmouth Steam Railway is a commercial operation and is profit based. If they aren't making money then why do they operate?
 

Tom B

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Volunteers have to be classed as employees for various legal and insurance purposes and it is much easier to comply with these rules through a limited company than in the names of the trustees

I'm fairly sure that this is the case everywhere, from a safety/insurance perspective. How much they are (or aren't) being paid is irrelevant, it's still necessary to ensure that they are fully competent at doing it etc.
 

Worf

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Both Snowdon Mountain Railway and Llanberis Lake Railway are limited companies with fully paid staff and no volunteers and no supporting society. They both survive (and prosper) purely on their operating profits. I believe the Brecon Mountain Railway may be the same. I suppose it depends on whether you class them as "heritage railways" or not.
 

Llanigraham

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Both Snowdon Mountain Railway and Llanberis Lake Railway are limited companies with fully paid staff and no volunteers and no supporting society. They both survive (and prosper) purely on their operating profits. I believe the Brecon Mountain Railway may be the same. I suppose it depends on whether you class them as "heritage railways" or not.
Brecon MR is as also is the Vale of Rheidol.

And the fact that any railway is a charity and run wholly or partly by volunteers does not stop it being a Limited Company.
 

J-Rod

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Soooo... went to (one of) my local heritage lines this weekend and got chatting to one of their volunteers. Unfortunately, this line is blighted by two rather long Linear Scrapyards (tm), one a damn sight worse than the other, plus some half built infrastructure.. and when asked about these things, got told that the infrastructure (a station) plus many of the (now potentially scrap) vehicles don't belong to the railway but members who simply refuse to do anything with them (some due to lack of funds to restore, some due to sheer bloody-mindedness - and one due to both, apparently).

This particular railway has alot of potential, plus some very exciting things happening in the not too distant future, and it seems so frustrating that it's being held back by some of their 'supporters' somewhat selfish non-compliance with their overall goals. I'm not sure of its current status (Ltd Company/Charitable Trust, though I'm fairly sure it's the former without looking it up) but still being somewhat reliant on the enthusiast fraternity seems to be doing more harm than good.

(And also - as an aside - why save an old Mk1 from the scrap if all you're going to do is let it rot?!)
 

DavidGrain

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The problem is that some people have the wrong idea of property. They think that because they are members of a club or society, then they individually think that they can act as if it were their own property. There have been several cases over the years when a heritage railway have had to evict the owners of locos or rolling stock. This comes back to the argument at the start of this thread when someone posting on the thread thought that just because he was a member of the supporting society he should have the right to wonder anywhere on the property taking photographs without any restriction.
 

Tom B

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In volunteer run organisations as well, there can be a tendency for people to want to do as they please as they're giving up time etc. I suppose that is to an extent understandable but if everyone were to do that, an awful lot would end up not done!
 

Steptoe

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Soooo... went to (one of) my local heritage lines this weekend and got chatting to one of their volunteers. Unfortunately, this line is blighted by two rather long Linear Scrapyards (tm), one a damn sight worse than the other, plus some half built infrastructure.. and when asked about these things, got told that the infrastructure (a station) plus many of the (now potentially scrap) vehicles don't belong to the railway but members who simply refuse to do anything with them (some due to lack of funds to restore, some due to sheer bloody-mindedness - and one due to both, apparently).

Your description rung the block bell so to speak, is perchance the railway you speak of located in East Anglia? ;)

If so, can't disagree re.the linear scrapyard description, heard this many times including from volunteers, but would like to offer an explanation re. the half-built 'station'. This is a replica rebuild of a waiting room literally from the foundations up, which was bulldozed by BR when line was singled, undertaken by two volunteers, one 'fulltime' and the other still working for a living.

The employed member has paid for the entire cost of the rebuild from his own pocket and the other has professional bricklaying skills. The 'bricklayer' passed away a couple of years ago in rather tragic circumstances and understandably the remaining member of the team has lost enthusiasm though he still progresses the project from time to time (his was the project manager role plus woodworking skills) bearing in mind he is still working fulltime.

I regret to say that none of the other volunteers have stepped up to the plate to replace the bricklayer although possibly no-one has the relevant skills :'(

I appreciate it's easy to form a snap judgement when passing by on the train without knowing the history so the question I leave you with is whether it is better to posses a three quarters finished structure or a bare platform?
 

J-Rod

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Your description rung the block bell so to speak, is perchance the railway you speak of located in East Anglia? ;)

I appreciate it's easy to form a snap judgement when passing by on the train without knowing the history so the question I leave you with is whether it is better to posses a three quarters finished structure or a bare platform?

