TfL fares caps - confused

martin2345uk · 30 Apr 2019

so I went to London over the weekend to support my other half in the marathon.

Used my contactless card to tap in and out of every stop, started in Stratford, used DLR down to island gardens, then into zone one for a bit, back to Stratford, and I see I have been charged £8.20 and £11.10 respectively.

I thought the cap was £7? I checked each time and the readers said “card accepted”..?

RailUK Forums

Clip · 30 Apr 2019

Have you logged into your account to see what your journey history shows?

If you dont have an account register your card now to show your history as £8.20 is a zone 1-3 cap so did you go to greenwich or something instead?

IceAgeComing · 30 Apr 2019

£8.20 is the Zone 1-3 cap; the penalty fare in most places for not tapping out is £10.10 so it might be worth double checking to see that it is £11.10 that you've been charged. It does look like what might have happened is that you've crossed into Zone 3 somewhere (don't think that it would have been in Stratford since that's Zone 2/3 but perhaps if you took a strange route home somewhere) and then missed a tap somewhere so its charged you a penalty fare. If you've got your card registered with them might be worth looking through your journey history and questioning any discrepencies. Its shockingly easy to do: I have a travelcard so never get the penalty fare but at some national rail stations that don't have barriers and awkward oyster reader locations (Charlton is one that comes to mind; especially coming from the Kent direction) I forget to tap out and it records an incomplete journey.

martin2345uk · 30 Apr 2019

Thank you - after checking my journey history it’s become apparent what happened (I didn’t know you check your journey history for a contactless card).

So we went to the ExCel expo on Saturday and the staff there were telling everyone not to touch out due to the crowds and that the system had been changed for today to allow this.

So that journey is showing as incomplete and I’ve been charged £4.10 extra for it, that carried forward to Sunday giving £7 + £4.10 = £11.10

£8.20 is correct for Saturday as we did go into zone three.

IceAgeComing · 30 Apr 2019

Its worth getting into contact with TfL to get that £4.10 back: they're generally pretty good at refunding penalty fares if you have a good explanation for why it happened. Nice to see that everything has been cleared up though!

paddington · 30 Apr 2019

IceAgeComing said:
Its worth getting into contact with TfL to get that £4.10 back: they're generally pretty good at refunding penalty fares if you have a good explanation for why it happened.

Pedant mode: it's not a penalty fare but a maximum fare. TfL website says you can get 3 refunds per calendar month. It may also be refunded automatically - but I don't understand how this works if you don't touch out, as they can't tell where you went!

martin2345uk · 30 Apr 2019

When I go online it tells me I have no eligible fares for a refund, I’m wondering if due to the nature of this one it’s all being done automatically. Will give it 48 hours and see.

Clip · 30 Apr 2019

martin2345uk said:
When I go online it tells me I have no eligible fares for a refund, I’m wondering if due to the nature of this one it’s all being done automatically. Will give it 48 hours and see.

Why wait ? Call them now and get it sorted now - they are good at that sort of thing

M28361M · 30 Apr 2019

From TfL's website:-

When there are major sporting or entertainment events, we may open gates at stations to help with congestion.

On these occasions you might not be able to touch out, so we'll try to complete your journey for you so you're not charged the maximum fare.

If you're due a refund when we automatically complete a journey, it'll be loaded on to your Oyster card when you next touch in on a yellow card reader. If you used contactless (card or device) we'll refund your bank account.

Looks like your trip to ExCel would come under this category. I agree you should wait a couple of days and if still no sign of any refund, contact TfL.

PeterC · 30 Apr 2019

paddington said:
Pedant mode: it's not a penalty fare but a maximum fare. TfL website says you can get 3 refunds per calendar month. It may also be refunded automatically - but I don't understand how this works if you don't touch out, as they can't tell where you went!

If the overall journey pattern for the day suggests that you probably went through that station (eg you started the day there or you touched in later) then they will often pick it up and refund. I have certainly had the fare corrected when I have returned home to find the readers out of use.

Mag_seven · 30 Apr 2019

martin2345uk said:
So we went to the ExCel expo on Saturday and the staff there were telling everyone not to touch out due to the crowds and that the system had been changed for today to allow this.

