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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Railperf

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Well I’ll not argue with figures. I just thought the 230’s main selling point was it’s superior acceleration. But it seems it’s worse than the 150’s. I shall time a 150 & a 153 between the same two points for as close to 1.3 miles as I can next time I get the chance, for comparison.
There are plenty of mileposts to take measurements to.
Clearly the acceleration is ok. Nothing in the league if say a class 345 which can do 0-80mph in 57 secs and 3/4 mile.
The 345's do 60mph in 36 seconds and 0,328 miles. So 1.3 miles in approx 1 min 37 seconds as opposed to 2mins 2 secs for the Class 230 and 2min 9 sec for a 153.
 
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Railperf

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Well I’ll not argue with figures. I just thought the 230’s main selling point was it’s superior acceleration. But it seems it’s worse than the 150’s. I shall time a 150 & a 153 between the same two points for as close to 1.3 miles as I can next time I get the chance, for comparison.
Out of interest what sort of performance gain were you hoping for - in terms of time saved between stations?
 

JonathanH

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I know it's operationally convenient to terminate at Ridgmont, but as there's nothing there (when the heritage centre is not open) they need to think about telling people at Woburn Sands so they can at least sit in the pub for an hour. Tipping people out there could well lead to cases of hypothermia...

That isn't going to work if the crew only decide to declare a failure when it gets to Ridgmont - we arrived at 2040, already late from having to reset at Bletchley before departure. It was about 2047 by the time we were asked to wait for the next train - so a wait of just over 30 minutes - absolutely not ideal especially as it wasn't that warm last night - but not sure what else they could have done other than not run it from Bletchley in the first place.
 

Bletchleyite

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Re the TfW units, the Marston Vale set accelerated respectably (better than any 15x) with one engine out if that's any guide. The lost time was due to level crossing issues and slow doors.
 

Bletchleyite

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That isn't going to work if the crew only decide to declare a failure when it gets to Ridgmont - we arrived at 2040, already late from having to reset at Bletchley before departure. It was about 2047 by the time we were asked to wait for the next train - so a wait of just over 30 minutes - absolutely not ideal especially as it wasn't that warm last night - but not sure what else they could have done other than not run it from Bletchley in the first place.

I think the decision to declare a failure needed making earlier. Or assuming the defect wasn't one making running in service dangerous, to have run in service back to Woburn Sands for anyone wishing it. Or if really stuck, just to go straight to rail replacement, i.e. to call a taxi or two immediately on declaring a failure; there are lots of private hire cars in MK and one could have been obtained very quickly at most times of day or night.
 

Clip

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I think the decision to declare a failure needed making earlier. Or assuming the defect wasn't one making running in service dangerous, to have run in service back to Woburn Sands for anyone wishing it. Or if really stuck, just to go straight to rail replacement, i.e. to call a taxi or two immediately on declaring a failure; there are lots of private hire cars in MK and one could have been obtained very quickly at most times of day or night.

Oh come along Neil between this and the hyperbole of someone contracting hypothermia you really are making a mountain out of a molehill - you were not the one on the train so how you can even think you can remotely asses the situation from the comfort of your office chair I simply do not know.
 

kieron

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Out of interest what sort of performance gain were you hoping for - in terms of time saved between stations?
Adrian Shooter once said:

"They have a maximum speed of 60mph, but they have acceleration which is much more rapid than some of the older DMUs - well, certainly the Pacers or Class 150s, things like that."

Perhaps he meant "so long as the train rarely gets above 30mph or so in normal use". Equally, perhaps sw1ller didn't understand it in that way.

Oh, and this presentation says that the driver shouldn't take full power at first because of the chance of wheelspin.
 

big all

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Adrian Shooter once said:

"They have a maximum speed of 60mph, but they have acceleration which is much more rapid than some of the older DMUs - well, certainly the Pacers or Class 150s, things like that."

Perhaps he meant "so long as the train rarely gets above 30mph or so in normal use". Equally, perhaps sw1ller didn't understand it in that way.