Maybe. Possibly. Might be.

As to the rest - forgive me, it was what I was told by one of the volunteers (who obviously wasn't in full possession of the facts, which are alot more complex than they made out!). However, projects left on half for years on end do end up just looking terrible and doing alot more harm than good...

By the way, I do hope that it does get sorted. I really do. If I had any perceivable bricklaying skills, I'd be right there.
 
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Maybe. Possibly. Might be.

As to the rest - forgive me, it was what I was told by one of the volunteers (who obviously wasn't in full possession of the facts, which are alot more complex than they made out!). However, projects left on half for years on end do end up just looking terrible and doing alot more harm than good...

By the way, I do hope that it does get sorted. I really do. If I had any perceivable bricklaying skills, I'd be right there.
The reasons given are perfectly plausible but the customers are less than likely to know of them. They will just see a poo heap and wonder why they have paid good money to do so.

Like it or not, tourist railways are in competition with the likes of Blenheim Palace where decrepitude is not part of the experience.
 

Steptoe

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The reasons given are perfectly plausible but the customers are less than likely to know of them. They will just see a poo heap and wonder why they have paid good money to do so.

Like it or not, tourist railways are in competition with the likes of Blenheim Palace where decrepitude is not part of the experience.
However, projects left on half for years on end do end up just looking terrible and doing alot more harm than good...

By the way, I do hope that it does get sorted. I really do. If I had any perceivable bricklaying skills, I'd be right there.

I appreciate and thank you for your comments as regular volunteers/members do need reminding of what visitors actually think as, apart from the comments book, we may have no idea.

For example, I walk past the building in question without even noticing it (apart from thinking it creates a pinch point on an otherwise clear platform!) while visitors who have made repeated journeys can't help noticing that no progress is being made.

It's just that I have known/knew the erstwhile building team for many years and what they have already achieved; just for example they extended the platform on which the building stands to accommodate our longer trains, again by themselves and at their own expense, so am reluctant to condemn them now, whereas new volunteers may not know the history and have no such scruples.

As I mentioned, the hope is that a phoenix will rise from the ashes, unfortunately my basic DIY skills don't match up to the craftmanship required (though I did assist in a minor way with the (now under;))ground works.
 

thejuggler

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Brecon MR is as also is the Vale of Rheidol.

And the fact that any railway is a charity and run wholly or partly by volunteers does not stop it being a Limited Company.

If a charity is trading (especially one with a large turnover) it is generally company practice to have a separate Ltd company. The operational business(es) can then generate funds to enable the charity to carry out its main function, it is usually a company limited by guarantee. This enables the company to undertake trading outside the scope of the charitable aims.

My rugby club is a community interest company (very similar to a charity) - it has three operational trading companies - one is an events company which manages events at the club which aren't rugby related - beer festival, weddings, funerals etc. These activities have nothing to do with rugby, but the income and profits go towards sustaining the rugby club activity which is the principal aim of the CIC.
 

cactustwirly

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Just to clear one thing up, I am not a trainspotter. Being a trainspotter in my demographic is not good and is the word "trainspotter" is used to describe anyone even slightly out of the ordinary. Therefor even if you are my age and you are a trainspotter, you just say that you have an interest in trains and nothing else.



I have read the report and from what i can gather the time line goes like this;

In April of 2017 the SDR had carried out work on the carriage which was the put back into service. On the 22nd of June 2017 a child left their seat with its mother to go to the toilet in question. The child began to open the door and then stepped forward and began to fall when his mother grabbed him. He sustained minor injuries which was reported to RAIB on the 25th of the same month.

This tells me that the person who permanently fastened the door to put it out of use should be 100% personally liable for this. You don't need to be a engineer to stop a door from opening. Timber, screws and a big sign is what was necessary.

RAID report "The RAIB found that the method of securing the door was inadequate, so that over time the door became less secure to the extent it was possible for the child to open it."

For the door to work loose over a few months it must of been a poor job to begin with.

This obviously a health a safety issue that needs to be addressed at the SDR but many on here seem to be painting every heritage railway with the same brush. Unfortunately i missed the days where heritage railways were big train sets for enthusiasts to play trains (what a wonderful time that would of been). This a isolated incident and does not represent the Dartmouth Steam Railway, the West Somerset railway, the national mainline managed by Network Rail nor any other railway in the country.



