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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Esker-pades

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They may be more democratic than in totalitarian states, but like parliamentary elections they can deliver results that are unrepresentative of people's views and leave a lot of people feeling disenfranchised. Most people live in "safe" seats for one party or another so their vote really doesn't count and there is no reason for the parties to pay any attention to their views - hence they can often win (or think they will) by playing to their own bases as both Labour and Conservatives are doing at present.

In my view some kind of proportional system would be very helpful in addressing the root causes of the divisions in British society, which have resulted in the Brexit mess amongst other things.
I'm aware of the serious flas of FPTP and similar systems. I'm more pro AMS (Additional Member System) rather than pure PR (thus keeping the local level representation but reddressing the balance) or using the House of Lords as a pure PR system. Local representation is very good for accountability in national parliaments, and an undervalued aspect of FPTP. FPTP remains a form of electing representatives and to call it undemocratic is silly really.
 
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GusB

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I'm aware of the serious flas of FPTP and similar systems. I'm more pro AMS (Additional Member System) rather than pure PR (thus keeping the local level representation but reddressing the balance) or using the House of Lords as a pure PR system. Local representation is very good for accountability in national parliaments, and an undervalued aspect of FPTP. FPTP remains a form of electing representatives and to call it undemocratic is silly really.
I think the AMS system (as used in the Scottish Parliament) works reasonably well in that even if your constituency representative is from a party you didn't vote for, the chances are that the party you do favour will be represented among the regional candidates. In my case the constituency MSP is SNP, but as a Green voter I am also represented by a regional MSP from that party. The same could be said for anyone whose preference is Labour, LibDem or Conservative.
The downside to this, of course, is that a candidate who is rejected at constituency level will often find themselves elected anyway if their names are high enough up the party list.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I think the AMS system (as used in the Scottish Parliament) works reasonably well in that even if your constituency representative is from a party you didn't vote for, the chances are that the party you do favour will be represented among the regional candidates. In my case the constituency MSP is SNP, but as a Green voter I am also represented by a regional MSP from that party. The same could be said for anyone whose preference is Labour, LibDem or Conservative.
The downside to this, of course, is that a candidate who is rejected at constituency level will often find themselves elected anyway if their names are high enough up the party list.

I don't see that as an issue at all. As I understand it, voters have a separate vote for the regional list - and they presumably vote for a party in full knowledge (if they can be bothered) of who that party's candidates on the list are. Besides, the term 'rejected at constituency level' is some what loaded: It doesn't (usually) mean that loads of voters specifically voted against you - usually, it simply means that another candidate got more votes. There has been a recorded case of a candidate winning with just 24.5% of the votes (Belfast South, 2015 - and seeing as you mention Scotland, you might also want to check out Inverness in 1992) or losing with not far off twice that vote share (Winchester, 2010).

I would think a more serious problem with AMS is the way you end up with two categories of representatives: The ones who have local constituencies, and the ones who don't. That must cause differences in workloads, to say the least. But I wouldn't necessarily use even that as a reason to reject AMS, since every electoral system has some disadadvantages.
 

edwin_m

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I don't see that as an issue at all. As I understand it, voters have a separate vote for the regional list - and they presumably vote for a party in full knowledge (if they can be bothered) of who that party's candidates on the list are. Besides, the term 'rejected at constituency level' is some what loaded: It doesn't (usually) mean that loads of voters specifically voted against you - usually, it simply means that another candidate got more votes. There has been a recorded case of a candidate winning with just 24.5% of the votes (Belfast South, 2015 - and seeing as you mention Scotland, you might also want to check out Inverness in 1992) or losing with not far off twice that vote share (Winchester, 2010).

I would think a more serious problem with AMS is the way you end up with two categories of representatives: The ones who have local constituencies, and the ones who don't. That must cause differences in workloads, to say the least. But I wouldn't necessarily use even that as a reason to reject AMS, since every electoral system has some disadadvantages.
Would it be better if the "regional" winners were the closest losers from the individual constituencies, rather than a separate party list? Particularly in today's political climate there are lots of people who may feel their views are best represented by a faction within a party or even factions within several parties, rather than any one party manifesto. For example I would never ever vote for a Tory Brexiter but might do so if the candidate was a Remainer (if there are any left who admit to such).
 

mmh

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For example I would never ever vote for a Tory Brexiter but might do so if the candidate was a Remainer (if there are any left who admit to such).

