First Trip On A Desiro

RichJF · 3 May 2019

I'll do a comparison of the 700 vs the 377 as I live on a line where we get both. We get all the 377 variants down here (East Grinstead). I've not been on a 450/444 regularly enough to do a 1st hand comparison.

Desiro City is nice but the aircon/lighting are way too harsh & the ride quality is bouncy to say the least. Also I hear the whee/bogie noise a lot more. Having said that the 700 can brake and accelerate a lot quicker than the 377 and swallows up a crowd more.
377 (older models) have the nice 2+2 table layout which is very comfortable, with arm rests & the interior actually looks quite nice. I tend to find the 377's moderate the temperature inside slightly better and I'm not listening to constant air con hum.

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387star · 3 May 2019

377s have tacky bits of rubber sealing gaps between fittings or around the glass units trying to prevent rattles

The inner bits are horrid almost impossible to walk through the outer bits are bliss

Mostly southern turn the 377s out to a pretty good standard

387star · 3 May 2019

(Currently on a refreshed 377/1 with a much darker perhaps more durable vestibule carpet)

61653 HTAFC · 3 May 2019

I've found that 20m Desiros seem to ride rougher than 23m ones, though that could be down to me being more used to them. Only ever had a handful of long runs on Electrostars but they seemed reasonable. For me nothing comes close to the roughness of Mk4s.

pompeyfan · 3 May 2019

I think people who moan about the ride of the desiros should point the finger more at Network Rail than Siemens. There’s a stretch of track near me with constant TSRs, and when it’s line speed the 377s throw you all over the place, where as the 450s seem to just rock slightly.

I think this discussion is very subjective and it’s very similar to having an iPhone v Samsung discussion, you’ll never convince a fanboy of the opposite camp that yours is better.

Beemax · 3 May 2019

I think for most pax, the difference between 2+2 and 3+2 seating is far more significant than any subtle differences in the ride or noise profiles.

Bletchleyite · 3 May 2019

Dougal2345 said:
But I think by raising the 'noise floor', if that's the correct term, it also makes everything else noisier - passengers talk in raised voices to be heard, no-one bothers to stop their mobile bleeping or whatever - whereas with the more library-like feel of the Electrostar, the first passenger who breaks that silence realises that he's making an exhibition of himself...

I've not noticed this. All coaches on commuter-time LNR services are de-facto quiet coaches and woe betide anyone who infringes. But at off-peak times the antisocial behaviour (e.g. playing phones out loud) is no different to any other train. Last time I told someone to pack it in (in the quiet coach!) was a GWR HST. The time before was a Pendolino, again in the quiet coach. At least the Desiro white noise drowns it out.

AM9 · 3 May 2019

RichJF said:
I'll do a comparison of the 700 vs the 377 as I live on a line where we get both. We get all the 377 variants down here (East Grinstead). I've not been on a 450/444 regularly enough to do a 1st hand comparison.

Desiro City is nice but the aircon/lighting are way too harsh & the ride quality is bouncy to say the least. Also I hear the whee/bogie noise a lot more. Having said that the 700 can brake and accelerate a lot quicker than the 377 and swallows up a crowd more.
377 (older models) have the nice 2+2 table layout which is very comfortable, with arm rests & the interior actually looks quite nice. I tend to find the 377's moderate the temperature inside slightly better and I'm not listening to constant air con hum.

The Desiro Citys' AC just works. Apart from the odd car failure, (not experienced by me though), the system worked all last summer. I've been on quite a few Electrostars where they can get quite stuffy on a hot day.
One advantage of the through gangway design is that heating/cooling issues are less of a problem as adjacent working car systems help balance out the difference.
As for the ride, they handle the worst track on the southern MML, between Hendon and the Elstree Tunnels, quite well, and at 100mph. The 377/2s, 377/5s and even the brand new 387s would make violent sideways lurches on the same section of track.
As far as seating type, density and layout go, they are specific to the service that they are procured/leased for so saying that a 377/7 or a 700 has more cramped or firmer seating is nothing to do with the train design and is all down to the fit out being designed to be suitable for the passenger volume and journey type. For example, a 350/1 or 350/3 is appropriate for through journeys from Euston to Birmingham or through the Trent valley and beyond, but wouldn't cut it on Thameslink where capacities in excess of 1500 per 12 car train and rapid ingress/egress are essential for the service to deliver.

Bletchleyite · 3 May 2019

AM9 said:
wouldn't cut it on Thameslink where capacities in excess of 1500 per 12 car train and rapid ingress/egress are essential for the service to deliver.