It is not my "wonderful SDR". In actually fact i don't like this heritage railway at all. There are other local to me that are far Superior with nicer staff, better locos and a nicer route.



That's funny because in the 19 months i have been working on this site i haven't once been asked to leave, in fact i am one of the safer ones. The H&S is one of the reasons why i stay away from commercial sites such as the IKEA that was built near me last year. I would much rather work on Perimmon, Barrat and Bovis sites where they a far more relaxed. I have friends that worked on the IKEA site and they left as they never managed to get anything done as the whole day was taken up with risk assessments.

It was a serious offence on the SDR, if that child had died, many people at the SDR would have ended up with a Gross Negligence Manslaughter charge.
H&S is there for a reason, you clearly are too immature to realise that!
It's got nothing to do with the signage, the issue is that there was a systematic failure from across the board, that carriage should have never been in service in the first place

Thank god, you're not on my uni course, in our lab sessions we have risk assessments, these are vitally important as we use dangerous chemicals.
 

Alanko

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...you clearly are too immature to realise that!

I've stalked this thread since its inception. I was briefly surprised by how young Charlie was, but I've encountered this sort of mentality before. I wager young Charlie has been told at some point that he is young and therefore probably a bit soft and a bit mollycoddled, so he adopts all the chippy chunterings of his elders to try and seek their approval. A disaster to work with people like that, as they actively seek out the lazy corner-cutting and prejudices of their elder peers in a bid to be 'one of the real men'. I encountered a lot of this mentality at agricultural college from the farm boys, and as such I don't really ever trust 18 year old boys in flat caps. :lol:



To get back to the opening post, I'm surprised that the notion of "more and more heritage lines are becoming more like businesses" is perceived as a bad thing. I'm sensing that, traditionally, if you volunteered for a railway you were automatically granted the privilege of going wherever you liked and getting to see stuff the ordinary plebs didn't. This privilege has been revoked at some point recently, upsetting Justin Smith to make him start this discussion. All this does is make me question the motives of volunteers like Justin Smith. Do you muck in because you want to see a railway succeed, or do you do it for the exclusivity brownie points? I thought volunteering was meant to be a selfless act. ;)


Back when I was a kid I loved crawling around the collection at Bo'Ness. I remember walking in between two uncoupled vehicles (I don't remember what they were) and being warned by somebody, possibly my father, to avoid the grease on the buffer beams, which were at head height relative to me. I don't recall exactly how much freedom we had to simply go and explore the sidings, but I wager there is less of it now!

You also can't simply turn up at a building site on Monday morning and ask for a job, or spend your summer holidays cleaning factory boilers. Times have changed, and on a much bigger scale than simply within the realm of heritage railways. If these railways maintained a fast 'n' loose attitude towards on-site safety then they would be the one weird outlier and, following a couple of stiff lawsuits, a bit thin on the ground to boot. I'm sensing a lot of forumites are nostalgic for a time in the past when you could crawl around sheds full of engines with carte blanche (myself probably included) but this era has ended. Justin Smith is simply experiencing the growing pains that come when this transition occurs and places have to become more safety conscious.


As for the notion that too much helf 'n' safety simply erodes at personal responsibility, I wager that those doing the complaining are probably the same who would never report a 'near miss' or not-so-near miss in the workplace to avoid the hassle and the paper work. To use an analogy, I did an eco-driving course at work a few years back. The instructor said he was glad to be teaching me as I was a relatively new driver. He said the worst people he had to deal with were older male drivers (he mentioned age and gender, so no ageism or sexism on my part here), as they categorically over-rated their driving skills and had the most ingrained bad driving habits. These were guys who were happy to stand on the brakes at every red light, "rev the guts out of it" (his words, not mine) at a green light, and reckon they drove their best when they were 'making progress' at 80 on the motorways. These guys were simply not good drivers as they had terrible situational awareness and a slew of terrible habits that, if nothing else, put premature wear on their vehicles. They also didn't think they needed to be taught anything new about driving, as they new 'proper driving' in their 'proper cars'. By way of sharp contrast, my instructor was simply introducing me to some ideas to help me score a higher mpg by better reading, and anticipating scenarios, in the road ahead. He said that some of his older clientele seemed to take this sort of instruction a bit personally!

Likewise I reckon that those like Justin Smith, are probably nowhere near as personally responsible or safety conscious as they claim. "I know trains, me" will be the order of the day, but really they are a liability and general headache for everybody else.
 

