Glenn1969
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But it does nothing to solve Castlefield congestion.
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Northern timetable changes May 2019
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
You must use different services from Manchester Airport than I do, as a head count on those waiting to board is certainly in excess of thirty five on those I have seen.
If you've done head counts of passengers waiting to board trains at the airport, why haven't you quoted the results?
Tbtc made it clear that the figure of thirty-five was an average, and that certainly seems a plausible figure to me, in fact I'm surprised it comes to thirty-five. If you only travel in the middle of the day your head counts are bound to be in excess of the average.
My main criticism of tbtc's post is that it infers that the airport branch is solely DMU-operated, whereas 40% of airport departures are actually provided by EMUs. As to DMUs being 'scarce', both Northern and TPE have been short of EMUs just lately, in addition to DMUs.
Extending a service from Manchester Piccadilly to the airport only adds c.15 minutes running time each way, any intermediate stops would presumably be covered by other journeys, and most of the recovery time at the airport would have to be taken at Picc instead.
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I grant you, not a terrible idea there. Might be another case where thinning out the Airport service very slightly, means that a more coherent local service for Gatley etc. can be accommodated once again.
Big assumption is being able to do the required crossing move at Slade Lane twice per hour instead of once per hour today. (Would that reinstate some issues resolved when the Liverpool-Scarborough service crossing the lot at Ardwick was removed?)
I've had a go at calculating loadings myself. The ORR station usage estimates for 2017-18 gives 4,644,526 entries/exits for Manchester Airport, and 19,361 interchanges. Dividing entries/exits by two for entries gives 2,322,263, adding interchanges gives 2,341,624 passengers actually boarding trains. Dividing by an estimated 61,204 train departures per year gives 38.26 passengers boarding per journey. Using the ORR's figures for 2016-17 does bring the result to fractionally below 35, so it is possibly the 2016-17 figures tbtc was using.
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absolutelymilk
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Where did you get the estimated departures per year from?
By counting, from Real Time Trains, the number of departures on Mondays to Saturdays (174) and Sundays (133). So 6x174 plus 133 gives 1,177 departures per week, multiply by 52 weeks in the year makes 61,204, add an extra day for the 365th day of the year (61,378), deduct two for Christmas Day and Boxing Day (61,030). Which isn't quite what I got it to earlier, I see that I had mis-read my scribbles.
So the amended figure for passengers boarding per journey (est.) comes to 38.36.
I’ve been advised that the first trains from New Pudsey to Leeds have been changed.
First train will depart at 0626. Next train will depart at 0708, which is 42 minutes later. This is the first of five trains in under an hour with 4tph in each direction during the day.
The 0655 (0606 Huddersfield to Leeds) appears to have disappeared. Does anyone know what has happened?
First train will depart at 0626. Next train will depart at 0708, which is 42 minutes later. This is the first of five trains in under an hour with 4tph in each direction during the day.
The 0655 (0606 Huddersfield to Leeds) appears to have disappeared. Does anyone know what has happened?
The Calder Valley timetables have been rearranged to allow one train an hour to continue to Chester. This will result in a half hour gap in most hours, with the hour you've highlighted having an even bigger gap.
Travellers from Brighouse keep a train arriving at Leeds at 0704, but it goes via Mirfield and leaves Brighouse 15 minutes later.
Between 7 and 8 the 5 trains are better spaced than they are now.
The removal of this train would create an 80 minute gap between trains at Low Moor, but one of the ex-Manchester trains will now stop there so its calls are now better spaced.
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frodshamfella
Established Member
Your right there are many short haul routes from Liverpool Airport for that I rarely need to go to Manchester at all. But for longhaul its Manchester or London, or via a European hub. However I'm sure many passengers would like a Merseyrail link to the airport itself, but that's another story !!
YorkshireBear
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Big fan of the two tpe South services to Liverpool. The advantage of 13 & 14 as crap as they are is the simple interchange to airport trains. I sense it won't happen as South Yorkshire and humberside will go berserk so it probably doesn't warrant further discussion.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Not sure, but I doubt this would be a show stopper.
The Cleethorpes service is booked to use Piccadilly Platforms 9 - 12 for reversals, in both directions. The eastbound normally has a Down Slow routing from Slade Lane to Piccadilly, then Up Fast from Picc back to Slade Lane (which means it has to cross the Down Fast at Picc throat), and Up Slow from Slade Lane to Stockport. From P13 it could have the exact same route as from P9/10/11/12 (these platforms all have a single lead into the ladder across the throat). An advantage is that it would no longer need to cross the Down Slow on the Airport to Picc leg.
The westbound normally has a Down Fast routing from Stockport to Piccadilly, although the Down Slow is unoccupied from Stockport to Slade Lane at that time. It would have to cross the Up Slow to get to P14, but that could be at Slade Lane, Ardwick or Piccadilly East, whichever would avoid a conflict. There is enough timetable slack for some pathing allowances, so it should be do-able.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Whilst the Cleethorpes service is being discussed, has the route from Stockport to Manchester Victoria, Ordsall Chord, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport ever been officially considered?