Eh? The majority of sitting Conservative MPs are remainers.
 

ainsworth74

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They may be more democratic than in totalitarian states, but like parliamentary elections they can deliver results that are unrepresentative of people's views and leave a lot of people feeling disenfranchised. Most people live in "safe" seats for one party or another so their vote really doesn't count and there is no reason for the parties to pay any attention to their views - hence they can often win (or think they will) by playing to their own bases as both Labour and Conservatives are doing at present.

In my view some kind of proportional system would be very helpful in addressing the root causes of the divisions in British society, which have resulted in the Brexit mess amongst other things.

Absolutely! I think one of the things that the 2015 General Election demonstrated was just how broken our current method of electing MPs is!

Compare the results of UKIP and the SNP. UKIP received 3.8m votes or 12.6% of the total vote and gained a single seat. The SNP got 1.4m votes or 4.7% of the total vote and ended up with 56 seats. 56! Now like them or loathe them (either of them) that just cannot be fair to anyone. But because of the way our current system works because the SNP voters are extremely concentrated whilst UKIP are spread out the SNP get lots of seats and UKIP get hardly any. The Greens have similar problems, 1.1m votes or 3.8% of the total and just a single seat. They only got 300,000 less votes than the SNP but end up with 55 fewer seats! 55!

The Lib Dems got 2.4m votes or 7.9% of the total and had 8 seats. The DUP got only 184,000 votes or just 0.6% of the vote and also got 8 seats. They have eight times as many seats as UKIP after that election but UKIP got 21 times as many votes!

That just isn't healthy for democracy in any way shape or form! Is it any wonder that people feel utterly disenfranchised and ignored when FPTP produces such awful results?

But of course it is in neither the Conservative nor Labour parties interests to change the system because after all they are still the largest parties and, at the time of writing this post(!), still the most likely to win enough seats to form a Government (even if they require propping up to get there).

Elections to Westminster are just so completely and utterly broken :(
 

Senex

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But of course it is in neither the Conservative nor Labour parties interests to change the system because after all they are still the largest parties and, at the time of writing this post(!), still the most likely to win enough seats to form a Government (even if they require propping up to get there).

And that's why nothing will change until/unless both Conservative and Labour are smashed beyond repair so that there can be no future hope of "your turn / our turn" and a proper proportional system can be agreed on by the majority of significant remaining parties and recommended to the electorate, with a proper defence explaining fully just how defective the present British "democracy" is (difficult after they've spent so many years defending FPTP) and what fair representation means. Brexit could still just be what breaks the old two-party structure, but it's not clear yet that the party establishments won't cobble something together to try to keep their privileged positions, quite regardless of course of what might be good for state, nations, or people.
 

mmh

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a proper proportional system can be agreed on by the majority of significant remaining parties and recommended to the electorate, with a proper defence explaining fully just how defective the present British "democracy" is (difficult after they've spent so many years defending FPTP) and what fair representation means

We've had our referendum on replacing FPTP.

On a turnout of 42.2 per cent, 68 per cent voted "No" and 32 percent voted "Yes". Ten of the 440 local voting areas recorded 'Yes' votes above 50 per cent: those in Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh Central and Glasgow Kelvin, with the remaining six in London.

Quite decisive. The underlying problem with changing a voting system is the proponents are always those whose minority interest might benefit from it.
 

mmh

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On replacing it with AV, not a proper PR system.

Which was the proposal put forward by the party which had spent the previous 30 years saying we should have PR.

It was conclusively rejected, using the least controversial voting system we have. Yet people have spent the past 3 years arguing a vote using the same system should be invalid.

It's not about the system or democracy, it's about disliking the result.
 

ainsworth74

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Not really a valid statistic as the SNP only stood in Scotland.
Actually I think it is. It quite nicely demonstrates the inherent advantage that a party has when it's supporters are almost entirely focused in one geographic area. If UKIPs 3.8m voters were all concentrated in one area then they would perform better but because they're a national party with supporters everywhere they're at a massive disadvantage to the SNP. See also the Lib Dems/Greens versus the DUP. Two national parties versus yet another very concentrated party.
 

ainsworth74

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It's not about the system or democracy, it's about disliking the result.

Surely you can't suggest that the result of the 2015 General Election was a good one that actually provided effective representation to the views of the voters of the UK (let alone giving the appearance of it)?
 

radamfi

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Which was the proposal put forward by the party which had spent the previous 30 years saying we should have PR.

Nope, the Lib Dems wanted PR but the Conservatives would only offer them a referendum on AV.
 

Groningen

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That is your political system. If Conservatives are everywhere the party with the most votes than they have all the seats.
 

anme

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That's surely why May's deal hasn't been passed.

Do you think brexiters are in favour of May's deal? They hate it. It hasn't passed because the headbangers and the DUP won't vote for it. The supposed Tory remainers are the ones voting to leave the EU!
 