DavidGrain

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I am not going to click Reply to Alanko as it is a long post. I just wish to say that I agree with everything he has said. I have held a driving licence for 50 years driven >500,000 and I do not class myself as a good driver. I have been out with an Institute of Advanced Motorists examiner although not on a formal test. I agree with and accept everything he has said about my driving and have tried to improve.

Fifty years ago I was regarded as a bit of an eccentric buying an automatic car and in my driving career have ever only owned two manual gearbox cars although I have driven many manual cars over the years. I think of automatics as being inherently safer but I used to get comments like 'I wouldn't have an automatic because I like driving'. I like driving that is why my latest car is a hybrid car.
 

reddragon

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The ORR have made it absolutely clear that they intend to significantly up inspections on heritage railways due to recent incidents and the now significant passenger numbers carried on heritage railways compared with 20 years ago.

Their key target is safety processes, training and records.

If we want to 'play' trains, it must be safely and professionally. Lines that fail to take heed will be closed.
 

Journeyman

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Interestingly enough, the "I already know all about railways" excuse for allowing a free-for-all and not requiring robust training and safety systems no longer works. I was talking to a senior member of the ops team at my local heritage railway yesterday. He said in the past, almost all volunteers could be assumed to have a better than average knowledge of railways, but in the last decade or so, a large number of new volunteers have come to this particular railway with no knowledge of rail operations, safety or culture at all, and it makes robust training more important than ever.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I thought volunteering was meant to be a selfless act. ;)

Yes, I know there's an emoji, but...

That might be the case if you're volunteering to save someone's life, but not really if you are looking for something to fill up your weekends away from work. It might be very moral to say that volunteers should be selfless: in practice though, they need to get something out of the experience.

That something might be a feeling that you have done something good (which may also apply to the lifesaver) or it might be increased access to the bits of the railway that fascinate you (as for the OP) or it might be something else. But there's still a need for reward of some sort, or your volunteers will wander off and do something else where they feel more appreciated.
 

AM9

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Yes, I know there's an emoji, but...

That might be the case if you're volunteering to save someone's life, but not really if you are looking for something to fill up your weekends away from work. It might be very moral to say that volunteers should be selfless: in practice though, they need to get something out of the experience. ...
That's fine but not at the expense the safety of others (or even themselves).
... That something might be a feeling that you have done something good (which may also apply to the lifesaver) or it might be increased access to the bits of the railway that fascinate you (as for the OP) or it might be something else. But there's still a need for reward of some sort, or your volunteers will wander off and do something else where they feel more appreciated.
If they can't feel appreciated without flaunting health and safety rules, the heritage railway would be better off without them. It's a very selfish person who feels that their being appreciated overrides the wellbeing of others.
 

DavidGrain

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swanhill41

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I have had a conversation with a friend in the last few days reference the state of the preserved lines,with regards to H&S and also the financial viability of most of the lines
The tsunami of issues that have already been featured in this thread,and the nett effect of them is that the lines are in need of capital investment on a big scale...Quite a few of the lines,some big some small could have problems with operations,unless the failing infrastructure is rebuilt,not repaired...Apparently some lines where they were taken direct from BR ,have not been modified in structural ways..I did not know that a line set up for 50mph is different to that for 25mph...This applies to corner/camber and has a dramatic effect on flange wear of the wheels...And if you have not replaced your track in 40/50 years you have issues with corrosion /decay and failure!.
The railways are in the entertainment business,but along with a more professional mode of operation,less volunteers,more full time employees,the future could be rocky.
Not mentioned how to raise income required etc...Interesting times !?
 

geoffk

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Interestingly enough, the "I already know all about railways" excuse for allowing a free-for-all and not requiring robust training and safety systems no longer works. I was talking to a senior member of the ops team at my local heritage railway yesterday. He said in the past, almost all volunteers could be assumed to have a better than average knowledge of railways, but in the last decade or so, a large number of new volunteers have come to this particular railway with no knowledge of rail operations, safety or culture at all, and it makes robust training more important than ever.
Fair comment but the situation overseas is often very different - an example from Alaska is quoted above.

My two most recent visits to France were to the Baie de la Somme gala weekend in 2013 and the Ajecta open day at Longueville in 2011. The Baie de la Somme visit started at Noyelles, where we saw the general public milling around everywhere across the tracks. Later there was “open house” at St. Valery shed, with locos moving about. The lineside is of course unfenced and I don’t remember seeing any roped-off areas or high viz clothing (perhaps some of the staff wore it). A similar situation applied at Longueville, where the roundhouse was packed with visitors, again without any roped-off areas, and we were able to gain access the day before for photography, before the crowds arrived. In both places, it appeared that everyone used their common sense and I’m not aware of any incidents.

