More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

trainmania100 said:

Are foot crossings allowed provided you stand back?

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Not if You are lineside of the access gate

Harbornite said:

Crap idea, people will still turn up at footcrossings and bridges.

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they do anyway

Ken H said:

I thought you needed a permit to take photographs on Network rail property

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What's your source for that?

Ken H said:

Stations are private places. Maybe they should insist on photography permits at £10 a go when there are kettles about.

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The huge delays are caused by passengers being "lineside". Quite apart from your idea being unworkable, it would make those problems worse.

yorkie said:

it would make those problems worse.

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Agreed. You'd get those people who don't read the fine print and think it'll allow them trackside access. Then one of them will be killed one day and all passes have to be revoked, leaving us back where we started.

The_Train said:

If they have then they should be making it common knowledge. This has to be equally about creating a deterrent going forward as much as punishing those who have committed an offence in this case

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Inncocent until proven guilty if they are charged with something.

How people quickly forget the falsely (and very publicly) accused Gatwick drone couple...

Ianno87 said:

Inncocent until proven guilty if they are charged with something.

How people quickly forget the falsely (and very publicly) accused Gatwick drone couple...

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I didn't mean name and shame (I don't particularly agree with this anyway), more just a statement to say that they have made arrests in connection with the trespass incidents. People only need to know that it's happened for it to become a deterrent

I remember "the man" at Hither Green depot letting myself and my friends wander around in the early 90's. While the place was not wall-to-wall third rail there was a scattering of it on the outer edges. I wanted to take a picture of some loco and there was a clump of weeds in the way. As I was about to grab them I realised they were growing out of the third rail so I backed off. Not sure how conductive weeds are but thankfully I never tested this.

But the fact that in the 90's you could get low level permission to go unaccompanied around a third rail enabled depot amazes me when I think about it.

So yes - times definitely have changed with regards to accessing the railway and in some cases quite recently.

The_Train said:

I didn't mean name and shame (I don't particularly agree with this anyway), more just a statement to say that they have made arrests in connection with the trespass incidents. People only need to know that it's happened for it to become a deterrent

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And for those getting arrested, charged and given a meaningful punishment to make it a better deterrent. (I.e. not "Bert was arrested for trespass on the line, he was given a fine of £100 and made to work 2 hours of community service")

Kite159 said:

And for those getting arrested, charged and given a meaningful punishment to make it a better deterrent. (I.e. not "Bert was arrested for trespass on the line, he was given a fine of £100 and made to work 2 hours of community service")

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OK. I will go and wander round airside and take photos at manchester Airport tomorrow.

A serious matter but to summarise my learning so far from reading this thread : (light hearted)
1 Spotters are all stupid and should really know better shouldn't they
2 Steam spotters and photters are all old and obtuse. They like to live in the past and deal in old money.
3 Those under age of 50 have no reasonable reason to like steam engines since they weren't around during their living memory
4 Pacers are much better and really excite some people
5 There are seven billion people on planet earth and unfortunately some of them are complete f*wits
6 Some f*wits like trains and fewer still, unfortunately trespass on the railway.
7 Expensive cameras and big lenses provide special privilege on the railway and when amongst non-photters or photters with small and insignificant cameras
8 If you're not a railway employee, spotter or photter, you are termed a 'random'
9 Randoms stand in front of photters and spoilt their photographs. They can like trains but don't know how to behave around them.
10 FS is magnetised and attracts a disproportionate amount of spotters, photters and randoms. Gay Crusader would put off the randoms though.
11 Photographing trains is stupid and serves no purpose because better images of the loco in question have already been taken. Therefore photographing FS is banned as it is completely pointless
12 Leander is a 'minor' locomotive (apparently)
13 FS should be sent to a museum where it can do no harm - or maybe back to Australia once a roo-catcher can be fitted to front buffer beam
14 Bigotry and intolerance is alive and kicking amongst erstwhile members of forums and social media

And more seriously as any railway trespass absolutely deserves .....
We don't need any banning of FS, people we don't like or understand, other than to deal with the said f*wits
Name & Shame via BTP
Calling out the shameless and any known rotten apples - they will exist wherever you fit and whatever your interests be it sport, birdwatching, etc, etc.
Repeat
Education - and there is much for everyone here, not withstanding the need for greater tolerance to those who are not committing the offence. Tarring all with similar brush regardless what camp you may or may not fit into should die out as it's divisive and unhelpful.
I have been a railway enthusiast for 50+ years and I don't trespass on the railway or disrespect people I meet along the way. I trespassed all over the place when in short trousers but I don't live in the past and more to the point, wouldn't want any youngsters today to do the same thing.