How does the system "know" you didn't touch out at Excel as opposed to anywhere else?

Taunton · 30 Apr 2019

Mag_seven said:
How does the system "know" you didn't touch out at Excel as opposed to anywhere else?

This is a regular poor practice when a station needs to be cleared. The same happens if the station fire alarms go off, let alone defective readers (on the DLR in my experience at least a couple of times a year). Many/most users never bother to check their usage and never see the fines imposed (and no weasel descriptions of these, in normal language they are known as fines).

Who scoops the revenue for incomplete journey fines on National Rail? The TOC or TfL?

island · 30 Apr 2019

As far as I know it goes to the operator of the station where the one touch was made.

Tetchytyke · 30 Apr 2019

Taunton said:
never see the fines imposed (and no weasel descriptions of these, in normal language they are known as fines)

A TfL penalty fare is eighty quid. It's important to be accurate.

Surreytraveller · 1 May 2019

paddington said:
Pedant mode: it's not a penalty fare but a maximum fare. TfL website says you can get 3 refunds per calendar month. It may also be refunded automatically - but I don't understand how this works if you don't touch out, as they can't tell where you went!

Why only 3 times a month? What if you're unlucky enough to get stitched up more than three times?

Surreytraveller · 1 May 2019

Taunton said:
This is a regular poor practice when a station needs to be cleared. The same happens if the station fire alarms go off, let alone defective readers (on the DLR in my experience at least a couple of times a year). Many/most users never bother to check their usage and never see the fines imposed (and no weasel descriptions of these, in normal language they are known as fines).

Who scoops the revenue for incomplete journey fines on National Rail? The TOC or TfL?

Why can't the readers remain active if the station's being cleared? All that happens is people slow down while they try to tap out

paddington · 1 May 2019

Surreytraveller said:
Why only 3 times a month? What if you're unlucky enough to get stitched up more than three times?

I suppose you'd need to have a very good explanation. If a reader at a station isn't working and doesn't get fixed for 3+ days, and you make the same journey daily then it seems to be smart enough to auto-complete. You'd be very unlucky to encounter broken readers at 3 different stations.

Surreytraveller said:
Why can't the readers remain active if the station's being cleared? All that happens is people slow down while they try to tap out

If people need to get out of the station quickly, you don't want them to slow down at the readers. If you did slow down people from behind would trample over you. The readers may or may not still be active, the staff are just telling everyone not to use them. If you are really escaping from a fire, would you care about £7 at that point in time?

Surreytraveller · 1 May 2019

paddington said:
If people need to get out of the station quickly, you don't want them to slow down at the readers. If you did slow down people from behind would trample over you. The readers may or may not still be active, the staff are just telling everyone not to use them. If you are really escaping from a fire, would you care about £7 at that point in time?

I think you miss my point. If the readers are switched off, people will stand there trying to tap out. Then argue with the staff when they can't tap out. I've seen it happen. This delays people being cleared from a station.

And, people in the ticket hall may not realise that the station is being evacuated, or the reason for it. They may be totally oblivious as to what is going on on the Victoria Line platforms when they've just came up from the Piccadilly Line :rolleyes:

Taunton · 1 May 2019

paddington said:
The readers may or may not still be active, the staff are just telling everyone not to use them. If you are really escaping from a fire, would you care about £7 at that point in time?

So everyone escaping from a recurrence of the Kings Cross fire (hopefully never) would all then get fined £7 after emerging with blackened faces.

It's not just the cost. If you are using Pay As You Go and it just knocks the money off, the next time you come to use it you could unexpectedly find you couldn't get in the station (or bus, with no other means to pay at that point).

We live on the DLR, where apparently the readers were installed where it was convenient for an electricity supply rather than being apparent and in your face like a Tube gateline. Some are up at platform level, others down at street level. The most hidden ones of all are those at London City Airport. We also have various overseas visitors at the house, for whom we keep a couple of Oyster cards, which I give detailed instructions on how to use. Despite this we get innumerable incomplete journey fines on them.