433N

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Absolutely! I think one of the things that the 2015 General Election demonstrated was just how broken our current method of electing MPs is!

Compare the results of UKIP and the SNP. UKIP received 3.8m votes or 12.6% of the total vote and gained a single seat. The SNP got 1.4m votes or 4.7% of the total vote and ended up with 56 seats. 56! Now like them or loathe them (either of them) that just cannot be fair to anyone. But because of the way our current system works because the SNP voters are extremely concentrated whilst UKIP are spread out the SNP get lots of seats and UKIP get hardly any. The Greens have similar problems, 1.1m votes or 3.8% of the total and just a single seat. They only got 300,000 less votes than the SNP but end up with 55 fewer seats! 55!

The Lib Dems got 2.4m votes or 7.9% of the total and had 8 seats. The DUP got only 184,000 votes or just 0.6% of the vote and also got 8 seats. They have eight times as many seats as UKIP after that election but UKIP got 21 times as many votes!

That just isn't healthy for democracy in any way shape or form! Is it any wonder that people feel utterly disenfranchised and ignored when FPTP produces such awful results?

But of course it is in neither the Conservative nor Labour parties interests to change the system because after all they are still the largest parties and, at the time of writing this post(!), still the most likely to win enough seats to form a Government (even if they require propping up to get there).

Elections to Westminster are just so completely and utterly broken :(

And actually I think this is the nub of the issue with our membership of the EU. In mainland Europe, there is more of a history of government by consensus, compromise and coalition. Our politics are polarized and tribal and that inherent flaw in our (and only our) idea of democracy is accentuated by the advent of the internet when in an age of information, people are overloaded and so just pick the pieces of information which support their view.

The mystery in the whole of the EU mess is why we have elected people to the EU parliament and not engaged there, the shame of the nation being Farage and his ilk who have been voted there and act as wreckers rather than trying to act constructively and mould the EU into what we would like it to be. It is always 'us' and 'them' with no acknowledgment that our nation is part of the whole which requires compromise and working together.

Our electoral system has been distilled from our historical rule by divine right or privilege or birthright. There has only ever been the 'haves' and those who have tried to rise up and take it from them. The legacy is an electoral process which many see as 'democratic' just because they get to vote every 5 years for a party which has the smorgasbord of policies which most align to what they would like. As someone else cleverer than me said, perhaps the Brexit dividend will be the end of the Tory party (and Labour too if you like) ... perhaps being replaced with a much broader variety of plants in the garden.
 

Howardh

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I think it may be more accurate to say that FPTP is democratic, but not in a particularly representative way.
I've often thought of a system where it's one MP per constituency that you vote for, but every MP in parliament has a vote to the power of the overall vote;

Top-of-head calculations to explain;

Party A win 290 seats with 41% of the nationwide vote.
B win 270 seats with 38% of the nationwide vote
C win 10 seats with 15% of the nationwide vote
etc etc
UKIP (or Green or Save The Whales or whatever) win 2 seats with 6% of the nationwide vote.

Divide each parties % by the number of MP's it has gives you a result of
Party A = each MP has the power of 0.13 of a vote, the weighting
B= 0.14
C = 1.5
UKIP = 3.

Still with me?

So when all the A's go to vote in the lobby the grand total they can muster is .13 (each MP weighting) x 290 (total number of MP's) = 39.7
B's = 37.8
C's = 15
UKIP (or Green or Real Ale Party or whatever) their two MP's can rustle up 6 "votes"

So although the "minor" parties have only a few MP's, they take into parliament the weighting of the public votes for them. On the downside - it looks complicated at first, a small party would have to have at least one MP elected via a constituency, it could give the far-right a lot more say then they should have if one gets elected; all MP's of the smaller parties would have to turn up and vote otherwise they have lost their weighting on a particular vote (although they could vote online by now....) and Election Night TV would be...er, interesting. No, make that infathomable. But then again we're used to cricket and railway ticketing.

Like it or not - and you probably won't!! - don't shoot the massager; at least I've had a go at trying to solve the issue of parliament not representing the votes of those who lost in a constituency, and would mean everyone's vote - even in a constituency where 60% habitually vote for one party, means something.
 

takno

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I've often thought of a system where it's one MP per constituency that you vote for, but every MP in parliament has a vote to the power of the overall vote;

Top-of-head calculations to explain;

Party A win 290 seats with 41% of the nationwide vote.
B win 270 seats with 38% of the nationwide vote
C win 10 seats with 15% of the nationwide vote
etc etc
UKIP (or Green or Save The Whales or whatever) win 2 seats with 6% of the nationwide vote.