Oh, and this presentation says that the driver shouldn't take full power at first because of the chance of wheelspin.
that can mean take 6 seconds to reach full power rather than whack it open or perhaps 8-10mph before full power if slippery conditions expected
 

Mikey C

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Watching a video of that unit, was surprised that some parts of the interior seem brand new while other parts look almost untouched from their LU days. The ends of each carriage look very D78 ish, not just the longitudinal seating, but also the curvy grab rails above them and by the doors!
 

jimm

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Watching a video of that unit, was surprised that some parts of the interior seem brand new while other parts look almost untouched from their LU days. The ends of each carriage look very D78 ish, not just the longitudinal seating, but also the curvy grab rails above them and by the doors!

It's not a surprise - Vivarail has said from day 1 that customers could specify whatever interior they wanted - from leaving the Underground layout untouched to stripping the whole lot out back to the bare metal shell and replacing it in its entirety, adding toilets, air conditioning, etc.
 

Clip

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It's not a surprise - Vivarail has said from day 1 that customers could specify whatever interior they wanted - from leaving the Underground layout untouched to stripping the whole lot out back to the bare metal shell and replacing it in its entirety, adding toilets, air conditioning, etc.


And when you are looking for the cheapest solution to the problem then keeping it gets the units in quicker too
 

ChrisEL

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Went for a ride on this today (230004 on the 10.55 from Bedford and back on the 12.01 from Bletchley) - thanks to Bletchleyite for the diagram info!

I can only echo the mostly positive comments of others. After having travelled to Bedford in the fairly sterile environment of a 700 it was nice to have an interior tailored to the route with the information panels for each station and the artwork by a local artist around around the toilet, the airline seats were perfectly OK with decent legroom (they're not all aligned with the windows, but then again lots of people won't necessarily care about that, particularly as so many of us spend the journey looking at our phones), and it definitely does sound as much like an EMU as a DMU no matter which coach you're in.

The only slight negatives would be the PA system, which wasn't very audible, and the speed of the doors, as others have noted. I also felt the outside door light wasn't particularly bright so that I wasn't sure whether the door was ready to open or not, but that could just be me.

Overall I think these are really nice units which are very well suited to their purpose.
 

Chris125

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Do you think the current 60 mph limit has something to do with Vivarail using the D78`s existing running line spec/certification which means they are good to run on the main network at 60 mph. And if they wanted to run at higher speeds say 80 mph they would face a drawn out new round of expensive testing and certification? Not sure I understand why higher speeds would make the 230`s less efficient if their wheels are larger than a Voyager.

That might be a factor, but IIRC the bogies are specifically for metro rolling stock and aren't designed for speeds above 60mph.
 

hwl

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That might be a factor, but IIRC the bogies are specifically for metro rolling stock and aren't designed for speeds above 60mph.
Suspension is probably only designed for 60mph. The bogies were replaced when they were last refurbished.
 

DarloRich

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Went for a ride on this today (230004 on the 10.55 from Bedford and back on the 12.01 from Bletchley) - thanks to Bletchleyite for the diagram info!

I can only echo the mostly positive comments of others. After having travelled to Bedford in the fairly sterile environment of a 700 it was nice to have an interior tailored to the route with the information panels for each station and the artwork by a local artist around around the toilet, the airline seats were perfectly OK with decent legroom (they're not all aligned with the windows, but then again lots of people won't necessarily care about that, particularly as so many of us spend the journey looking at our phones), and it definitely does sound as much like an EMU as a DMU no matter which coach you're in.

The only slight negatives would be the PA system, which wasn't very audible, and the speed of the doors, as others have noted. I also felt the outside door light wasn't particularly bright so that I wasn't sure whether the door was ready to open or not, but that could just be me.

Overall I think these are really nice units which are very well suited to their purpose.

The pa is perfectly good and a million times better than the silence we get in the 150/153!

Passnegers not familiar with the route often have no idea where they are!
 

47550

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Hi
Can anyone tell me which unit was out an about today please. Still 004 or has it been swapped out now ?
Thanks
 

Bletchleyite

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Hi
Can anyone tell me which unit was out an about today please. Still 004 or has it been swapped out now ?
Thanks

005 worked the 1736 off BLY. Bog out of order (are CETs reliable on any stock) and the usual slow doors (still causing late running but only by a couple of minutes) as well as the odd rattle (mostly from the light diffusers), but otherwise a positive experience again, I kept forgetting I was on a DMU. The more I think about these, the more they feel like FLIRTs on the cheap, which is just what a branch line needs.