MikeWh · 1 May 2019

Surreytraveller said:
Why only 3 times a month? What if you're unlucky enough to get stitched up more than three times?

Three times a month is the limit to how many times you can self-complete a journey without reference to staff. There is no limit on the number of corrections that can be applied by the helpdesk, as long as they are satisfied as to the reasons.

In the case of station evacuation the readers will still be on (unless there is a complete power cut) but every reader will only register an out touch. So if you really want to touch out you still can, but most people will be more concerned with getting to safety. For events, the usual method of auto complete is to do this when the card touches in at the same station (or a group if several are likely) after the event.

some bloke · 1 May 2019

Tube station staff can easily refund or adjust maximum fares, at least on Oyster.

Surreytraveller · 1 May 2019

MikeWh said:
Three times a month is the limit to how many times you can self-complete a journey without reference to staff. There is no limit on the number of corrections that can be applied by the helpdesk, as long as they are satisfied as to the reasons.

In the case of station evacuation the readers will still be on (unless there is a complete power cut) but every reader will only register an out touch. So if you really want to touch out you still can, but most people will be more concerned with getting to safety. For events, the usual method of auto complete is to do this when the card touches in at the same station (or a group if several are likely) after the event.

I was at the London Marathon a couple of years ago, and the readers weren't able to touch out at Green Park, so ended up having to contact the Helpdesk to sort it out
Obviously it wasn't able to self correct, as I didn't use the Oystercard again that day (as would surely be normal with an event)

Taunton · 1 May 2019

some bloke said:
Tube station staff can easily refund or adjust maximum fares, at least on Oyster.

Provided you know it's there in the first place. And spot it within, I believe, a 28 day limit. And then know if you can, and how, to get it refunded. As every station I regularly use on the DLR is unstaffed and the (recently replaced) ticket machines there cannot show journey history, it's something more than a bit challenging to do.

mrmartin · 1 May 2019

I still don't get the point about automatically closing journeys when readers aren't available for touch out (or in). How does it know to do that ?

Surely it can't look at every single unknown touch out on the TfL network for that time period and automatically close it?

Or is to looking for nearby stations (not fair on those who came further and will get a higher maximum fare) or travel patterns (surely can't work for places like the excel where people only visit once in a blue moon)?

tgrb · 1 May 2019

A couple of times I’ve noticed when I’ve got home I haven’t touched out or not read etc on my oyster, so the next time I’ve gone to town (London) I’ve asked the tfl gateline staff at Paddington and they’ve been very efficient and accommodating at sorting these things out.

Taunton · 2 May 2019

mrmartin said:
I still don't get the point about automatically closing journeys when readers aren't available for touch out (or in). How does it know to do that ?

Surely it can't look at every single unknown touch out on the TfL network for that time period and automatically close it?

Or is to looking for nearby stations (not fair on those who came further and will get a higher maximum fare) or travel patterns (surely can't work for places like the excel where people only visit once in a blue moon)?

No, it doesn't. I travelled Victoria to DLR Crossharbour. For some reason it didn't register my touch out at Tower Hill Underground, although it isn't possible to get out there without using the gates. Five minutes later it registered my touch in at adjacent Tower Gateway as a touch out, despite it being patently impossible to arrive there on the DLR 20 minutes after touching in at Victoria. It then registered my touch out at Crossharbour as a touch in start of a second journey, and fined me for an incomplete journey. I only noticed this a couple of months later when I looked at the journey history in a tube station.

sprunt · 2 May 2019

I always wonder how much revenue they must lose on these occasions as a result of people travelling with a travelcard that covers their starting station but not their destination. As an example, when there are events at Wembley stadium the gates at Wembley park station are often open. I will usually be travelling with an Oyster card with a zones 1-3 travelcard on, so it would be the easiest thing in the world for me to get a free extension on those occasions (I don't, I'm a good boy) and I can't be the only one in such a position - especially if it's a London club playing there. I wonder how much they lost out on through this when Spurs were playing their home games there?

martin2345uk · 3 May 2019

Ended up phoning them up and requesting the refund over the phone which is now in progress!

TfL fares caps - confused

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