Australia appeared to have an H&S regime similar to ours and we were told off for taking a short cut through the shed at the Thirlmere museum site. Even so, Maldon shed on the 5’ 3” gauge Victorian Goldfields Railway appeared to have an “open house” policy, while many forum members will have seen photos of the Puffing Billy Railway near Melbourne with kids riding with their legs dangling out of the train windows! What I don't know is what percentage of staff at these railways are volunteers.

The UK has chosen the path it’s on and it’s clearly at variance with most of the world. No doubt this goes back to the early days of railways, when it was decreed that all lines must be fenced. Added to that, the Courts seem determined to punish the railways for the unsafe/stupid behaviour of others.
 

QJ

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Fair comment but the situation overseas is often very different - an example from Alaska is quoted above.

My two most recent visits to France were to the Baie de la Somme gala weekend in 2013 and the Ajecta open day at Longueville in 2011. The Baie de la Somme visit started at Noyelles, where we saw the general public milling around everywhere across the tracks. Later there was “open house” at St. Valery shed, with locos moving about. The lineside is of course unfenced and I don’t remember seeing any roped-off areas or high viz clothing (perhaps some of the staff wore it). A similar situation applied at Longueville, where the roundhouse was packed with visitors, again without any roped-off areas, and we were able to gain access the day before for photography, before the crowds arrived. In both places, it appeared that everyone used their common sense and I’m not aware of any incidents.

Australia appeared to have an H&S regime similar to ours and we were told off for taking a short cut through the shed at the Thirlmere museum site. Even so, Maldon shed on the 5’ 3” gauge Victorian Goldfields Railway appeared to have an “open house” policy, while many forum members will have seen photos of the Puffing Billy Railway near Melbourne with kids riding with their legs dangling out of the train windows! What I don't know is what percentage of staff at these railways are volunteers.

The UK has chosen the path it’s on and it’s clearly at variance with most of the world. No doubt this goes back to the early days of railways, when it was decreed that all lines must be fenced. Added to that, the Courts seem determined to punish the railways for the unsafe/stupid behaviour of others.


I was lucky enough to visit both the Puffing Billy Railway and the Victoria Goldfields Railway shortly before they were forced to close down in March as a result of the Coronavirus pandemic.

There was no laissez faire attitude at Maldon (VGR)at the time of my visit. It was professionally run and permission was sought before I ventured into the shed yard to photograph the F class loco (EE 1600 mm gauge 0-6-0 shunting loco similar in appearance to BR class 11) by the turntable. Part of the permission was on the proviso I kept away from certain areas and I was in view of railway staff at all times.

The Puffing Billy Railway (near Melbourne) no longer allows anyone young or old to sit with their legs dangling outside the carriages. Check the safety notice on their website. It was also not permitted to walk off the platform at Belgrave without authorisation.

I think you will find railways overseas (heritage or otherwise) are moving towards similar health and safety regulations to the UK (albeit a bit behind the curve depending on the country). Certainly wandering around wherever you feel like is becoming less tolerated than a few years ago in my experience.

Of course trains abroad are never cancelled, break down in service or run late.
 
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paul1609

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Wittersham Kent
Fair comment but the situation overseas is often very different - an example from Alaska is quoted above.

My two most recent visits to France were to the Baie de la Somme gala weekend in 2013 and the Ajecta open day at Longueville in 2011. The Baie de la Somme visit started at Noyelles, where we saw the general public milling around everywhere across the tracks. Later there was “open house” at St. Valery shed, with locos moving about. The lineside is of course unfenced and I don’t remember seeing any roped-off areas or high viz clothing (perhaps some of the staff wore it). A similar situation applied at Longueville, where the roundhouse was packed with visitors, again without any roped-off areas, and we were able to gain access the day before for photography, before the crowds arrived. In both places, it appeared that everyone used their common sense and I’m not aware of any incidents.

The Baie de La Somme Railway is twinned with the Kent & East Sussex Railway we sometimes take our locos there for their Gala. Its a great railway with really friendly volunteers. Theres probably not that many UK heritage railway volunteers that get to drive and fire on the public road and dual gauge at that. This is my last trip in 2016 and our Norweigan State railways loco 376 coming off the road rail bridge at the entrance to St Vallery.IMAG0508.jpeg
 
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