I'd argue the 700s should have had the same layout as Crossrail or the S-stock - facing bays for those going a long way, longitudinal for short journeys.

AM9 · 3 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I'd argue the 700s should have had the same layout as Crossrail or the S-stock - facing bays for those going a long way, longitudinal for short journeys.

That might slightly improve capacity and loading/unloading, but the problem with significantly different seating is that those who are making the longer journeys are just as likely to be standing from the core to St Albans looking at the shorter journey passengers sitting in the seats that theoretically they should be sitting in. I haven't used the 345s in the peak, but somebody here might be able to confirm whether that happens now in the evening peak at Liverpool St..

SWRtrain_fan · 3 May 2019

Personally I really like Desiros. They are very smooth and the fairly loud air con actually makes the train sound very quiet. I also love the 'UFO' noise made by all Desiros when accelerating/decelerating. I haven't been on a Electrostar in a long time.

Buggleskelly · 3 May 2019

As a frequent traveller on both the 360's and the 357's, I'd say the 357 offers the better ride quality. They seem to be quieter inside as well, no noisy air-con like the 360. To date, the 357 is the ONLY Electrostar class I have been on since their introduction nearly 20 years ago, not sure how they compare with the other classes. I have, on occasion had to use a 450 and a 444 to get me to and from the Farnborough Airshow in the past. The experience on those is no different to the 360.

Sad Sprinter · 4 May 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
700s are essentially updates of the desiro as are electrostars updates of the networker

I've heard this before several times over the years-that Electrostars were taken from a British Rail design? Is this really true? Are the Electrostars basically a rehased version of the class 471?

700007 · 4 May 2019

I am Team Desiro here. Whilst the air con can be noisy, as someone said upthread you get used to it very quickly. They are generally quiet trains despite their very weird - although I quite like it - noise they make during acceleration and deceleration. Comfortable units that aren't over complicated and got the passenger atmosphere right.

I do find them smooth and honestly have been happy with them since introduction, and am looking forward to many more years of riding them.

Buggleskelly said:
As a frequent traveller on both the 360's and the 357's, I'd say the 357 offers the better ride quality. They seem to be quieter inside as well, no noisy air-con like the 360. To date, the 357 is the ONLY Electrostar class I have been on since their introduction nearly 20 years ago, not sure how they compare with the other classes. I have, on occasion had to use a 450 and a 444 to get me to and from the Farnborough Airshow in the past. The experience on those is no different to the 360.

Funny you say that as I personally find those 360s smoother than the 357s. Don't get me wrong, I do really like the 357s - up there for one of my favourite Electrostars because they have lasted really well and it is hard to believe they're already 20 years old. However they have this loud noise (I think something to do with the pantograph and electricity supply) which on particular units can be really annoying over a journey that takes more than 15 minutes. I also don't find them smooth and had one a month or so back that was rocking around so much it genuinely felt like the wheels were going to pop off!

AM9 · 4 May 2019

Sad Sprinter said:
I've heard this before several times over the years-that Electrostars were taken from a British Rail design? Is this really true? Are the Electrostars basically a rehased version of the class 471?

The Desiro Citys and Aventras are effectively new designs rather than updates. Indeed, the Desiro City has a differfent cross section, tapering towards the cantrail, unlike the Desiro UK profile.
Both types are by design, intended to be much more energy efficient, have higher acceleration and braking performance, and address many of the shortcomings of their respective predecessor ranges of multiple units particularly when operating on routes with very high passenger loads. Features of both designs include:

elimination of virtually all steel in the body construction in favour of aluminium and other low mass materials to give significantly lighter body weight
lightweight bogies such as the Siemens SF7000 and the Flexx-eco bogies both with in-board frames
higher power traction systems and on longer trains, provision for unaided recovery in the event of partial failures
single through-gangwayed units reducing space taken by additional driving cabs
wide gangways allowing even distribution throughout the train
reduced seating* to provide better conditions when crush loaded by increasing space for standing and free movement along the train
more door-opening space and faster opening doors to reduce dwell times at stations

Most of the above changes are in step with 'commuter' train developments in other countries and given that both companies are competing for the same customer train requirements, it is not surprising that the designs have so much in common.
* some versions will have conventional 2+3 seating as requested by cutomers, e.g. the class720s for GA.

Mikey C · 4 May 2019

I find both the Desiro UK and Electrostar to be decent trains. I don't travel on them regularly enough to say which ones I prefer.

