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TfL: Bus driver breaches TfL policy over disability priority

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Wolfie

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https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ver-refuses-to-let-her-board-as-a4135276.html
A wheelchair user today shared the "unbearably frustrating" moment a London bus driver refused to let her board. Katie Pennick, 23, filmed the driver allowing up to eight able-bodied passengers onto the packed bus in north London - while refusing to lower the ramp for her wheelchair. Ms Pennick, a freelance audio producer, believes it was because two buggies were already on the 253 service as it stopped outside Manor House station on Sunday afternoon.

A 2017 Supreme Court ruling established wheelchair users must be given priority on buses. But Ms Pennick told the Standard she is refused access “multiple times a week”.
“It’s like I am valued less than able-bodied passengers,” she said. “It makes me angry at the world.”

Transport for London (TfL) said it would investigate the incident "immediately".

Ms Pennick, of Stoke Newington, had already been turned away from a 141 service in Newington Green earlier that afternoon.

And the same thing happened when she arrived at Manor House for the second stage of her journey. She said: “I was at the front of the queue and flagged down the bus. As the bus approached, the driver saw me and started shaking his head, which often happens.

“I got my phone out to record what was going to happen. He didn’t put the ramp down and let everyone else on. There was five, six or seven walking people as well as a mother with a buggy. I think there was already another buggy on the bus, which is why he didn’t let me on.

“I asked if he could get the ramp and she said there was no space. I told him wheelchair users get priority – it’s the law – and he point blank denied this.

Claire Mann, TfL’s director of bus operations, said: "We’re very sorry about Katie Pennick’s experience.
“It is essential wheelchair users are given priority in the allocated area on buses and clearly something has gone wrong here. We will investigate this with the bus company immediately.”

This driver, whose face can be clearly seen on the video, has been caught bang to rights breaking UK law, TfL's policy and byelaws. Thankfully TfL are taking this very seriously.

In my view as a bare minimum he needs immediate retraining. If it is clear that his training was recent, and he has just ignored it for his personal convenience, then he should not be working on the streets of London at all - dismissal and hopefully removal of his license should follow. If on the other hand his training was deficient then his employer should suffer a major financial penalty and, if things do not improve, should have all TfL contracts removed and not be invited to bid for any further TfL contracts.

Draconian enforcement is the only way to make some people obey the law!
 
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Mwanesh

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Loose his licence for this.He can be dismissed yes but loose his licence thats too much.Every one needs a second chance.Over reaction on your part.
 

Wolfie

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Loose his licence for this.He can be dismissed yes but loose his licence thats too much.Every one needs a second chance.Over reaction on your part.
To be fair, if you read what I wrote my suggestion of license removal was in the extreme case that he was recently trained and just couldn't be bothered. Alternatively he could be made to spend a day, unpaid, using a wheelchair to travel around London on buses to sensitise him to the issues.
 
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CM

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Surely it should be first come first served with regards to space on a bus? People in wheelchairs keep saying they wanted to be treated equally to everyone else yet when it suits them, they want priority over everyone else. Can't have it both ways!

If the bus is full and you can't get on then simply wait on the next one or find alternative arrangments just like EVERYONE else has to do!
 

Samuel88

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Surely it should be first come first served with regards to space on a bus? People in wheelchairs keep saying they wanted to be treated equally to everyone else yet when it suits them, they want priority over everyone else. Can't have it both ways!

If the bus is full and you can't get on then simply wait on the next one or find alternative arrangments just like EVERYONE else has to do!
What a disgraceful thing to say, people with disabilities (including me) face many challenges, so a little bit of sympathy wouldn't go amiss!
 

CM

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What a disgraceful thing to say, people with disabilities (including me) face many challenges, so a little bit of sympathy wouldn't go amiss!

EDITED.

I may have worded my post wrong, I've absolutley nothing against disabled people at all and fully understand that they can face challenges in life.

What I do have a problem with is people who say they want treated equally, but then when it suits them, they suddenly want priority over everone else. Equality would be if a bus is full and you can't get on, then, just like everone else, you have to wait for the next one or find alternative means of getting to wherever you're going.

This doesn't just apply to disabilities by the way, it applies equally to other things as well.
 
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Busaholic

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EDITED.

I may have worded my post wrong, I've absolutley nothing against disabled people at all and fully understand that they can face challenges in life.

What I do have a problem with is people who say they want treated equally, but then when it suits them, they suddenly want priority over everone else. Equality would be if a bus is full and you can't get on, then, just like everone else, you have to wait for the next one or find alternative means of getting to wherever you're going.

