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East Midlands franchise won by Abellio
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Jozhua
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Out of interest, what are some of the ideas to solve the EMT PRM issues?
Maybe we could see Abellio implement similar strategies if they get the franchise, or Stagecoach could very well be responsible for introducing them once they get another year's extension with no other meaningful improvements to the franchise.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I don't see the current franchise being extended, as the Franchise Agreement needs ripping up and started over, with new intercity trains ordered, and newish regional stock.
So my money's on either Abellio or a State company of some kind like LNER
So my money's on either Abellio or a State company of some kind like LNER
tbtc
Veteran Member
The Government decided on the (long distance) fleet for the ECML/GWML franchises rather than any individual TOC ordering the 800/801s - there's no reason why the DfT couldn't order a batch of (say) 802s and secure a batch of something like midlife 170s for the new EMR franchise, with commitments that the company who won the bid would honour using them for the duration.
For all the criticism of the company, I'm sure Stagecoach would have taken medium/long term decision for the franchise if they'd had more than short-term extension followed by short-term extension.
Robertj21a
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Stagecoach, on the bus side, have a generally good reputation for investing in new stock. As a very professional operator I'm sure they'd only need the necessary longer term commitments from the DfT to enable a stock update on EMR.
StaffsWCML
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They lease the stock anyway so it doesn't really make any odds as far as I can tell.
Any delays are due to the DfTs incompetence and nothing else.
Most these trains needed replacing a while back, at the end of the day with the current franchise arrangements no Train Operator will ever buy their own stock, especially if they are likely to lose the franchise when the DFT move the goal posts again.
Not sure how its unfair to Abellio. They won a bid based on unicorn economics, in a contest where they were the only bidder that was willing to guarantee a pie in the sky pensions commitment.
At some point all of this nonsense will hit the fan. I sincerely hope when these companies are asked by the government to 'top up the fund' these companies don't go bust and pensions are lost. Abellio's UK profit last year was £1.2 million, I honestly don't see how they are in a position to underwrite what they are.
Any delays are due to the DfTs incompetence and nothing else.
Most these trains needed replacing a while back, at the end of the day with the current franchise arrangements no Train Operator will ever buy their own stock, especially if they are likely to lose the franchise when the DFT move the goal posts again.
Not sure how its unfair to Abellio. They won a bid based on unicorn economics, in a contest where they were the only bidder that was willing to guarantee a pie in the sky pensions commitment.
At some point all of this nonsense will hit the fan. I sincerely hope when these companies are asked by the government to 'top up the fund' these companies don't go bust and pensions are lost. Abellio's UK profit last year was £1.2 million, I honestly don't see how they are in a position to underwrite what they are.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Because Abellio won the franchise competition, with the best bid.
So have you seen the bid then, and tested the economics of the bid? If you haven't then you can't make sweeping statements like that.
StaffsWCML
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The only 'compliant' bid by all accounts. Its a sham.
Its basic maths that the bid is unsustainable. A company that made £1.2 million profit in 2018 can not suddenly part underwrite a multi billion pound pension scheme with a huge deficit.
No one can comment on the individual bids. What we do know is the franchise system isn't fit for purpose, and the pensions situation is a huge problem and will continue to be so. Outsourcing of things like that rarely goes well. The government should be guaranteeing the pensions on the railway as they still have underlying control of it.
RDG have repeatedly said the pensions issue needs resolving. Many have raised issues over franchising as it is.
Williams is reviewing the entire franchise system. It is correct and proper that we await the result of that review before awarding more franchises in a broken system.
Abellio should be prevented from any further bids until they run the services they currently have at a decent level. Stagecoach maybe mediocre but Abellio are tragic.
atraindriver
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Kneedown
Established Member
Indeed.
About the only positive thing I can think of if any litigation were to ensue, is that the content of both bids may find it's way into the public domain. I often wondered what the losing bids consisted of for the EMT franchise but this info never saw the light of day.
Personally I just wish they'd get on with it. I need a new uniform!
Class 466
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You obviously haven't travelled on the buses in Ashford then!
Does this imply that today would be the end of the extended standstill period then? (Unless it's extended again of course)
tbtc
Veteran Member
Agreed - whilst I've no problem with privatisation as a concept, I'd be happy for decisions on long term stock changes to be taken by the Government and existing TOCs during the course of a franchise - even if this means binding the next franchise holder with stock that has already been agreed to.
Otherwise we end up in an environment where a TOC orders lots of snazzy new trains at the start of its franchise but then has little incentive to do anything in the later years (especially problematic on TOCs like XC/ EMT/ the AbellioSerco Northern, which kept getting short term extension after short term extension).
I'd have been happy if the Government sat down with the EMT franchise operator at the time when IEP was being planned for the ECML/ GWML to make long term decisions over the future of East Midlands - London services on the MML - rather than passengers having to wait for the next franchise to be announced (and then lots of stock replacement in a short period).
These kind of long term decisions over rolling stock need to be taken separately from the franchise-timetable (where a winning bid might only last five years, but then be extended by a couple of years, then another couple of years, meaning the TOC has no impetus to do anything about train capacity after the first year or so) because the status quo means there are a lot of stagnant franchises.