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atraindriver said:

Unfortunately we've learned from bitter experience that name-and-shame, prosecution, whatever simply doesn't work.
It might (and only might) stop that one particular individual, but it doesn't create the general lack of acceptance of the problem which what is actually needed, because all the idiots (be they enthusiasts, random members of the public, or railway staff who should know better) believe that they're exceptional and whatever-it-is doesn't actually apply to them.

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How difficult can it be to have a group of BTP on board the train, with it well known that anyone seen by the lineside is highly likely to be arrested? This simply hasn't been happening, or if it has it hasn't been being publicised. Likewise random patrols of linesides where the FS is timetabled to run. It's hardly random trespass, in order to see/photograph the train they have to be there at the location/time it passes, in more-or-less full view.

433N said:

Why try to exclude from the photo the effect it has on people ?

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Perhaps it is for the same reason that some build model railways; you take the human element out of the picture and frame everything as a perfect world in which you have full autonomy. No need for empathy there, just lots of anally retentive detail on the size of bricks, distance between sleepers...

I've run up to Waverley to see Scotsman a few times now. I've been out to South Queensferry to watch it cross gingerly over the bridge. I've stood on a packed platform at Dalmeny to get a glimpse of it (and felt immense sympathy for the 158 stuck behind it). There is an interesting story behind Flying Scotsman and, to some degree, there are elements of hope, hubris and nostalgia as well. Purely as a historic artifact it is a bit of of a Trigger's Broom, right? It is my 'gateway' engine for reigniting an interest in railways, which has now seen me tank it up to Waverley to see a few others as well (I keep misisng Union of South Africa!). Still... kettles... meh.


The solution I propose is to repaint Flying Scotsman in a flat black 'wartime' livery. Or invite the local yoof to give it a guerrilla redecoration by leaving it in a far siding somewhere. This will upset the gricers as it will be tricky to photograph, unflattering from all angles and deeply period-incorrect as well.

Saw this photo on Twitter today:



I wager that the gent on the right is of the old school "too much health and safety, what happened to personal responsibility?" brigade. Looks like he's enjoying himself, either way.

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I think those two are the kind of person who'll only care if their precious cameras took a 'tumble' off the bridge behind them.

Alanko said:

I wager that the gent on the right is of the old school "too much health and safety, what happened to personal responsibility?" brigade. Looks like he's enjoying himself, either way.

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I hope the person taking this picture is ok....looks a bit too close

atraindriver said:

I get the impression that you really don't understand the sheer numbers of people involved. It's not a couple of trespassers at only one location during the journey, it's a couple of idiots like those pictured above at one point, then a group like those videoed at the next bridge, a couple more climbing the fence in the field after that, a family or two messing around at the next footpath crossing and so on and so on for the whole trip - and that's ignoring the people who aren't doing anything wrong but who's behaviour suggests that they should be gently watched in case, in their ignorance, they do put themselves at risk.

You do realise that in much of the country BTP struggle to round up the half-a-dozen officers to police a football train, don't you? There's absolutely no way they could pull together enough officers to arrest the number of people trespassing when Scotsman is around, even if those people docilely cooperated with being arrested. And every arrest means the arresting officer gets to take that arrested person to the nearest police station with a custody suite, which then means there one fewer police officer for the rest of the journey...
The local police are no better off; they'll often have fewer than half-a-dozen effectives at any one time across an entire division, so it's not as if they can call up a few van-loads to assist BTP.

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I couldn't have put it better myself. In addition to your post, if BTP did have enough resources to place officers on services running ahead of steams specials like this, you would still end up having to stop the network while the driver stops this train, said officer then has to leave the train, deal with said trespasser, attempt to bring them either on board to said service or await further officers with a vehicle to allow the officers to transport their prisoner to custody. All in all, it's one of those nice ideas but is totally impractical.

trainmania100 said:

I hope the person taking this picture is ok....looks a bit too close

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The person taking the photo was actually the driver of the XC Service behind, having had to bring is train to a stop after the signal was thrown to a red aspect just in front of him.

Are we sure that those two are actually there for the Flying Scotsman ?

The one at the back has their camera pointed at the other one. I'm thinking this might just be a photoshoot for the summer M&S catalogue and the bloke at the front is a professional model.

trainmania100 said:

I hope the person taking this picture is ok....looks a bit too close

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As already noted, it was a driver!

atraindriver said:

I get the impression that you really don't understand the sheer numbers of people involved. It's not a couple of trespassers at only one location during the journey, it's a couple of idiots like those pictured above at one point, then a group like those videoed at the next bridge, a couple more climbing the fence in the field after that, a family or two messing around at the next footpath crossing and so on and so on for the whole trip - and that's ignoring the people who aren't doing anything wrong but who's behaviour suggests that they should be gently watched in case, in their ignorance, they do put themselves at risk.