This doesn't just apply to disabilities by the way, it applies equally to other things as well.
I suggest you read and digest the ES article before commenting further. The complainant was first in the queue for the bus, but the driver allowed up to eight other people who had arrived after her to board, so how precisely is that demanding priority? She had apparently experienced something similar in her immediately previous journey to Manor House from Newington Green on a 141 bus. The creation of the legislation was only necessary because of attitudes prevalent amongst some which you've blatantly exhibited here.
 

CM

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And the two buggies that were clearly stated as being onboard the already packed vehicle? Perhaps neither of these buggies could be folded or the parents were unable to for various reasons? What would you reccomend then? Just turf the prams off the bus and let the wheelchair on and then two parents with young babies left out in the cold waiting for the next bus?

If I'm waiting at a bus stop and the bus I want turns up full, I let it go and get the next one or go for a bus on different route. I certainly don't go running to the nearest toilet paper distributor to complain about it.
 

ComUtoR

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This driver, whose face can be clearly seen on the video, has been caught bang to rights breaking UK law

Could you please provide me a link or quote as to what the law states please. I have heard about 'the law' but cannot find anything.

Thanks in advance.
 

NotATrainspott

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And the two buggies that were clearly stated as being onboard the already packed vehicle? Perhaps neither of these buggies could be folded or the parents were unable to for various reasons? What would you reccomend then? Just turf the prams off the bus and let the wheelchair on and then two parents with young babies left out in the cold waiting for the next bus?

If I'm waiting at a bus stop and the bus I want turns up full, I let it go and get the next one or go for a bus on different route. I certainly don't go running to the nearest toilet paper distributor to complain about it.

Yes. That is precisely what what found to be legal and required for cases like these. The consideration is that the inconvenience to the parent+child is less than the inconvenience to the wheelchair user. Wheelchair users typically have far less mobility than a parent with even the largest of buggies.
 

MarlowDonkey

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And the two buggies that were clearly stated as being onboard the already packed vehicle?

Was it ever clearly established that the driver is expected to demand that the buggies be removed from the wheelchair area and what the driver is supposed to do if the owners of the buggies refuse?
 

goldisgood

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People have this weird perception that we [wheelchair users] have endless amounts of time. But I have places to be and don’t have the time to be waiting around for buses all day
Surely everyone else has places to be? Whilst it is the law that wheelchair users get priority, and I do believe that if the buggies could have been folded up then the driver should have made sure that they were, but if not then what happens? Should the buggy users be kicked off as another person who needs the space can't get on the bus which is full? Any able-bodied passenger or anyone with a buggy would have to wait for the next bus. Whilst I sympathise with the wheelchair user, I feel as if it is tough luck in some ways.
 

CM

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Yes. That is precisely what what found to be legal and required for cases like these. The consideration is that the inconvenience to the parent+child is less than the inconvenience to the wheelchair user. Wheelchair users typically have far less mobility than a parent with even the largest of buggies.

Double standards then, it's ok to make a parent with a pram to wait for the next bus but not a wheelchair user. It should be first some first served, it would save a lot of hassle and arguments.
 

carlberry

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Could you please provide me a link or quote as to what the law states please. I have heard about 'the law' but cannot find anything.

Thanks in advance.
There was a court case in the recent past where somebody took First to court the outcome of which was a judge's ruling that said something like a wheelchair user should have priority over the wheelchair place and the company (i.e. driver) should attempt to ensure they do.
 

ComUtoR

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There was a court case in the recent past where somebody took First to court the outcome of which was a judge's ruling that said something like a wheelchair user should have priority over the wheelchair place and the company (i.e. driver) should attempt to ensure they do.

Yeah, I've been reading up on it. His case was specific to FirstGroup and their policy being discriminatory. I'm reading that the judgement went to say that they should do more to accommodate wheelchair passengers but falls short of kicking passengers off and that if the space is occupied then other than there being a sign saying non wheelchair passengers are required to vacate the space, they still can't force someone out the space and they can in fact, flat out refuse.

The Driver can then try to make a case and pressurise that person to leave, IF they feel they can Again, they cannot force them out the space.

I'm stuck on the 'law' part of this all. I've read on news sites that people are saying a law has been broken but if the Driver cannot kick the passenger out the space thenthe wheelchair user still has to wait for the next bus. It also goes to suggest that if the space is already occupied by a wheelchair passenger then then they would still have to get the next bus. It also states that if the bus would exceed its occupancy then the wheelchair passenger can still be refused :/
 

Darklord8899

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And the two buggies that were clearly stated as being onboard the already packed vehicle? Perhaps neither of these buggies could be folded or the parents were unable to for various reasons? What would you reccomend then? Just turf the prams off the bus and let the wheelchair on and then two parents with young babies left out in the cold waiting for the next bus?
....in a word yes....
Lifted from my Local operator's Conditions of carriage....

