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Transport investigations limited

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Jojo

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Hi,I'm hoping for some advice please.
I've just received a letter advising of proposed action against me as I travelled without a ticket between Wellington and Shrewsbury. In my defence the ticket machine on the station was out of order and the office is unmanned in the afternoons. I have previously bought a ticket on the train and had I seen a conductor I would have done in this instance. I didn't see anyone, but assumed I'd be able to buy a ticket at the barrier in shrewsbury.
After the interview with the TIL officer I bought my return ticket as originally intended. I didn't keep the ticket, but the payment shows on my bank statement.
I have been invited to provide mitigation and I am wondering if there is any point? I don't have any evidence that the machine was out of order so it's only my word... should I just pay the "administrative disposal" fee of £85 and have done with it?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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Hi,I'm hoping for some advice please.
I've just received a letter advising of proposed action against me as I travelled without a ticket between Wellington and Shrewsbury. In my defence the ticket machine on the station was out of order and the office is unmanned in the afternoons. I have previously bought a ticket on the train and had I seen a conductor I would have done in this instance. I didn't see anyone, but assumed I'd be able to buy a ticket at the barrier in shrewsbury.
After the interview with the TIL officer I bought my return ticket as originally intended. I didn't keep the ticket, but the payment shows on my bank statement.
I have been invited to provide mitigation and I am wondering if there is any point? I don't have any evidence that the machine was out of order so it's only my word... should I just pay the "administrative disposal" fee of £85 and have done with it?
So, just to confirm, there were no ticketing facilities operational or available at Wellington when you boarded?

If so, you were entirely in the right to board without a ticket - what else is one supposed to do, not travel at all?!

Did the conductor come through to sell tickets? If so, did you ask to buy one from them?

Did you point out the lack of purchasing facilities when you were questioned?

Have you had any other correspondence with Transport Investigations Limited or the train company (I'm presuming it's Transport for Wales but it could be West Midlands Trains)? Is this the first letter they have sent?
 

Darandio

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What day and what time did you catch the train at Wellington? National Rail states that the ticket office isn't closed every afternoon.
 

furlong

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You ought to have kept the ticket to avoid this request to pay twice, but you had no obligation to do so and they ought indeed to be able to trace it from the record of the purchase.
 

Jojo

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So, just to confirm, there were no ticketing facilities operational or available at Wellington when you boarded?

If so, you were entirely in the right to board without a ticket - what else is one supposed to do, not travel at all?!

Did the conductor come through to sell tickets? If so, did you ask to buy one from them?

Did you point out the lack of purchasing facilities when you were questioned?

Have you had any other correspondence with Transport Investigations Limited or the train company (I'm presuming it's Transport for Wales but it could be West Midlands Trains)? Is this the first letter they have sent?

Hi, thanks for the response, I didn't see a conductor but then neither did I go looking for one, which I.apparently should have done. I did explain the situation but it didn't seem to be a valid excuse. I don't recall which train company it was, but haven't received any communication from them. This is the first communication I have received and it was a bit of a shock - I was left with the impression that the interview was the end of it.
 
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Jojo

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What day and what time did you catch the train at Wellington? National Rail states that the ticket office isn't closed every afternoon.

I travelled on Saturday 23rd March at around 2.30 I beleive
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Hi, thanks for the response, I didn't see a conductor but then neither did I go looking for one, which I.apparently should have done. I did explain the situation but it didn't seem to be a valid excuse. I don't recall which train company it was, but haven't received any communication from them. This is the first communication I have received and it was a bit of a shock - I was left with the impression that the interview was the end of it.
There's never an obligation to look for the conductor under any circumstances when you're on the railway (unless perhaps you are seeking to get off at a request stop station). It is for the conductor to approach you and not the other way around. It certainly is a valid "excuse" for you to have been unable to purchase a ticket! Again, what were they expecting for you to have done? Magic a ticket out of thin air?

I travelled on Saturday 23rd March at around 2.30 I beleive
As long as it was after 13:00, you are "safe", as National Rail Enquiries shows that Wellington's ticket office closes at 13:00 on a Saturday.

It would be helpful if you could include a scanned copy (or transcript) of TIL's letter (with all personal details removed, of course). But in general I think you would write a letter (a physical paper one!) back to them saying something like this:
Dear Sir / Madam,

I am in receipt of your letter of [insert date] in relation to a journey from Wellington (Salop) to Shrewsbury which I made on [insert date].

