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Winchester to Tichborne - 5 miles for £5.65

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alex397

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A typically one-sided article about buses., that gives far too much space to ill-informed Andy Burnham. There doesn't seem to be any un-biased opinion from any industry experts.
 

Typhoon

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Disappointing.

In many areas return fares no longer exist, forcing passengers to buy a day pass. Sometimes there aren’t even single fares. In Kent, anyone asking for a single ticket on the Stagecoach service from Deal to St Margaret’s At Cliffe during the morning rush-hour must buy the Dover & Deal dayrider ticket for £4.30.
(from the article)

If they really insisted, the reporter could purchase a single ticket from Deal to St Margaret's (6 miles) for £4.90 however the Dayrider ticket is a much better deal enabling them to travel round the White Cliffs Country and return to Deal ready for their HS1 trip back to London, doubtless on expenses. In so many industries (energy, insurance stand out) there are complaints that customers are not being offered the best deal - here, the company and the drivers are being helpful and working to the passenger's advantage. And they haven't even got the fare right - £4.50 for a paper ticket, £4.20 for a mobile ticket. Sloppy journalism
 

Typhoon

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Do you agree that the Hampshire £5.65 journey is the priciest in the UK?
'The priciest ticket' needs some clarification. According to Stagecoach, Lancaster to Grasmere (see article) costs £10.80, probably because its 44 miles and takes over 2 hours through a largely rural setting. On the other hand, there are three stops in my local High Street, about 100 yards apart and it costs over a quid to travel between them so the price per mile would be pretty large (and the only people who make the journey are those with ENCTS cards who are physically incapable of making the journey on foot).
 

Megafuss

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It's an issue commercial operators face as normal folk can't understand why in London it costs £1.50 and everywhere else it can cost more.

About 20 years ago my local operator actually put a pie chart in the timetable showing how much of every £1 of fare was spent on which costs. It was a real eye-opener. Working in the industry for nearly 15 years, it still holds true today.
 

higthomas

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The thing is thought there are still places where it costs less than London. For example in Oxford city area if you buy your tickets 12 at a time it's about £1.25 for any journey.

It's that area disparity that's really galling.
 

radamfi

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A typically one-sided article about buses., that gives far too much space to ill-informed Andy Burnham. There doesn't seem to be any un-biased opinion from any industry experts.

What would you prefer it said?

First surely don't deserve any patronage after their feeble excuse for not publishing their single fares.
 

700007

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I think it's just another attempt at The Guardian's cause to nationalise another industry at the expense of the taxpayer in this wild belief cheaper fares and increased reliability will come around.

Ultimately, you cannot compare the prices in London to the prices elsewhere in the country. London operates completely differently to support otherwise what is an incredibly inefficient and loss-making network. There are several bus routes in London that probably do not make a profit or are even close to breaking even.

The way it has operated for many years is that TfL uses the fare box from London Underground, London Overground, DLR, TfL Rail and London Trams - where these subsidiaries make a healthy profit - to subsidise London Buses. This leaves little money left over for the rail and tube side of the network which is why they're now struggling to properly balance the books and why season tickets will hike every year. It also explains why particularly London Underground has been cash strapped and why purchasing the new Piccadilly line trains was financially difficult for them, with no idea how or when they will be able to also renew the Bakerloo and Central line trains.

Bus operators out of London don't operate routes on a contract most of the time and are entirely on commercial risks and terms. As a result of this, they need the fares to be set appropriately to at the very least break even, but the theory of a firm dictates that they aim for profit. Bus operating costs are high, and particularly if passengers don't use a route as much as the operator anticipates, then you get fares that are a fiver or something like that. Otherwise it is a case of scaling back the route or withdrawing it completely.

I must be right in thinking commercial routes practically make all their income from the fare box, incomes and any subsidies or grants from the local council (if any).

Reliability is something that is obviously down to both internal and external factors. Passengers in London get more reliable services as a result of high investment in technology such as iBus. This allows the controllers to easily see where a bus is on a route and can communicate with the driver in real time to help even out and regulate the service. But that is a system that costs millions of pounds which some smaller independent operators just cannot afford hence service quality and regulation at the worst of times can be really difficult for them. This may be an area where the government could step in to provide grants to have an iBus like system on more bus routes around the country perhaps?
 

Typhoon

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It's that area disparity that's really galling.
But surely that happens with a lot of other products. I gather that fuel in the Highlands can be much more expensive; when I go on price comparison sites they want to know where I live because different providers charge different prices for different areas. Generally it is more expensive to live in remote areas than towns.
 

Stan Drews

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What would you prefer it said?

Perhaps pointing out the huge disparity in the level of financial support from the public purse would be a good start, ...oh, and mentioning the £700m annual losses of TfL.
 

