c2c engineering works causes odd timetable

700007 · 5 May 2019

Travelling on the c2c network this weekend it seems to be more complex than it needs to be.

No service London Fenchurch Street to Barking, and Barking to Grays via Dagenham Dock. All trains diverted to Stratford and London Liverpool Street.

How comes a journey from the Tilbury loop is so fragmented to get to London? On a normal day you would be able get a direct train from say Stanford-le-Hope towards London Terminals. In the instance of today and the last few weekends, you have to take three trains:

One from Stanford-le-Hope to Grays
One from Grays to Upminster
One from Upminster to London

Very inconvenient when surely a direct train could still be provided as normal? I worry that this isn't an efficient use of resources and would put people off using the train from the Thurrock and Thames Gateway area.

Anyone know the rationale behind this?

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GB · 5 May 2019

Perhaps there isn't enough spare capacity on the GEML or enough train crew to have so many extra through services. Perhaps through trains would conflict on the single line Ockendon branch. A self contained shuttle on said branch only needs two units and two sets of train crew....seems to me to be an efficient method to connect to other services either side of the branch.

700007 · 5 May 2019

GB said:
Perhaps there isn't enough spare capacity on the GEML or enough train crew to have so many extra through services. Perhaps through trains would conflict on the single line Ockendon branch. A self contained shuttle on said branch only needs two units and two sets of train crew....seems to me to be an efficient method to connect to other services either side of the branch.

Sunday service on c2c is 2tph to Shoeburyness via Basildon, 2tph to Southend via Chafford Hundred and 2tph Grays via Dagenham Dock.

In today's case from London they're running 2tph to Shoeburyness via Basildon and 2tph to Laindon. The Laindon services are what I imagine would otherwise be Ockenden loop services?

GB · 5 May 2019

Todays Laindon/London services are in addition to the Upminster/Ockendon/Grays shuttle services.

30907 · 5 May 2019

The services operated (each half hourly) are:
LST-Shoeburyness and Laindon
Grays-Southend C and
Upminster-Grays.
My guess is that it has something to do with train lengths - Upminster bay looks to be restricted to 4 cars, and Grays-Southend might warrant 8? But it does seem odd otherwise.
On the main line, ~~4tph as far as Laindon is obviously essential~~, though as it's years since I was anywhere in the area I don't know why they aren't running further east.
CORRECTION: if the main line only gets 2tph on a Sunday, then it definitely does seem odd.

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

Upminster 1A is restricted to 4 car and Grays - Southend Central requires 8 car formations.

Attempting to run through to LST doesn't work due to the fixed paths on the GEML not marrying up at a passing location for the OSL - either Upminster combined with Grays or at Ockendon.

The Laindon terminators are to support the LUL closure and turning at Upminster P1 from Dagenham East Crossovers being non-ARS and placing too much work on Workstation 1.

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

Also, the Rainham Lines are out because of BRE related work, meaning freight is also diverted via the OSL meaning it has to be kept to a self contained shuttle.

ComUtoR · 5 May 2019

BRE / OSL ?

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

Apologies - I was in work mode

Ockendon Single Line
Barking Riverside Extension

wls1 · 5 May 2019

This is different to the loop services that will be happening in July, with Fenchurch Street-Fenchurch Street services via Rainham & Chafford Hundred with southend bound trains running via rainham and london bound trains via the OSL. I wonder whether they're going to try to get some 12 cars on the trains that don't change ends in Grays P3 as all the platforms can take them.

306024 · 5 May 2019

wls1 said:
This is different to the loop services that will be happening in July, with FST-FST services via RNM & CFH with southend bound trains running via rainham and london bound trains via the OSL. I wonder whether they're going to try to get some 12 cars on the trains that dont change ends in GRY p3 as all the platforms can take them.

Been following all this with interest but you’ve lost me there. From that I’m guessing only the up line is blocked between West Thurrock Jn and Barking, but the 12 car reference?

Out of curiosity, could today’s timetable have been 4tph Liverpool St to Shoeburyness, and 2 tph Barking to Pitsea via Ockendon? Laindon terminators seem odd given that Basildon is the more important station but no doubt there are good reasons.

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

Afraid not. The platforms are in situ but the hardware isn't. Plus the cycling of the rolling stock isn't as efficient - particularly getting units out to / from Pitsea on the Tilbury Lines.

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

The Laindon terminators are to support LUL with no District Line sevice and to help clear out Stratford otherwise Platform 8 there becomes unmanageable. They cannot be turned at Upminster because of the workload put on to Workstation 1 with no ARS at Dagenham East Crossovers.

306024 · 5 May 2019

I’m getting more confused now. Perhaps I shouldn’t ask but what hardware is missing? And efficient cycling of units? There’s only East Ham and Shoebury to consider, it’s not a complicated diesel service with fuel range to contend with.

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

There is no DOO equipment installed for the Class 357s. The 387s also cannot be deployed due to lighting, stop car boards, etc.

Cycling - i.e. the extension in journey times. Currently 71 out of 74 357s and 6 out 6 387s are deployed. Unfortunately the combined journey times for a return trip to London are increased, which affects the rolling stock provision.