I did not commit any offence in boarding the train without a ticket at Wellington. There were no available facilities to purchase a ticket, as the ticket office was closed (it closing at 13:00 on a Saturday, and me travelling on the [14:00/14:06/15:00/15:07 - delete as appropriate] service), and the ticket machine was out of order.

The guard did not come through on the train; accordingly, I attempted to purchase my ticket at the earliest opportunity, which was by speaking to a member of staff at the barriers at Shrewsbury station. However, the member of staff here claimed that I had acted incorrectly in boarding without a ticket, and took my details, ignoring my explanation of the lack of available ticketing facilities. I bought a ticket to cover my journey after speaking with the member of staff [correct as appropriate].

I did not retain this ticket as I was not aware that you intended to take any further action in respect of this matter, however I have enclosed a redacted copy of my bank statement showing the purchase of the ticket on that date.

I trust that there will be no need to enter into any further correspondence in regard to this matter, and that you will respond expeditiously confirming that the matter is closed.

Yours faithfully,

[Insert name]

Encs: redacted copy of bank statement
 

Jojo

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There's never an obligation to look for the conductor under any circumstances when you're on the railway (unless perhaps you are seeking to get off at a request stop station). It is for the conductor to approach you and not the other way around. It certainly is a valid "excuse" for you to have been unable to purchase a ticket! Again, what were they expecting for you to have done? Magic a ticket out of thin air?


As long as it was after 13:00, you are "safe", as National Rail Enquiries shows that Wellington's ticket office closes at 13:00 on a Saturday.

It would be helpful if you could include a scanned copy (or transcript) of TIL's letter (with all personal details removed, of course). But in general I think you would write a letter (a physical paper one!) back to them saying something like this:

Wow, thank you. That is a marvellous letter. I will let you know how I get on.
 

Arriva 175

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Was there a permit to travel machine in operation? Wellington is in the West Midlands Penalty fare zone and as such purchasing a ticket on board a train is a major no no. Showing a permit to the nearest ticket retailer, in this case RPI would avoid a penalty fare. Being unable to purchase a ticket or a permit would exonerate you as you've got no option. I think in this case WMT need to get a grip with their retailing as they cant have it both ways.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Was there a permit to travel machine in operation? Wellington is in the West Midlands Penalty fare zone and as such purchasing a ticket on board a train is a major no no. Showing a permit to the nearest ticket retailer, in this case RPI would avoid a penalty fare. Being unable to purchase a ticket or a permit would exonerate you as you've got no option. I think in this case WMT need to get a grip with their retailing as they cant have it both ways.
I've not investigated the facilities at Wellington in person, but I know of numerous other stations managed by West Midlands Trains that have either had their Permit to Travel machines removed, or that have had them deactivated, when ticket machines were installed. It wouldn't surprise me if Wellington fell into that category.

Failing to use a Permit to Travel machine isn't, however, an offence under the Byelaws or RoRA. It, at worst, renders you liable to pay the undiscounted Anytime (Day) Single as stipulated under the NRCoT, or to pay a Penalty Fare where a Regulations-compliant scheme is in force.
 

furlong

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Showing a permit to the nearest ticket retailer, in this case RPI would avoid a penalty fare.
There was no mention of a Penalty Fare in this thread - this thread is about an "administrative disposal" not a Penalty Fare.
 

Jojo

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I don't know what a permit to travel machine is... as far as I know there isn't one at Wellington.

Sorry long one - The letter states "the purpose of this letter is to advise you of the proposed action and to provide you with the opportunity for any mitigation that you wish to be considered. The report of this incident indicates that sufficient evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution in accordance with current legislation. This file is presently with our prosecutions team who are considering whether any charge should allege an offence against railway bylaws (2005) or, The Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

"We note there is no previous incidence of a similar nature on file in your name and although not obliged to do so, the company consider that this is a matter that may be suitable for an administration disposal. If you wish to take this opportunity the administration option requires payment of the sum of £85 which includes the fare and a proportion of the administration costs incurred in its recovery.