I much prefer the 345 to the 700, though a lot of that is down to how they've been specced. I don't like the recent return of sliding doors (which started with the 376s and 395s) as they ruin the interior by the doors when compared to plug doors. And look old fashioned outside. Yes the doors on Desiro UKs are rather slow, but surely Siemens could have designed a plug door which is fast AND reliable, as the 700s and 345s operate similarly intensive services and the 345s have gone back to plug doors.

CM · 4 May 2019

Mikey C said:
I find both the Desiro UK and Electrostar to be decent trains. I don't travel on them regularly enough to say which ones I prefer.

I much prefer the 345 to the 700, though a lot of that is down to how they've been specced. I don't like the recent return of sliding doors (which started with the 376s and 395s) as they ruin the interior by the doors when compared to plug doors. And look old fashioned outside. Yes the doors on Desiro UKs are rather slow, but surely Siemens could have designed a plug door which is fast AND reliable, as the 700s and 345s operate similarly intensive services and the 345s have gone back to plug doors.

I've always found the sliding doors on the 700s makes them look like a modern day Mk3 based EMU, never a bad thing imho

AM9 · 4 May 2019

Mikey C said:
I find both the Desiro UK and Electrostar to be decent trains. I don't travel on them regularly enough to say which ones I prefer.

I much prefer the 345 to the 700, though a lot of that is down to how they've been specced. I don't like the recent return of sliding doors (which started with the 376s and 395s) as they ruin the interior by the doors when compared to plug doors. And look old fashioned outside. Yes the doors on Desiro UKs are rather slow, but surely Siemens could have designed a plug door which is fast AND reliable, as the 700s and 345s operate similarly intensive services and the 345s have gone back to plug doors.

The 345 doors are narrower and there are three pairs per car. The 700s are 20m long owing to restrictions on the route through the core so it is only possible to have two pairs of doors. They are however very fast in opening and closing, - indeed much faster than the 345s' doors. I don't see any aesthetic issues with sliding doors on either the 700s (or the 395s or 8XXs), but even though the 700s don't have the sealing feature that the Hitachi trains do, so far the doors do not move or make any noise form the pressure wave when two trains with a closing speed of 200mph, pass on adjacent tracks. So to my reckoning, there are no negatives with the doors. Another advantage with sliding doors is that they stay in gauge however they fail. Not so with plug doors which usually calls for physical intervention before a train can move, which would cause chaos in the core.

Bletchleyite · 4 May 2019

AM9 said:
The Desiro Citys and Aventras are effectively new designs rather than updates. Indeed, the Desiro City has a differfent cross section, tapering towards the cantrail, unlike the Desiro UK profile.

The 380 does, but only the 380. The 700s and 707s returned to a square profile near identical to the 350. The big visible body difference from Desiro to Desiro City is there being two very large windows between the doors instead of four smaller ones, but the classic Desiro "thing" of barely having two windows the same size in a coach continues - must be a nightmare for spares departments!

43096 · 4 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The 380 does, but only the 380. The 700s and 707s returned to a square profile near identical to the 350. The big visible body difference from Desiro to Desiro City is there being two very large windows between the doors instead of four smaller ones, but the classic Desiro "thing" of barely having two windows the same size in a coach continues - must be a nightmare for spares departments!

Those two large windows are a carryover from the 380s. The 380s are a sort of half way between Desiro and Desiro City in much the same way the same builder’s SNCB Type 18/19s are a halfway between the EuroSprinter and Vectron designs.

Bletchleyite · 4 May 2019

43096 said:
Those two large windows are a carryover from the 380s. The 380s are a sort of half way between Desiro and Desiro City in much the same way the same builder’s SNCB Type 18/19s are a halfway between the EuroSprinter and Vectron designs.

I wonder why the 380 has a Bombardier-style tapered body profile and no other Desiros do?

43096 · 4 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I wonder why the 380 has a Bombardier-style tapered body profile and no other Desiros do?

It’s a good question. It’s not as if the 380s are the only 23m length Desiro variant as the 185s and 444s fit that as well. It would be interesting to see a 23m Desiro City design.

AM9 · 4 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The 380 does, but only the 380. The 700s and 707s returned to a square profile near identical to the 350. The big visible body difference from Desiro to Desiro City is there being two very large windows between the doors instead of four smaller ones, but the classic Desiro "thing" of barely having two windows the same size in a coach continues - must be a nightmare for spares departments!