"In common with all other passengers, whenever the wheelchair space is needed by a wheelchair user, passengers with unfolded buggies must move to make it available. In order to allow a wheelchair user to board, any passenger occupying the wheelchair space with an unfolded buggy should fold it and place it in the luggage rack. Alternatively, they may choose to get off the bus, in which case a receipt will be issued to allow them to complete their journey on a following bus free of charge."

I don't think there is anything unfair with the above, so whichever buggy was in the wheelchair space should have folded it or had to leave the bus for the wheelchair user to board.
 

goldisgood

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....in a word yes....
Lifted from my Local operator's Conditions of carriage....

"In common with all other passengers, whenever the wheelchair space is needed by a wheelchair user, passengers with unfolded buggies must move to make it available. In order to allow a wheelchair user to board, any passenger occupying the wheelchair space with an unfolded buggy should fold it and place it in the luggage rack. Alternatively, they may choose to get off the bus, in which case a receipt will be issued to allow them to complete their journey on a following bus free of charge."

I don't think there is anything unfair with the above, so whichever buggy was in the wheelchair space should have folded it or had to leave the bus for the wheelchair user to board.
I fail to see how it is fair - why should another passenger have to leave the bus so that another passenger who needs the space can get on? Shouldn't all passengers should be treated as equals?
 

Ianno87

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I suggest you read and digest the ES article before commenting further. The complainant was first in the queue for the bus, but the driver allowed up to eight other people who had arrived after her to board, so how precisely is that demanding priority? She had apparently experienced something similar in her immediately previous journey to Manor House from Newington Green on a 141 bus. The creation of the legislation was only necessary because of attitudes prevalent amongst some which you've blatantly exhibited here.

A genuine problem wheelchair users face is not being able to maneouvre themselves as fast as able bodied people can - so will repeatedly find themselves at the back of the queue (people generally show no curteousy whatsover), so need some sort of protection against this behaviour.

Whilst I don't pretend to fully understand the challenges wheelchair users face day to day, pushing a buggy for the last 3 years has been an eye opener to how so many people just don't care. People shoving to the front of a queue for lifts, doging under queue barriers, because they can get there faster than you.

Yes. That is precisely what what found to be legal and required for cases like these. The consideration is that the inconvenience to the parent+child is less than the inconvenience to the wheelchair user. Wheelchair users typically have far less mobility than a parent with even the largest of buggies.

The only time I'd feel reluctant to fold my buggy is if my child was asleep... but nearly all my bus travel is around town so I'd just get off and walk if I had to. I have been refused travel due to lack of space... I just walked and didn't kick up a fuss.

Double standards then, it's ok to make a parent with a pram to wait for the next bus but not a wheelchair user. It should be first some first served, it would save a lot of hassle and arguments.

However, without wishing to be controversial, surely it comes to a point where on some *very* frequent bus routes (I'm talking every 3-4 mins or better, like is common in London), if a wheelchair user has to wait... is that *really* such a big problem (I do recognise that is against the law)? For example, in cases where in the time taken to get people off, clear space, etc, the next bus will probably have turned up anyway!


Exceptions apply if freezing cold or chucking it down with rain, etc.
 
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carlberry

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Yeah, I've been reading up on it. His case was specific to FirstGroup and their policy being discriminatory. I'm reading that the judgement went to say that they should do more to accommodate wheelchair passengers but falls short of kicking passengers off and that if the space is occupied then other than there being a sign saying non wheelchair passengers are required to vacate the space, they still can't force someone out the space and they can in fact, flat out refuse.

The Driver can then try to make a case and pressurise that person to leave, IF they feel they can Again, they cannot force them out the space.

I'm stuck on the 'law' part of this all. I've read on news sites that people are saying a law has been broken but if the Driver cannot kick the passenger out the space thenthe wheelchair user still has to wait for the next bus. It also goes to suggest that if the space is already occupied by a wheelchair passenger then then they would still have to get the next bus. It also states that if the bus would exceed its occupancy then the wheelchair passenger can still be refused :/
The law is the disability discrimination act and the First case has refined some of the grey areas. However that would be a case against the company and would also take evidence from the bus's CCTV instead of 'guilty by UTube'. The company itself can have different policies and it would be up to them to take it up with the driver. Even in the conditions of carriage mentioned above it dosent suggests that the driver can turf the passenger off, just that they can offer them a receipt which in itself appears to fail consumer law as the company would have broken the contract and, therefore, the customer would be owed a full refund.
 