"This is not a "fine". Only the Courts have authority to impose fines. The company are not obliged to allow this option, but it is a voluntary opportunity to dispose of this allegation administratively as an alternative to proceeding to further action and will remain on file until we have replied to your signed letter. If after your letter has been assessed and the file reviewed there is no reason to change the view that action is justified, then our reply Will say so and we will allow a further 7 days for you to take up the opportunity before proceeding further."
It goes on to say if they haven't heard from.me in 21 days a summons to a magistrates court hearing may be issued
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I don't know what a permit to travel machine is... as far as I know there isn't one at Wellington.

Sorry long one - The letter states "the purpose of this letter is to advise you of the proposed action and to provide you with the opportunity for any mitigation that you wish to be considered. The report of this incident indicates that sufficient evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution in accordance with current legislation. This file is presently with our prosecutions team who are considering whether any charge should allege an offence against railway bylaws (2005) or, The Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

"We note there is no previous incidence of a similar nature on file in your name and although not obliged to do so, the company consider that this is a matter that may be suitable for an administration disposal. If you wish to take this opportunity the administration option requires payment of the sum of £85 which includes the fare and a proportion of the administration costs incurred in its recovery.

"This is not a "fine". Only the Courts have authority to impose fines. The company are not obliged to allow this option, but it is a voluntary opportunity to dispose of this allegation administratively as an alternative to proceeding to further action and will remain on file until we have replied to your signed letter. If after your letter has been assessed and the file reviewed there is no reason to change the view that action is justified, then our reply Will say so and we will allow a further 7 days for you to take up the opportunity before proceeding further."
It goes on to say if they haven't heard from.me in 21 days a summons to a magistrates court hearing may be issued
Ok, in that case the letter I drafted previously is probably appropriate.
 

30907

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Ok, in that case the letter I drafted previously is probably appropriate.
Seconded.

However, as it stands the second paragraph comes across to me as slightly agressive, and might even lead someone to think you were a regular fare evader. Maybe that's just me, but tweaking it getting someone's back up. How about:

There were no available facilities to purchase a ticket at Wellington, as the ticket office was closed by the time I arrived there to travel on the [14:00/14:06/15:00/15:07 - delete as appropriate] service) and the ticket machine was out of order. I therefore did not commit any offence in boarding the train without a ticket.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Seconded.

However, as it stands the second paragraph comes across to me as slightly agressive, and might even lead someone to think you were a regular fare evader. Maybe that's just me, but tweaking it getting someone's back up. How about:
Well, I'm struggling somewhat to see the difference between what you have suggested and what I did, other than a rearrangement of the sentences, but I encourage the OP to consider different wordings as they see appropriate. I think there's a fine line to be trod here - on the one hand you don't want to seem like a put-down who will take whatever lies and garbage TIL are happy to feed you. On the other you don't want to be so aggressive that they ignore the substance of what you say. Assertiveness is the answer.
 

yorkie

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Hi, thanks for the response, I didn't see a conductor but then neither did I go looking for one, which I.apparently should have done...
There is no such obligation.

Providing you had no opportunity to pay at your origin station, if the conductor stayed in their cab or was unable to reach you, then you have done nothing wrong by asking to buy the ticket at Shrewsbury if that was the first opportunity you had.

Let us know how you get on.
 

Jojo

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I've just emailed WM trains to see if they can send me any evidence that the ticket machine was out of order. I assume without evidence it will be my word against theirs. I am also unsure as to whether it is now assumed that everyone can buy tickets online and so a machine available or not would be irrelevant.
 

some bloke

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I've just emailed WM trains to see if they can send me any evidence that the ticket machine was out of order. I assume without evidence it will be my word against theirs. I am also unsure as to whether it is now assumed that everyone can buy tickets online and so a machine available or not would be irrelevant.

If the experts on here agree, you could perhaps send a follow-up:

"I am sorry to bother you again, but please instead send any evidence that the machine was working at the time."

The fact that people can buy tickets online if they have access to working computer/phone, battery, data plan, internet connection, skill and so on doesn't affect your rights here.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I've just emailed WM trains to see if they can send me any evidence that the ticket machine was out of order. I assume without evidence it will be my word against theirs. I am also unsure as to whether it is now assumed that everyone can buy tickets online and so a machine available or not would be irrelevant.
For the purposes of the law, the availability of online tickets is irrelevant. No-one is assumed to be able to buy a ticket online, even if the likes of Northern claim that's what you must do if they don't feel like providing working ticketing facilities! Only those facilities that are physically present at the station count.