There was some spirited acceleration (on all 4 engines, presumably) out of Fenny and Ridgmont, to the extent of knocking a bike flying - the performance off the mark is easily as good as the best EMUs out there. Shame the doors lost about 30 seconds per stop.

Another set was out on the ECS proving run though I didn't see which one. The other diagram was the 153, which with no desire to spend 2 and a half hours in Bedford was my chariot home - incredibly dated and noisy in comparison.
 

Jozhua

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I had a look at a powerpoint someone posted further up the page mentioning the 230 can use 25kv overhead to charge batteries and presumably run the train at the same time.

If this is the case, there are a lot of places they could be quite ideal! Pacer/Sprinter replacements for commuter routes around Manchester could utilise these, perhaps the line from Victoria to Wigan North Western?
 

big all

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they have no pantograph or overhead connection at present what so ever so any reference to any voltage is via third rail or shore supply only
other systems require further equipment that at present an option not fully available but with costing an option as a possible choice
 
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GusB

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they have no pantograph or overhead connection at present what so ever so any reference to any voltage is via third rail or shore supply only
other systems require further equipment
That doesn't mean that a pantograph cannot be installed at some point in the future, though. I don't have any links to hand, but I'm sure in one of his talks Adrian Shooter mentioned that it didn't really matter where the supply came from. I would assume there would have to be some sort of transformer set-up required if it were to take "raw" 25kV AC, though.

I've been following the progress of this project from the start, and I'm glad to see that a few units have made it into service. I'm also grateful to @Bletchleyite and others for their thoughts but I'm somewhat disappointed that I have yet to hear the sound of hat-munching from the more salubrious parts of Cheshire. ;)

It has always amused me that, after 260 pages of discussion on this forum, some people still cannot see beyond the "clapped out former metro unit that can only do 60mph" mentality. The D-stock was a platform that was recently retired from service and surplus to requirements. It was a platform which could be experimented on without removing units from revenue-earning service. What we have is a train that that can be fitted with various traction packages according to the needs of the operator, and can be re-configured according to changing needs without too much effort. The D-stock was a convenient vessel. There's nothing to stop the same technology being applied to a brand new train.

This is Great British Garden Shed Engineering at its best. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, either - this is what we're good at. Why should all the best technological solutions have to come from a multinational conglomorate?
 

Bantamzen

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That doesn't mean that a pantograph cannot be installed at some point in the future, though. I don't have any links to hand, but I'm sure in one of his talks Adrian Shooter mentioned that it didn't really matter where the supply came from. I would assume there would have to be some sort of transformer set-up required if it were to take "raw" 25kV AC, though.

I've been following the progress of this project from the start, and I'm glad to see that a few units have made it into service. I'm also grateful to @Bletchleyite and others for their thoughts but I'm somewhat disappointed that I have yet to hear the sound of hat-munching from the more salubrious parts of Cheshire. ;)

It has always amused me that, after 260 pages of discussion on this forum, some people still cannot see beyond the "clapped out former metro unit that can only do 60mph" mentality. The D-stock was a platform that was recently retired from service and surplus to requirements. It was a platform which could be experimented on without removing units from revenue-earning service. What we have is a train that that can be fitted with various traction packages according to the needs of the operator, and can be re-configured according to changing needs without too much effort. The D-stock was a convenient vessel. There's nothing to stop the same technology being applied to a brand new train.

This is Great British Garden Shed Engineering at its best. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, either - this is what we're good at. Why should all the best technological solutions have to come from a multinational conglomorate?

Like you, I've been following this project with development albeit, I will readily admit, with more than a tinge of cynicism. This was mainly born out of VivaRail's less than subtle attempts to promote the 230s as an ideal "new" replacement for Northern's Pacer stock. The 230 was never going to be able to replace even a fraction of this, and now that they have dialled down their expectations the work around the traction will indeed help drive future development for new stock. Indeed I'll readily admit that it seems to have got Porterbrook moving into similar work on the 769s (which bizarrely is almost universally despised on this forum despite being another 230 type project).