Esker-pades
Established Member
That would take far too long, surely. In the 10 minutes it takes to get to Piccadilly from Stockport, your train via Victoria etc. would have barely reached Ashton Moss Junction.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I was just mulling over a different route that would obviate the need for reversals at Manchester Piccadilly when I made that posting. It would enable connections at Manchester Victoria to be more easily made.
An early Northern Hub (then Manchester Hub) concept was to reroute it non-stop via Marple/Ashburys/Philips Park to Victoria thence via the Ordsall Chord to Piccadilly and the Airport.
Killingworth
Established Member
I'm sure it has, and quite quickly discounted.
I agree with Tbtc. The loadings to and from Manchester Airport are usually quite light. People on here assume they're rammed all day long but they're really not. As someone who lives on the line I can attest to this. Even with the Liverpool via Warrington express service to Manchester Airport there is a mass evacuation at Piccadilly - it's only a single stop at Mauldeth Road that stops it being only a dozen or so passengers.
The amount of times I've stood on an absolutely packed platform 13 at Piccadilly and a TPE express service to the Airport stops with only a handful of passengers while passengers wait for services to Mauldeth Road, East Didsbury, Burnage, Gatley and Heald Green and beyond to Wilmslow/Crewe. Arriva must wince as they know where their bread and butter is which is the commuter flows from stations such as these.
In reality, a lot of the TPE and Northern only terminate/start from the Airport because it's the most logical place given there are few turnback facilities at Piccadilly. And secondly, every politician is the north is obsessed by a direct rail link to Manchester Airport - unfortunately it's a golden carrot. The amount of services to the Airport are more a result of circumstance than demand.
As somebody who used to use Mauldeth Road, I agree. And Manchester has pretty poor use of commuter rail within its city boundary.
If it is 8-10tph to the airport, and every service stopped once or twice, possibly not the Scotland - then journey times to the airport would not be that worse, and the local stations would actually have a half-decent service. East Didsbury of course has the tram now too, so there is connectivity to wider South Manchester (if it was actually seamless!)
If it is 8-10tph to the airport, and every service stopped once or twice, possibly not the Scotland - then journey times to the airport would not be that worse, and the local stations would actually have a half-decent service. East Didsbury of course has the tram now too, so there is connectivity to wider South Manchester (if it was actually seamless!)
Class 170101
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The other advantage of terminating at Manchester Airport via Platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly is that the trains don't need to be checked quickly before shunting to sidings - like ATW had to before they went to Manchester Airport.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I suppose that Manchester Airport must be quite happy with what you state above as "secondly"
I understand it is indeed a big selling point of MAG in attracting bigger long haul airlines
Greybeard33
Established Member
Actually 11 TfW services daily still terminate in Piccadilly P13. TfW only has rights for off peak services to go to the Airport.
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Jozhua
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I'm assuming there has still been a reduction in services stopping at 13/14?
If by 'stopping' you actually mean 'terminating' I'm afraid that there are almost as many ex-North Wales services terminating there as ever, and there's now also an hourly Northern service to/from Blackpool North. It's predominantly DMU-operated at the moment, but from 19/5 it goes all-electric (I presume) and extends to/from Hazel Grove.
As to services which call at Piccadilly P13/14 there are of course more than ever, due to the addition of the TPEs from Manchester Airport to Newcastle/Middlesbrough.
faltskog36abba
Member
I have the Manchester hub booklet from 2009 showing the maps of trains being rerouted.One route as you mentioned-and another going through Victoria to either Preston or Liverpool. It takes 8 minutes from Ashburys to Victoria -which is 5 minutes longer than to Piccadilly, But you avoid the congestion on the 2 platform viaduct from Piccadilly platform 14. I know passengers would rather change at Piccadilly -But with more services now serving Victoria and a four track railway down miles platting bank and better connections available I don't understand why this option was dropped.
After the Oldham line trains finished in 2009 there was capacity for these potential diverts via Ashburys however that capacity is gone. All that would happen now is you would be stuck waiting outside of Vic for a platform. Miles Platting bank is now a very busy section of line.
northernchris
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So with just over a week to go until the changes is it looking likely Northern will have enough units to deliver the timetable reliably? The West Yorkshire EMU fleet is stretched as it is, however it looks like the 170 being used on the Leeds - Doncaster peak extras will cease and the pacer being used on the triangle in the morning peak is being reallocated. I've also seen that the 319s could be in short supply with the possibility of the Preston - Manchester Victoria service being DMU operated (although I'm not sure if timings will permit this.)
There's been a few cancellations lately due to lack of units, particularly on the Leeds - Nottingham / Lincoln services presumably caused by a shortage of 158s. With these supposedly operating the Manchester Airport - Barrow / Windermere services, plus the extra units required on Calder Valley and the new Sheffield - Gainsborough service it doesn't look too promising until the 195s and 331s start to enter service
There's been a few cancellations lately due to lack of units, particularly on the Leeds - Nottingham / Lincoln services presumably caused by a shortage of 158s. With these supposedly operating the Manchester Airport - Barrow / Windermere services, plus the extra units required on Calder Valley and the new Sheffield - Gainsborough service it doesn't look too promising until the 195s and 331s start to enter service
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