It would indeed be your word against theirs if they claimed the ticket machine was working and you claimed it wasn't, but at the end of the day for a criminal prosecution to succeed the Judge or jury must be convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that you are guilty. So if you are able to introduce even reasonable doubt over your guilt you ought not to be convicted.

I would say that if you have pointed out the lack of a working ticket machine right from the beginning and have maintained this throughout then this would certainly suffice as reasonable doubt to me. Of course, I cannot speak to what a Judge or jury would find but I would certainly not think it such a situation as that it warrants pleading guilty (or paying a settlement) for an offence you haven't committed, for a situation entirely of the making of the train company's incompetence.

I don't think it's necessary to explicitly ask them for evidence the ticket machine was working - it is for them to prove that, if what they are effectively implying is that you are lying.
 
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some bloke

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I don't think it's necessary to explicitly ask them for evidence the ticket machine was working - it is for them to prove that, if what they are effectively implying is that you are lying.

Agreed it isn't necessary; perhaps Jojo's intention is to speed up the process by emphasising a difficulty for their case.

A follow-up email might still be relevant as she's already sent the first one.
 
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Jojo

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I just wanted to prove in my letter providing mitigation that I have a) paid my fare for travel that day and b) was not lying about the ticket machine being out of order. I am hoping that in one letter I will be able to get them to agree that action is not appropriate. I know that companies like this prey on those not willing to stand their ground but I don't have the resources to let this go to court. Neither am I rich enough that an £85 "administration" fee won't sting. This is enough to make me not want to use the train anymore.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I just wanted to prove in my letter providing mitigation that I have a) paid my fare for travel that day and b) was not lying about the ticket machine being out of order. I am hoping that in one letter I will be able to get them to agree that action is not appropriate. I know that companies like this prey on those not willing to stand their ground but I don't have the resources to let this go to court. Neither am I rich enough that an £85 "administration" fee won't sting. This is enough to make me not want to use the train anymore.
Completely understandable. It is sadly the case that, until private prosecutions are banned once and for all or at least properly regulated, train companies and their unscrupulous contractors of the likes of TIL will continue to be able to effectively extort settlements out of people who can't afford being convicted of even a minor criminal and who can't afford the perceived, or actual, cost of defending themselves.
 
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daodao

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This account in no way surprises me. Travelling from a station without a ticket in a penalty fare zone when the ticket office (if it exists) is closed and the station ticket machine (typically only 1 available) is out of order puts one at serious risk of being [unfairly] prosecuted if one can't then purchase a ticket from the guard while on the train. RPIs, TOCs and their sub-contractors will assume that ticket machines if installed are operating normally, and the passenger's word that the machine is out-of-order is unlikely to be accepted by them or any court.

When I travelled from Whitchurch (Glam) to Cardiff Bute Road last November, the sole ticket machine at the halt was out of order. In the light of advice on this forum, I took a photo of the machine and struggled through the crowded train to reach the guard to buy a ticket, as I was aware of the potentially serious consequences of not doing so. It was fortunate that I did succeed in buying a ticket on the train, because there were RPIs waiting in the underpass at Queen Street where I changed trains.

In my view, penalty fare zones should only operate in areas where all the stations have ticket offices open at all times the stations are open and/or there are at least 2 ticket machines (in case one fails) at each station in the zone, otherwise the passenger (as in this case) is at significant risk of unfair prosecution.
 
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najaB

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Of course, I cannot speak to what a Judge or jury would find but I would certainly not think it such a situation as that it warrants pleading guilty (or paying a bribe, sorry, settlement) for an offence you haven't committed, for a situation entirely of the making of the train company's incompetence.
While ticketing offences are heard in a magistrates court (hence neither judge nor jury) the sentiment is correct. If everything is as you've posted then there is nothing to settle since a prosecution would not succeed.
I don't think it's necessary to explicitly ask them for evidence the ticket machine was working - it is for them to prove that, if what they are effectively implying is that you are lying.
I agree with this - the prosecution needs to prove that you are guilty of an offence, not the other way around. However, there's no harm in making this request if only to prompt them to check so that they can see that they're in the wrong.
 