GaryMcEwan

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Surely it should be first come first served with regards to space on a bus? People in wheelchairs keep saying they wanted to be treated equally to everyone else yet when it suits them, they want priority over everyone else. Can't have it both ways!

If the bus is full and you can't get on then simply wait on the next one or find alternative arrangments just like EVERYONE else has to do!

Wow, that's a frightening response. You should maybe go and read the recent legislation and also the Equality Act 2010.
 

GaryMcEwan

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And the two buggies that were clearly stated as being onboard the already packed vehicle? Perhaps neither of these buggies could be folded or the parents were unable to for various reasons? What would you reccomend then? Just turf the prams off the bus and let the wheelchair on and then two parents with young babies left out in the cold waiting for the next bus?

If I'm waiting at a bus stop and the bus I want turns up full, I let it go and get the next one or go for a bus on different route. I certainly don't go running to the nearest toilet paper distributor to complain about it.

Or maybe it's the case that the parents with the prams were being just downright rude? I've seen it far too often where parents with prams have refused outright to fold their pram and stamped their feet. They are no better than the children in the prams.
 

CM

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Wow, that's a frightening response. You should maybe go and read the recent legislation and also the Equality Act 2010.

In what way is my response "frightening"?

Equality act, the clue is in the name. Equality means treating everyone EQUALLY, ie the SAME. If an able bodied person can't get on a bus because it is full then why should a wheelchair user or a parent with a pram?

If a wheelchair user can't get on a bus because it is already at maximum capacity, do you just throw people off to let the wheelchair user on? No, they wait for the next bus like everyone else.

If a wheelchair user can't get on a bus because there is already a wheelchair user on the bus do you throw the wheelchair user already on the bus off to allow the other person on? No.

I've come across plenty of rude wheelchair users who act like they should be treated like sodding royalty because they're in a wheelchair and if they don't get what they want they get shouty and abusive.........or write to a local rag.
 

GaryMcEwan

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In what way is my response "frightening"?

Equality act, the clue is in the name. Equality means treating everyone EQUALLY, ie the SAME. If an able bodied person can't get on a bus because it is full then why should a wheelchair user or a parent with a pram?

If a wheelchair user can't get on a bus because it is already at maximum capacity, do you just throw people off to let the wheelchair user on? No, they wait for the next bus like everyone else.

If a wheelchair user can't get on a bus because there is already a wheelchair user on the bus do you throw the wheelchair user already on the bus off to allow the other person on? No.

I've come across plenty of rude wheelchair users who act like they should be treated like sodding royalty because they're in a wheelchair and if they don't get what they want they get shouty and abusive.........or write to a local rag.

This is 2019 for god's sake not 1979. You do know that 'Disability' is one of the protected characteristics of the Equality Act? Having a child in a pram isn't.

Would you expect a wheelchair user to lift themselves out of their chair, fold and try and find a seat if the wheelchair space was full?
 

CM

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This is 2019 for god's sake not 1979. You do know that 'Disability' is one of the protected characteristics of the Equality Act? Having a child in a pram isn't.

Would you expect a wheelchair user to lift themselves out of their chair, fold and try and find a seat if the wheelchair space was full?

No, I wouldn't expect a wheelchair user to do that. I'd expect them to wait for the next bus. You've clearly missed my point or you're just ignoring it completley.
 

RT4038

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The only way round all of this is for the wheelchair space to be locked shut when no wheelchair is occupying the space, and for the driver to unlock it if a wheelchair passenger wishes to travel. A separate space to be provided for a buggy. More than one wheelchair or one buggy then the passenger has to wait for the next bus.
 

GaryMcEwan

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No, I wouldn't expect a wheelchair user to do that. I'd expect them to wait for the next bus. You've clearly missed my point or you're just ignoring it completley.

Either you haven't read the legislation or the Equality Act, or you're just being provocative.
 

CM

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Either you haven't read the legislation or the Equality Act, or you're just being provocative.

Or it could be I've completley misunderstood what the word Equality means, I've always thought it meant treating people EQUALLY but hey ho......it must mean something else.
 

Darklord8899

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I fail to see how it is fair - why should another passenger have to leave the bus so that another passenger who needs the space can get on? Shouldn't all passengers should be treated as equals?

.....because a wheelchair space is for someone in a wheelchair, not for an able bodied person or a buggy.....
 

CM

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I think this is an arugment that nobody is ever going to win and will just become more heated, perhaps the admins should lock the topic before anyone gets offended/upset?
 
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