Divide each parties % by the number of MP's it has gives you a result of
Party A = each MP has the power of 0.13 of a vote, the weighting
B= 0.14
C = 1.5
UKIP = 3.

Still with me?

So when all the A's go to vote in the lobby the grand total they can muster is .13 (each MP weighting) x 290 (total number of MP's) = 39.7
B's = 37.8
C's = 15
UKIP (or Green or Real Ale Party or whatever) their two MP's can rustle up 6 "votes"

So although the "minor" parties have only a few MP's, they take into parliament the weighting of the public votes for them. On the downside - it looks complicated at first, a small party would have to have at least one MP elected via a constituency, it could give the far-right a lot more say then they should have if one gets elected; all MP's of the smaller parties would have to turn up and vote otherwise they have lost their weighting on a particular vote (although they could vote online by now....) and Election Night TV would be...er, interesting. No, make that infathomable. But then again we're used to cricket and railway ticketing.

Like it or not - and you probably won't!! - don't shoot the massager; at least I've had a go at trying to solve the issue of parliament not representing the votes of those who lost in a constituency, and would mean everyone's vote - even in a constituency where 60% habitually vote for one party, means something.
It's not insane. The main issues I can see would be that several parties don't get any representation at all because they didn't get a single MP, and parties that only get one MP but a decent number of votes could result in one lunatic having a totally disproportionate vote share. Beyond keeping the consitituencies to a decent size there's a reason why they have more than 500 MPs
 

Groningen

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Nigel Farage was for the 6th time guest of Alex Jones. He wants to warn us all that the EU wants to take over the world.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it may be more accurate to say that FPTP is democratic, but not in a particularly representative way.

FPTP is fine if it is used as intended - for election of a local representative who goes on to become part of a (local or national) Government.

It's party politics that doesn't really work with it.
 

HSTEd

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I don't see that as an issue at all. As I understand it, voters have a separate vote for the regional list - and they presumably vote for a party in full knowledge (if they can be bothered) of who that party's candidates on the list are. Besides, the term 'rejected at constituency level' is some what loaded: It doesn't (usually) mean that loads of voters specifically voted against you - usually, it simply means that another candidate got more votes. There has been a recorded case of a candidate winning with just 24.5% of the votes (Belfast South, 2015 - and seeing as you mention Scotland, you might also want to check out Inverness in 1992) or losing with not far off twice that vote share (Winchester, 2010).

I would think a more serious problem with AMS is the way you end up with two categories of representatives: The ones who have local constituencies, and the ones who don't. That must cause differences in workloads, to say the least. But I wouldn't necessarily use even that as a reason to reject AMS, since every electoral system has some disadadvantages.

It is not inherent to AMS to have a seperate "list" vote.
And it is not necessary to have lists at all, in Baden-Wurtemmburg the "best near winners" from the party in question are the ones who receive top up seats.

I would prefer best-near-winner with a single ballot, in all honesty.


And I would like very large proportionality areas, like one for all of England.
That way minor parties are represented and top up seat members will tend to live close to concentrations of their supporters, as they will live near the constituency they stood in.
 

Mag_seven

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For those who may wish to vote UKIP in the forthcoming European Elections, this is the is the sort of odious individual who will be standing as a candidate:

Police are looking into remarks by UKIP candidate Carl Benjamin after Labour MP Jess Phillips accused him of malicious communications.

Mr Benjamin, who is standing in the European elections, tweeted that he "wouldn't even rape" Ms Phillips.

He has refused to apologise for the remark made in 2016, arguing that "any subject can be the subject of a joke."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48185348
 

Esker-pades

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For those who may wish to vote UKIP in the forthcoming European Elections, this is the is the sort of odious individual who will be standing as a candidate:
It is clear that Mr. Benjamin has no future as a comedian either. According to him, the alternative to him making awful rape jokes (and I use that word in its loosest possible form) is "a world devoid of humour". Rubbish.

It appears that the "go to" right-wing defence for being a complete pillock is "but it was just a joke". That doesn't make their action/words OK, it only proves that they are as bad at comedy as they are being a proper and respected representative of the people.
 

Howardh

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Much as I hate american franchise McDonalds, I have to doff my cap to this one - they have a poster showing their milkshakes and the slogan is something like, "want a milkshake? Me have it covered, even you, Tommy".

For those abroad, "Tommy" is an odious ultra right-winger who got covered in milkshake by a passer by. Normally I wouldn't condone that, however there are times when the exception proves the rule. At least "Tommy" can comfort himself in that the milk shake was white.
 
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