You do realise that in much of the country BTP struggle to round up the half-a-dozen officers to police a football train, don't you? There's absolutely no way they could pull together enough officers to arrest the number of people trespassing when Scotsman is around, even if those people docilely cooperated with being arrested. And every arrest means the arresting officer gets to take that arrested person to the nearest police station with a custody suite, which then means there one fewer police officer for the rest of the journey...
The local police are no better off; they'll often have fewer than half-a-dozen effectives at any one time across an entire division, so it's not as if they can call up a few van-loads to assist BTP.

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Yes I realise BTP are thinly spread, but we’re not talking about a massive commitment. A specific train, which only comes out once in a blue moon, and a crime which is pretty easy to detect. Also, as someone alluded to elsewhere, I don’t think they’ll be needing the helicopter to help keep track of grandad escaping across fields! A few well-publicised £1000k fines would certainly make many people think.

If that doesn’t work then by all means start to think about bans or other restrictions.

I really don’t understand why some people seem to feel that a ban should be the first resort. Yes it’s a viable option, and one which might be necessary should nothing else meaningfully deal with the problem, however I don’t feel we are at that point (yet).

And if we’re going to ban a few things which cause problems, can we do something to prevent various types of sports fans from travelling en masse, please, and while we’re at it ground all evening services which many users treat as a toilet!

433N said:

Are we sure that those two are actually there for the Flying Scotsman ?

The one at the back has their camera pointed at the other one. I'm thinking this might just be a photoshoot for the summer M&S catalogue and the bloke at the front is a professional model.

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Post of the week!

You might want to put a few smileys on though, given the history of this thread!

bramling said:

Also, as someone alluded to elsewhere, I don’t think they’ll be needing the helicopter to help keep track of grandad escaping across fields! A few well-publicised £1000k fines would certainly make many people think.

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As I said in my post on the previous page, shooting fish in a barrel. This is an easy catch, especially as some of the tresspassers were supposedly land owners.

61653 HTAFC said:

Post of the week!

You might want to put a few smileys on though, given the history of this thread!

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Yep. Made me laugh too.

bramling said:

Yes I realise BTP are thinly spread, but we’re not talking about a massive commitment. A specific train, which only comes out once in a blue moon, and a crime which is pretty easy to detect. Also, as someone alluded to elsewhere, I don’t think they’ll be needing the helicopter to help keep track of grandad escaping across fields! A few well-publicised £1000k fines would certainly make many people think.

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The reason people break regulations like this is because they can get away with it, because the probability of either getting told to move on or hit by a train is very small. The only way you can deter people is with harsh punishments AND a moderate to high probability of being caught. We have fines, penalty points, and prosecutions for motoring offences, drivers still commit them (deliberately as well as by accident), because they can, they gain something with very low probability of incurring a cost. I think one point being made is that the resources necessary to make an individual think the risk of being caught is not worth the benefit is far too large, expensive and unwieldy to be of practical use.

Ken H said:

they do anyway

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I think the point was that *more* people would turn up, leading to even larger unsupervised crowds in locations which really aren't appropriate for them.

Alanko said:

I wager that the gent on the right is of the old school "too much health and safety, what happened to personal responsibility?" brigade. Looks like he's enjoying himself, either way.

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My observation is that these two may be related in some way? Both have Nikon DSLRs and are also both using similar tripods and graduated filters. Not the cheapest of gear but maybe too much of a coincidence otherwise?
Having said this I would suggest that "all the gear but no idea" could apply since getting a photograph so close to the target would produce a rubbish result - in my humble opinion of course.
A hefty fine in line with delays incurred by XC Trains would possibly encourage these two not to reoffend?

Someone said earlier they saw bigotry on this thread; for the avoidance of doubt this should be reported using the report button straight away (don't react to it, republish it, or refer to it, as this creates extra work when dealing with it).

trainmania100 said:

I hope the person taking this picture is ok....looks a bit too close

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I am sure they are OK being in close proximity to those specimens. People like that are more a danger to themselves!

Ken H said:

OK. I will go and wander round airside and take photos at manchester Airport tomorrow.

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You could quite easily get shot.

Ken H said:

OK. I will go and wander round airside and take photos at manchester Airport tomorrow.

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Completely different as airports have proper security fencing/barriers and security staff to enforce/police it. If they didn't, then yes, you'd have Joe Public wandering around taking selfies on the side of the runway.