Class 170101 · 5 May 2019

Nora93 said:
Upminster 1A is restricted to 4 car and Grays - Southend Central requires 8 car formations.

Attempting to run through to LST doesn't work due to the fixed paths on the GEML not marrying up at a passing location for the OSL - either Upminster combined with Grays or at Ockendon.

The Laindon terminators are to support the LUL closure and turning at Upminster P1 from Dagenham East Crossovers being non-ARS and placing too much work on Workstation 1.

Shouldn't make any difference between Barking and Liverpool Street, GA and MTR are on the Mains due to a closure of the ELs beyond Ilford Depot L/End Jn towards Shenfield today. In theory they could have run 6tph though I will admit they do have to thread between ARL services on the Barking to Gospel Oak route but c2c do manage to divert 6tph on Saturdays and with freight when Fenchurch Street is closed.

Nora93 said:
Also, the Rainham Lines are out because of BRE related work, meaning freight is also diverted via the OSL meaning it has to be kept to a self contained shuttle.

None being diverted as there isn't any.

Class 170101 · 5 May 2019

306024 said:
Been following all this with interest but you’ve lost me there. From that I’m guessing only the up line is blocked between West Thurrock Jn and Barking, but the 12 car reference?

The Up Line Only is Blocked as part of Barking Riverside commissioning or works related to said project, but I guess it leads to a capacity problem due to effectively two single lines in operation, one between Barking and Grays and the normal single line between Upminster and Grays so perhaps someone was hoping for 12 car operation as fewer services would physically be able to operate over the single lines.

306024 · 5 May 2019

Nora93 said:
There is no DOO equipment installed for the Class 357s. The 387s also cannot be deployed due to lighting, stop car boards, etc.

Cycling - i.e. the extension in journey times. Currently 71 out of 74 357s and 6 out 6 387s are deployed. Unfortunately the combined journey times for a return trip to London are increased, which affects the rolling stock provision.

We must be at cross-purposes here. I’m talking about the original question regarding today’s timetable, not the future blocks.

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

Regarding no freight today, you'll find that at what would have been the T18 submission and subsequent T14 offer stages there was. Its only much closer in, beyond T12, that the freight teams knows what is or isn't required.

Clearly the person who had to write Weeks 04 (Easter) and 06 (this weekend) would probably be best placed to advise why things are as they are

GB · 5 May 2019

Class 170101 said:
Shouldn't make any difference between Barking and Liverpool Street, GA and MTR are on the Mains due to a closure of the ELs beyond Ilford Depot L/End Jn towards Shenfield today. In theory they could have run 6tph though I will admit they do have to thread between ARL services on the Barking to Gospel Oak route but c2c do manage to divert 6tph on Saturdays and with freight when Fenchurch Street is closed.

None being diverted as there isn't any.

MTR are running Electric line from Shenfield to Gidea Park Jnc, then Mainline to Illford where they cross back onto the Electric line via the flyover avoider to Liverpool St

Alfie1014 · 5 May 2019

Nora93 said:
There is no DOO equipment installed for the Class 357s. The 387s also cannot be deployed due to lighting, stop car boards, etc

I assume in this context you mean for 12 car 357 operation on the Tilbury loop? Those taxpayer funded, through NR HLOS, platform extensions on the Tilbury loop were good value for money then! Have any 12 car 357s ever run in passenger service on the Tilbury loop?

Nora93 · 5 May 2019

Yes, one Sunday in 2017 when the Laindon route was shut and so was the GEML - though it required manual dispatch on Pitsea platforms 3 and 4. They were non-stop to Barking. It was an event day, so the additional capacity with 12-357 ops was necessary.

Class 170101 · 5 May 2019

Non-stop 12 car running on the Tilbury Loop happened before HLOS (including missing out on Pitsea mind you).

Alfie1014 · 6 May 2019

Yep I know 12 cars have operated over the Tilbury loop since electrification (having both lived and worked on the route), though not stopping I was questioning whether since the platforms had been extended any had stopped?

bb21 · 8 May 2019

A reminder to please explain abbreviations on first use in a thread to help us improve accessibility, especially with CRS codes, in line with forum rules. I have amended a few but would be appreciated if members can bear this in mind.

Obviously use common sense and don't need to expand on absolutely everything, but just bear in mind there may be differing levels of understanding in the general audience. Thanks.

700007 · 8 May 2019

Thank you for all your replies on this, now understanding why the odd timetable.

Cletus · 8 May 2019

bb21 said:
A reminder to please explain abbreviations on first use in a thread to help us improve accessibility, especially with CRS codes, in line with forum rules. I have amended a few but would be appreciated if members can bear this in mind.

Obviously use common sense and don't need to expand on absolutely everything, but just bear in mind there may be differing levels of understanding in the general audience. Thanks.

What's a "CRS" code?

43096 · 8 May 2019

Cletus said:
What's a "CRS" code?

Which rather neatly illustrates the point that the forum rules on this are inconsistent. What is acceptable?

c2c engineering works causes odd timetable

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