Jojo

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While ticketing offences are heard in a magistrates court (hence neither judge nor jury) the sentiment is correct. If everything is as you've posted then there is nothing to settle since a prosecution would not succeed.
I agree with this - the prosecution needs to prove that you are guilty of an offence, not the other way around. However, there's no harm in making this request if only to prompt them to check so that they can see that they're in the wrong.

My understanding is T.I.L. are agents of the train company, not the train company itself. I suspect that had T.I.L. not been present that day, which they aren't as a rule, I would have been able to purchase my ticket at the barrier as planned with no further action. Indeed the tinfoil hat wearing little part of me that believes the corporations are blood sucking entries draining the life out of the common man could easily believe the ticket machine being out of order is no accident of fate. In short I don't believe that now it's the train company squeezing me for an administration charge, it's T.I.L. itself and my only hope of avoiding paying is to convince them they have no case. Which I suspect I won't be successful at to be honest.
 

30907

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On the face of it you have a strong case. (I assume this is a "first time" for you!)
If you decline an administrative settlement, and they respond by proceeding to prosecution, your next step could be to indicate that you will enter a not guilty plea. At which point you might need to take legal advice.
 

najaB

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Indeed the tinfoil hat wearing little part of me that believes the corporations are blood sucking entries draining the life out of the common man could easily believe the ticket machine being out of order is no accident of fate.
All the credible sources I have encountered suggest that the costs incurred in investigating ticketing issues exceed any additional revenue that might accrue in the form of settlements and costs awarded at court.
In short I don't believe that now it's the train company squeezing me for an administration charge, it's T.I.L. itself and my only hope of avoiding paying is to convince them they have no case. Which I suspect I won't be successful at to be honest.
You've got that partially correct. Transport Investigations Ltd do, as you suggested, process ticketing irregularities on behalf of several train operating companies (TOCs). So your dealings so far have been with TIL rather that the TOC. However, and I stand to be corrected on this, my understanding is that the final decision as to whether to prosecute or not lies with the TOC's revenue protection team.

So absolutely try to get TIL to see reason - they do eventually though it might take a little while to get them to see sense, two or three letters is typical. If you're unable to get through to them, then hopefully when the case gets passed back to the TOC for final review before a summons is issued they will finally get the picture.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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the passenger's word that the machine is out-of-order is unlikely to be accepted by them or any court.
As previously stated, I strongly disagree. If you were referring to the passenger's prospects in civil proceedings then perhaps you would be nearer the truth, seeing as the claimant merely has to prove their case on the balance of probabilities (51+% likely). But for criminal proceedings, given the bar is 'beyond all reasonable doubt' (i.e. somewhere north of 90% likely), a consistent allegation of the non-functionality of the ticket machine (as here), without strong and independent evidence to the contrary, is not going to suffice for guilt to be found by a reasonable person.

It was fortunate that I did succeed in buying a ticket on the train, because there were RPIs waiting in the underpass at Queen Street where I changed trains.
It might have saved you some time but I would like to hope that not all TIL-reporting RPIs are as poor at their jobs as the one(s) who the OP came across were. It's a basic tenet of ticketing law (and, frankly, common sense) that you can't expect someone to use facilities that don't, for all intents and purposes, exist because they're not working. With photo evidence there is no way anyone can claim you're fibbing either.

I took a photo of the machine and struggled through the crowded train to reach the guard to buy a ticket, as I was aware of the potentially serious consequences of not doing so
The consequences would have been a potential delay whilst you bought your ticket later on. But there was no obligation to do any of this.

In my view, penalty fare zones should only operate in areas where all the stations have ticket offices open at all times the stations are open and/or there are at least 2 ticket machines (in case one fails) at each station in the zone, otherwise the passenger (as in this case) is at significant risk of unfair prosecution.
I certainly don't disagree - personally, I think there should be much stronger enforcement of breaches of the Penalty Fares Regulations (by all parties, both passengers and TOCs), and a total abolition of private prosecutions - but unfortunately it would cost a lot more to fit proper facilities everywhere and it is therefore not in the TOCs' interests to do so, considering they have no obligation to fit multiple ticket machines and aren't paid any more if they do decide to do so. And as concerns private prosecutions, I can't see that happening in the foreseeable future as there is currently no major campaign I'm aware of.