(and I'm trying to make this point without sounding too much like a fan-boy of any major transport group)
StaffsWCML
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They run one of them. EMT
I am able to use EMT, WMT, LNW and Merseyrail regularly. All of the Abellio ran ones are horrifically bad, also have the misfortune of Scotrail on occasions. I can think of literally nothing positive to say about them.
EMT are very much bang average but their customer satisfaction levels are still amongst the highest out of all TOCs in the UK which tells us all we need to know.
Did they? We know they were the only bidder in the process that made a compliant bid but that doesn't equal "best" in terms of outcomes for passengers.
StaffsWCML
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I would be interested to know what makes Abellio in any way competent on any of the franchises they currently hold? I am struggling.
Their satisfaction levels on most of their franchises are below 80%. The only positive thing I could say is that they sometimes run a few trains.
Their satisfaction levels on most of their franchises are below 80%. The only positive thing I could say is that they sometimes run a few trains.
Stagecoach are my local operator and I think they are quite good. My other local operators are XC (staff ok, trains wearing out) and Northern (Even their refurbed trains look worse than EMTs unrefurbed)
I seem to recall that Sea Containers tried to use GNER money to keep other bits of the business alive so sucked it dry.
This is not the first time Abellio have obtained confidential information about another parties tender ... they had their Limburg contract contract cancelled and awarded to Arriva ... with Abellio executive criminally charged ... here is hoping that nothing went on along those lines again - although available information to date suggests not ... but originally we were told the email was deleted before read, although major doubt has now been cast upon that version of DfT news.
It would seem to imply that. No news means it's undoubtedly been extended again. It's one thing the DfT are 'good' at.
That was a completely different set of (Dutch) people, so I think the link is sketchy at best. As for emails that were deleted before being read, who would be DafT enough to believe that????
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Whatever, Sea Containers as parent could not guarantee the bonds that GNER had lodged with the DfT, and so forfeited the franchise.
Sea Containers later entered bankruptcy.
jw
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Perhaps time to activate the Operator of Last Resort?
Sign the deals for any interim PRM refurbishment, sign the leasing deals for the interim/new rolling stock, develop the EMR brand, then handover when a competition can be completed without any controversy!
Sign the deals for any interim PRM refurbishment, sign the leasing deals for the interim/new rolling stock, develop the EMR brand, then handover when a competition can be completed without any controversy!
Can you name one TOC that you can say something positive about though?
Let me guess, Virgin Trains?
People seem to expect a lot from rail companies, but fail to realise their standards of expectation do not meet reality.
Maybe it's just EMT passengers don't know what they're missing?
Remember, EMT is old fashioned. They haven't changed very much from National Express days of Midland Mainline.
Their systems are old. Their processes are old. The uniform is literally the same as National Express had, just different colours. It's like they literally took the National Express operation from the 90s and carried on with it - 20 years later!
So many customers have only ever known the National Express / Stagecoach operation of the franchise.
To be fair on Stagecoach, they have done an okay job of refurbishing some of their local stock. But as has been said elsewhere, the 222's are, on the whole, scrappy.
Kettledrum
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Strength of performance on other franchises appears to play little part in any company's chances of winning another franchise. Stagecoach had relatively good performance as the incumbent in terms of customer satisfaction and timeliness. Much of the franchising process is driven by finance in terms of subsidy or treasury premiums, or who can make the most outragious promises about the future (irrespective of how unrealistic they turn out to be in future)
So it's not really about best deal for the passengers at all is it?
Rolling stock can be required to be ordered to the Government's exact specification, and mandated to be made available and used to all bidders, so the franchise process adds no value to this.
There doesn't seem to be any infrastructure improvements being delivered as part of this franchise, so no benefit there.
And other comments on this thread have focussed on staff uniforms, and in the past livery changes have been made - not really much added value compared with the huge cost of running the franchising process, so what's the whole point of it?
Maybe , but living along the Boston line through the Central Trains era I can say EMT are a damn site better than what went before
43074
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Which systems and processes are old? Yes EMT are pretty average, but they're reliable and do a good job at getting the basics right, which is probably why the satisfaction scores are where they are. Of course there's always scope for improvement, but I'd rather have that than a TOC like VTEC, who were too focused on the fluffy marketing, "innovation" and PR stories than on sorting out an inconsistent catering offer and the reliability of an increasingly overworked and aging fleet.
Well in any case they will be on the hook up to the amount of their bond commitment. Do we know what that is on EMT? VTEC was £165m I think, and Greater Anglia £280m, so pretty significant numbers.
Good reasonably detailed comment on this issue here https://www.railjournal.com/passeng...ts-pension-terms-for-east-midlands-franchise/
Told from the point of view of Stagecoach so needs to be discounted a bit, but interesting detail anyway. Makes clear that DfT did offer significant protections but Stagecoach did not consider them adequate.
tbtc
Veteran Member
I'm up for criticism of any company but... the fact that the EMT uniform is the same as the old MM uniform (but in different colours) seems a fairly thin criticism to make.
One of the things that people grumble about when a new TOC comes along is that money is being spent on things like signage/ timetables/ staff uniforms are being replaced - I could understand the complaint if EMT staff in 2019 were still forced to wear the same pair of trousers they were allocated under National Express in the 1990s though!
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