However DEMU technology has a very finite lifespan, and battery technology still has some way to go to reach a stage where it could compete with OHLE based traction. So whilst these new traction types are units might find their way onto some limited routes, they should by no means yet be considered the replacement technology as yet, nor should they be used to delay or withhold plans to wire more parts of our network (Grayling, I'm looking at you). The prime objective for our rail network should still be to replace as much diesel traction as possible, as soon as possible & not hang onto the hope that the current battery projects suddenly take a giant leap forward.
 

D365

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Also;
I have just had a thought about the maintenance cycles on these motors now they're being operated very differently to before, it will be interesting to see what happens with motor brush wear.

Brush wear? They're AC motors.
 

D365

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I had a look at a powerpoint someone posted further up the page mentioning the 230 can use 25kv overhead to charge batteries and presumably run the train at the same time.

If this is the case, there are a lot of places they could be quite ideal! Pacer/Sprinter replacements for commuter routes around Manchester could utilise these, perhaps the line from Victoria to Wigan North Western?

Could you link me to the post in question please?
 

Bletchleyite

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It has always amused me that, after 260 pages of discussion on this forum, some people still cannot see beyond the "clapped out former metro unit that can only do 60mph" mentality. The D-stock was a platform that was recently retired from service and surplus to requirements. It was a platform which could be experimented on without removing units from revenue-earning service. What we have is a train that that can be fitted with various traction packages according to the needs of the operator, and can be re-configured according to changing needs without too much effort. The D-stock was a convenient vessel. There's nothing to stop the same technology being applied to a brand new train.

Is not that brand new train the venerable Stadler FLIRT or perhaps GTW/WINK? I have compared the D-train to it in concept above, but while it doesn't have the "power module" it does have big similarities in terms of modular power sources and flexible interior layout, as well as the idea of giving a branch line something specifically designed for it rather than the traditional hand-me-down old rubbish.
 

simple simon

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However DEMU technology has a very finite lifespan, and battery technology still has some way to go to reach a stage where it could compete with OHLE based traction. So whilst these new traction types are units might find their way onto some limited routes, they should by no means yet be considered the replacement technology as yet, nor should they be used to delay or withhold plans to wire more parts of our network (Grayling, I'm looking at you). The prime objective for our rail network should still be to replace as much diesel traction as possible, as soon as possible & not hang onto the hope that the current battery projects suddenly take a giant leap forward.

For short distances and regenerative braking, capacitors are far better, especially when absorbing braking energy and (unlike batteries) can be expected to last the lifetime of the train.

I've made another video of the 230 D-Train - this time a comparison between these trains as D-Stock / D-Train - slowing down for stations, accelerating away afterwards, arriving at a terminus station. At present this film is unlisted on YouTube - that will change when I get around to adding the video text.

What is very apparent is just how much slower these trains were on the District line. I wonder if this is because the line speed was only 45mph? (which is quite a bit slower than the Central line, for instance).



Next, a comparison film showing full station to station rides.
 

driver_m

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Now that they’re finally in service and seem to pretty well regarded on here by those who’ve used them, have to say that Adrian Shooter deserves quite a bit of praise for sticking with a project that could have badly damaged his reputation, especially after the unit catching fire. The fact he has seen it through and it still has huge potential with other sources of power is a credit to him. There haven’t been that many managers in the private era who have become well regarded. (Looking at you Corbett and Coucher!) so fair play for the work on Chiltern and Vivarail.
 

craigybagel

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I came to try out the 230 today. On closer inspection it appears to be closer in appearance to a road going coach then an ex London Underground unit, and I have my doubts as to its suitability for meeting PRM requirements


The provision of seat belts was also a rather unusual sight, which doesn't suggest much of a vote of confidence in the ride characteristics. However, to Network Rail's credit, despite being a rather little known backwater the ride on their A421 line was actually rather smooth.


One big positive was the all round visibility, a very nice throwback to the DMUs of yore.

As a conductor, I was a little worried that LNWR seem to have snuck in some DOO operations on the quiet, and whilst the driver was extremely friendly, no effort was made to check my ticket.

So overall, I'd suggest a rather mixed bag, but I'll be interested to see how it pans out on other routes.
 

class387

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Seems like the 230 diagram has been cancelled the whole day today. Does anyone know if it is likely to be back out tomorrow?
 
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