Typhoon

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First surely don't deserve any patronage after their feeble excuse for not publishing their single fares.
Agreed. Stagecoach, Go Ahead and quite a few independents (with much fewer resources) don't seem to have any difficulty publishing fares! And, amazingly enough, people understand them.
 

radamfi

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Perhaps pointing out the huge disparity in the level of financial support from the public purse would be a good start, ...oh, and mentioning the £700m annual losses of TfL.

That is mentioned.

A spokesman for Stagecoach said it could not compete with London’s £1.50 fares. “The cost of operating London’s bus network is £700m more than the income TfL receives from fares. If London operated like the rest of the UK where fares reflect the true cost of running services, pricing would be far different,” he said.

London has one of the most expensive transport networks in the world. Many British commentators however only focus on the bus/tram fares.
 

radamfi

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I think it's just another attempt at The Guardian's cause to nationalise another industry at the expense of the taxpayer in this wild belief cheaper fares and increased reliability will come around.

Last time I looked London's buses were operated by private operators. Compared to most of the developed world, London's transport is one of the least nationalised. Buses, trams, DLR and National Rail trains are operated by private companies. Only the Underground is still publicly operated.

Ultimately, you cannot compare the prices in London to the prices elsewhere in the country. London operates completely differently to support otherwise what is an incredibly inefficient and loss-making network. There are several bus routes in London that probably do not make a profit or are even close to breaking even.

That is irrelevant to the general public. All they see is the high fares. Understandably, the majority of people outside London choose not to use buses on a regular basis.

Reliability is something that is obviously down to both internal and external factors. Passengers in London get more reliable services as a result of high investment in technology such as iBus. This allows the controllers to easily see where a bus is on a route and can communicate with the driver in real time to help even out and regulate the service. But that is a system that costs millions of pounds which some smaller independent operators just cannot afford hence service quality and regulation at the worst of times can be really difficult for them. This may be an area where the government could step in to provide grants to have an iBus like system on more bus routes around the country perhaps?

If they can't afford something as basic as bus tracking, maybe we shouldn't have these small operators?
 

Ianno87

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That is mentioned.



London has one of the most expensive transport networks in the world. Many British commentators however only focus on the bus/tram fares.

True in Zone 1 Tubes/Trains. Less true for outside Zone 1 - e.g. a non-Zone 1 Oyster single on TfL/Overground/Tube is £1.50. It's possible to do Upminster-Heathrow for this price!
 

700007

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Last time I looked London's buses were operated by private operators. Compared to most of the developed world, London's transport is one of the least nationalised. Buses, trams, DLR and National Rail trains are operated by private companies. Only the Underground is still publicly operated.



That is irrelevant to the general public. All they see is the high fares. Understandably, the majority of people outside London choose not to use buses on a regular basis.



If they can't afford something as basic as bus tracking, maybe we shouldn't have these small operators?
Yes, they are privatised. However all the operators don't own any of the routes, TfL does. TfL awards contracts to operate each route for 5+2 years on a tender basis. TfL also takes the full fare box from any revenue generated.

It may be irrelevant to the general public but at the end of the day that's what has gotten them into this situation. If you want cheaper fares, then that's where the government should intervene to subsidise these loss making bus routes that charge high fares!

How can you suggest to eliminate small operators and then complain about large fares? Basic business here, if you reduce the competition in an area, this creates something of a duopoly or even monopoly depending on area and whichever big 5 group is operating there. This is basically a green card to allow them to charge higher fares as their passengers have no other public transport choice.
 

radamfi

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Yes, they are privatised. However all the operators don't own any of the routes, TfL does. TfL awards contracts to operate each route for 5+2 years on a tender basis. TfL also takes the full fare box from any revenue generated.

This is not very different to rail "privatisation". Virgin/First etc. don't "own" any routes, and their right to run train services ends at the end of the franchise, yet people call this right-wing.

How can you suggest to eliminate small operators and then complain about large fares? Basic business here, if you reduce the competition in an area, this creates something of a duopoly or even monopoly depending on area and whichever big 5 group is operating there. This is basically a green card to allow them to charge higher fares as their passengers have no other public transport choice.

There is little or no competition on most routes in GB outside London. Where the transport authority decides the fares and routes and tenders out services to private companies then you usually have two or more companies bidding for those routes.
 

radamfi

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True in Zone 1 Tubes/Trains. Less true for outside Zone 1 - e.g. a non-Zone 1 Oyster single on TfL/Overground/Tube is £1.50. It's possible to do Upminster-Heathrow for this price!

You also have to allow for connections between bus and rail. So a combined bus and tube fare between zones 1 and 2 is at least £4.40 peak, £3.90 off-peak.
 