OK, thanks for that. I've assumed that the 700s did taper. Maybe it's the sharp tuck-in above the sole bar that gave me that impression.

Chiltern006 · 4 May 2019

Personally, it’s a mixed bag. Electrostars have tables (376s don’t as they are metro) so if you are on a long journey, you can sit back & relax. I use the Class 700s for Thameslink and I always sit in the Declassified first class section due to the lack of tables, which is the same with the 707 and 717. The other desiros are rather pleasant and nice to ride on.

6Gman · 4 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I've not noticed that.

I have. Ride was never an issue in the past but recently we have noticed really bad riding on two or three occasions.

Almost as if the bogies are getting as tatty as the interiors.

ForTheLoveOf · 4 May 2019

I have to say, despite having commuted on both Desiros, Electrostars and Turbostars, as well as having extensive other experience of those types, no particular class of Desiro, Electrostar or Turbostar stands out as providing a particularly brilliant or awful ride, and it is certainly too difficult to assess this fairly over different routes when each has different track faults. What is undeniably noticeable is the substantial worsening of the ride quality if you sit anywhere near the bogies. It's why I'll actively avoid the carriage ends on any unit and count the windows so as to get the most central free sheet.

In terms of seating, I used to like the Turbostar original seats (as found in, e.g. XC Turbostars) particularly much, but I now find them unergonomic for my body. By comparison, Desiro seats have to be some of the best out there for balancing comfort, support and ergonomics. Just a shame about the legroom on all of these units at facing or table seats. Impossible to sit comfortably if there's anyone opposite you.

The air conditioning on Desiros is very effective and the background noise they provide is actually most welcome to break awkward silences. I agree with those who say that Electrostars sometimes have an awful buzzing. I can't put my finger on the coach it's most prevalent in, but it's a high pitched thing that I really detest during dwells when there's no other noise to cloak it.

Ethano92 · 4 May 2019

Similar to the comment above, I spent the day today on 377s old and new, 378s and 450s in terms of relevant stock to this thread.

In terms of ride quality, Desiros essentially float although sometimes sway a bit harshly whereas Electrostars can jault. Neither is worse and I don't think these are differences the general public would actively notice and comment on. I found both units comfortable enough.

In terms of sound proofing the Desiros win by a landslide, despite the loud air units the ride was quiet and that was the only thing I heard whereas on the 377s I was on there were squeaky bogies, you could here the traction motor, there were a few rattles too. Again nothing I think the general public would actually notice or care about but there nonetheless. I too really didn't care.

One thing I will say the desiro wins on is the sense of tidiness. The walls are more continuous without lots of panels and the 450 generally felt more spacious than the 2+2 377 despite its 3+2 layout.

Still, Electrostars win in terms of their PIS, far more reliable, clear and informative from my experience whereas a lot of Desiros I get on only seem to want to share the time or what carriage you're in the entire trip.

jon0844 · 4 May 2019

AM9 said:
...even though the 700s don't have the sealing feature that the Hitachi trains do, so far the doors do not move or make any noise form the pressure wave when two trains with a closing speed of 200mph, pass on adjacent tracks. So to my reckoning, there are no negatives with the doors.

In my experience the 700 doors DO move when a fast train passes, with a similar noise to having used 317s, 321s and 319s before them, but it isn't really an issue. A minor annoyance at best.

The air conditioning being near silent, compared to older Desiros, is a definite plus and if the 700 doors are more reliable and won't cause issues in the core if they fail, then that's another list of pluses.

AverageTD · 5 May 2019

I’ve used 450s a lot, less now as their appearances on the Twickenham lines have decreased but I’ve always found them a lot better than Electrostars. They seem quieter and more comfortable than say a Class 377. I don’t use 350s that much but the journeys I have done on them have been nice and trouble free.

As for 700s and 707s they have a really nice ride which can’t be said for the disappointment which is the Class 387 plus the first class exploit on the 700s make them a joy to travel on. One Electrostar I haven’t been on is the Class 379s which I’ve heard is the best of the bunch so I’d like to know what others think of them. I like 375s a lot but still I simply find the Desiros nicer to travel on.

Wivenswold · 5 May 2019

I like the firm ride on the 360s. They do jog around at high speeds but there's something sturdy about. It took a lot of getting used to but I do prefer them to Electrostars which feel soggy* and lifeless by comparison, maybe it's the convincing crunch followed by the purposeful acceleration but there's a feeling that it's efficiently getting on with business.
I feel very safe on Desiros.

*Sorry about the technical-speak.

First Trip On A Desiro

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