Indeed the tinfoil hat wearing little part of me that believes the corporations are blood sucking entries draining the life out of the common man could easily believe the ticket machine being out of order is no accident of fate
As much as I'm up for pouring scorn on badly behaving TOCs, I really can't see this being the case. It's a case of inexcusable, almost criminal, incompetence and negligence on the part of the RPI and TIL. But there simply isn't enough cross-industry collaboration to engage in such collusion, to engage in any such collusion - you are expecting far too much from the competence of TOCs!

In short I don't believe that now it's the train company squeezing me for an administration charge, it's T.I.L. itself and my only hope of avoiding paying is to convince them they have no case. Which I suspect I won't be successful at to be honest
TIL are mere agents of the TOC, although they do act somewhat independently of the TOC in some regards. You are correct that one way of resolving the matter is to convince them to drop it. And that is certainly the easiest way. But if they persist, and the TOC is silly enough to pass it for prosecution, all is by no means lost. I would certainly advise you to obtain legal advice, initially by means of a (usually free) initial 30 minute consultation with a criminal defence solicitor. But that is for later, for a potential situation that may not even arise.
 

some bloke

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Just because they are being aggressive doesn't mean they have a strong case.

Would something like this be a more accurate letter than the silly threatening one?

The idea of "mitigation" is especially inappropriate and unpleasant, since no-one has been found guilty.

....

"the purpose of this letter is to advise you of the (proposed) POSSIBLE actionS and to provide you with the opportunity for any DEFENCE OR mitigation that you wish to be considered. The report of this incident APPEARS TO indicate(s) that sufficient evidence (does) MAY exist to warrant STARTING a prosecution in accordance with current legislation.

[Does that actually mean anything? What evidential requirements are in "current legislation" to "warrant" a private prosecution, apart from, say, a requirement for it not to be malicious?]

This file is presently with our prosecutions team who are NOT considering UNTIL YOU REPLY whether any charge should allege an offence against railway bylaws (2005) or, The Regulation of Railways Act 1889. OR NONE AT ALL - BECAUSE:

A. WE MAY HAVE MADE ONE OR MORE OF VARIOUS KINDS OF MISTAKE IN RECORDING THE INCIDENT, READING THE REPORT, ASSESSING THE CASE...

OR

B. YOU MAY WRITE BACK WITH INFORMATION THAT MAKES IT NOT WORTH OUR WHILE.

"We note there is no previous incidence of a similar nature on file in your name and although not obliged to do so, the company consider that this is a matter that may be suitable for an administration disposal.

OR, WE AREN'T SURE WHAT WE ARE DOING WITH THIS CASE,

OR, WE DON'T WANT TO BOTHER THE TRAIN COMPANY WHO HIRED US BY ASKING THEM FOR INFORMATION.

If you wish to take this opportunity (TO HELP US OUT OF WHAT WE KNOW WAS NOT REALLY SUITABLE BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY CAN'T BUY A TICKET IF THE MACHINE IS BROKEN AND WE DON'T WANT TO CHECK WHETHER THAT WAS TRUE?) the administration option requires payment of the sum of £85 which includes the fare and a proportion of the administration costs incurred in its recovery. DEPENDING ON HOW WE DEFINE "INCURRED", BECAUSE WE COULD COUNT CONTRIBUTING TO OVERALL COSTS IN THIS AREA OR JUST A QUICK GLANCE AND STANDARD LETTER. [The letter says "its recovery", not general enforcement work]

"This is not a "fine". Only the Courts have authority to impose fines. The company are not obliged to allow this option, but it is a voluntary opportunity to dispose of this allegation administratively as an alternative to proceeding to further action and will remain on file until we have replied to your signed letter. If after your letter has been assessed and the file reviewed there is no reason to change the view that action is justified, then our reply Will say so and we will allow a further 7 days for you to take up the opportunity before proceeding further."

SO EVEN IF YOU TELL US YOU COMMITTED THE WORST OF THE CRIMES, AND WE DECIDE LEGAL ACTION IS JUSTIFIED, WE WILL LET YOU AVOID IT ANYWAY?

[Why would they say that if they thought their case was likely to be strong?]
 

bb21

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I know it is easy to do but I fear we are at risk of drifting off-topic so can we please keep an eye on the core issue under discussion please?

Discussions about how the system could work better or should not work should ideally take place in a separate thread and everyone is welcome to open a thread to discuss that.
 
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