Statto

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It's like comparing chalk with cheese, London fares are heavily subsidised & set by TFL, what would the fares be if they were set by the operator, certainly more expensive, outside London fares are commercial & set by the operator, i guess the Hampshire fare is taking into account of the operating costs, a lot of the seemingly high fares also due to lack of decent central funding from those using ENCTS passes.
 

radamfi

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The 1st 10 years of iBus cost London buses £150 million - nearly £2000 / bus /year.

Real time bus tracking was widely available across Europe before London and even British operators outside London have largely belatedly implemented it. Tracking is essential.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Bus operators out of London don't operate routes on a contract most of the time and are entirely on commercial risks and terms. As a result of this, they need the fares to be set appropriately to at the very least break even, but the theory of a firm dictates that they aim for profit

Round here the dominant bus operator, owned by a certain fundamentalist Christian whose religious beliefs extend to gay-bashing but not the ethical business practices promoted by his deity, have a profit margin of about 22%.

"There's no money" my a*se!

Yes, they are privatised. However all the operators don't own any of the routes, TfL does. TfL awards contracts to operate each route for 5+2 years on a tender basis. TfL also takes the full fare box from any revenue generated.

What's wrong with any of that? Private companies in the regions don't "own" the routes either, given that anyone can set up a bus route and anyone can abandon a route with 56 days' notice. So what we get is the council spending money on street infrastructure- shelters, bus lanes- and the bus companies abandoning it. There's a bus gate in South Shields, installed at vast expense at the demand of Stagecoach, which was abandoned by them weeks after opening. You're telling me that's better than London?

As for the London operating losses, don't forget ENCTS costs a billion quid a year. And don't forget to add in the cost of all these bus improvement works that aren't paid for by commercial operators. Suddenly £700m looks like small beer.
 

700007

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This is not very different to rail "privatisation". Virgin/First etc. don't "own" any routes, and their right to run train services ends at the end of the franchise, yet people call this right-wing.



There is little or no competition on most routes in GB outside London. Where the transport authority decides the fares and routes and tenders out services to private companies then you usually have two or more companies bidding for those routes.
There is still competition in a lot of areas outside of London on routes going to similar places. Look at practically any city centre and I am sure you will find at least one.
Round here the dominant bus operator, owned by a certain fundamentalist Christian whose religious beliefs extend to gay-bashing but not the ethical business practices promoted by his deity, have a profit margin of about 22%.

"There's no money" my a*se!



What's wrong with any of that? Private companies in the regions don't "own" the routes either, given that anyone can set up a bus route and anyone can abandon a route with 56 days' notice. So what we get is the council spending money on street infrastructure- shelters, bus lanes- and the bus companies abandoning it. There's a bus gate in South Shields, installed at vast expense at the demand of Stagecoach, which was abandoned by them weeks after opening. You're telling me that's better than London?

As for the London operating losses, don't forget ENCTS costs a billion quid a year. And don't forget to add in the cost of all these bus improvement works that aren't paid for by commercial operators. Suddenly £700m looks like small beer.
Ah I think I can tell which company you are talking about! There's nothing wrong with any of it, the London system works very well for what it is worth but it would be harder to implement outside London is my main point. All routes would either need to be able to break even or make a profit otherwise for every loss making route in operation out there, there needs to a profit making route that can cover the loss.
 

RustySpoons

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Transdev's single fares can be pretty obscene - Burnley to Nelson, about 3.5 miles and can take 20 minutes plus is £2.90. The train, which takes at least half the time costs just £3. Nelson and Colne College to Nelson (if you're unfortunate enough to catch one of the last services on the '2') doesn't cost much less and that is barely over a mile... And no through ticketing is available. Same with evening services on the Mainline when services terminate at Burnley. Despite journeys leaving Burnley to continue west and east at the same time, through ticketing isn't available. Soon mounts up!

For regular travellers though the daytripper/weekly tickets do offer substantial savings and good value, so I guess it balances out. Just a shame the single fares are so high and ticketing boundaries don't make them feasible for occasional travel.
 

duncombec

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Transdev's single fares can be pretty obscene - Burnley to Nelson, about 3.5 miles and can take 20 minutes plus is £2.90. [...]
For regular travellers though the daytripper/weekly tickets do offer substantial savings and good value, so I guess it balances out. Just a shame the single fares are so high and ticketing boundaries don't make them feasible for occasional travel.

It depends on what you regard as obscene, and what that fare is being used on. My local at-present-German-owned operator charges £3.70 for a journey of the same distance - £2.90 would be a substantial fare reduction for me. In fact, despite only being 3 and a bit miles out from the town centre, it is cheaper to buy a £5.50 day ticket than a standard return fare, which is over £6.

What's more, although it has been a few years since I've experienced Transdev services, they appear to be better all round. If that's what they can do on £2.90, on £3.70 they could probably provide a uniformed butler, free newspapers (and I don't mean Metro) and a hot drinks machine!
 
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