They're full because they're fast.
That doesn't mean to say that with a better journey time, some people wouldn't prefer trafalgar square etc (Charing Cross) or Waterloo.
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They're full because they're fast.
That doesn't mean to say that with a better journey time, some people wouldn't prefer trafalgar square etc (Charing Cross) or Waterloo.
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BluePenguin
On Moderation
That is a huge assumption to make without knowing the final destinations any of the people who use them, some of which may not be using them out of choice. It's highly unlikely that every single person will be wanting North London or beyond.
In most cases for peope don't it is logical to take the fastest possible service to London and then change as a direct alternative is up to 30 minutes slower. If the direct services were returned to the usual journey times then HS services would see a decline, freeing up capacity for people who DO want North of London and further afield.
brad465
Established Member
Further to that point they're full because there isn't enough stock for most services to "comfortably" accommodate the peak demand. This especially applies to High speed services, with many in agreement there are not enough 395s right now. If a new franchise saw faster services into London Bridge & co. it might even stop a number people driving across Kent to Ebbsfleet and ease the HS load.
Further to that point they're full because there isn't enough stock for most services to "comfortably" accommodate the peak demand. This especially applies to High speed services, with many in agreement there are not enough 395s right now. If a new franchise saw faster services into London Bridge & co. it might even stop a number people driving across Kent to Ebbsfleet and ease the HS load.
Quite.
As someone who spent his formative years in Kent in the pre HS1 years, I find the idea of having to railhead in Ebbsfleet to get a train to London ludicrous.
Ashford and its surrounds have an excellent main line to the West End, which is frankly wasted at present.
coppercapped
Established Member
Before these HS1 services started there were letters to the press and posts to the Usenet railway news groups (and possibly here as well) suggesting that these services would never be a success (in the sense that people would use them) because:Further to that point they're full because there isn't enough stock for most services to "comfortably" accommodate the peak demand. This especially applies to High speed services, with many in agreement there are not enough 395s right now. If a new franchise saw faster services into London Bridge & co. it might even stop a number people driving across Kent to Ebbsfleet and ease the HS load.
- a premium was to be charged on the fares for the HS1 part of the journey and
- the services served the wrong area of London as people in Kent were only interested in reaching the traditional termini.
What a surprise!
It is absolutely clear that if trains do not serve the destination(s) that people desire to reach then, fast or not, people would not use them.
Where in the post you quote does it suggest that there are not people who desire to go to St P?
Surely the point is that there are plenty of people who would desire to go to Charing Cross/Waterloo, and they are not adequately served at present.
brad465
Established Member
I remember an interview on the news when the preview service was launched in mid-2009, where a senior SE staff member said they were hoping the service would encourage people not to drive - if anything this particular case has encouraged the latter. I also know colleagues living in West Malling and nearby who drive to Ebbsfleet occasionally; if the new Thameslink service takes off on this line as hoped, I'm hoping they and others in the area who might make the drive don't have to anymore.
Indeed. I did read that services on the Maidstone East route were reduced after the opening of HS1 (in spite of the area not benefitting from the new route) which would have exacerbated the issue.
Metal_gee_man
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Hey if I'm needing to head North on the ECML, MML or the WCML St Pancras is totally the correct termini for me because no one willingly wants to wheel their luggage onto the Underground through choice, Stratford Int is fantastic for journeys for the GEML so what's there to hate about HS1, in addition late night events, West End show and general nights out now don't need you to be at Charing Cross or Victoria by 11pm to get home, the last St Pancras service towards the Kent coast is 00.12 to Ashford with connections to Canterbury West or Dover Priory, that service is normally pretty busy so there is obviously a demand.
So the wrong side of London argument is total bulls*#t.
So the wrong side of London argument is total bulls*#t.
urpert
Member
The Cannon St fasts disappeared at about that time, yes. Maidstone’s train service is laughably bad compared to similarly sized towns in Kent.
Indeed.
Once upon a time there was a fast service from Maidstone East to London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross !
Might have been on the weekend though.
brad465
Established Member
I was still Crayford based back in 2009, but living in Maidstone now I have to agree the service is awful. The only upside perhaps is that a Maidstone - London Terminals ticket is very terminal flexible, so often the Underground can be avoided. It's also nice when engineering works divert CHX trains down the MDE line (well for Maidstone & Otford at least); when they happen I believe they're faster than the peak HS services in terms of getting to a London terminal.
I don't think you've been to Deal yet.
Further to that point they're full because there isn't enough stock for most services to "comfortably" accommodate the peak demand. This especially applies to High speed services, with many in agreement there are not enough 395s right now. If a new franchise saw faster services into London Bridge & co. it might even stop a number people driving across Kent to Ebbsfleet and ease the HS load.
Off peak as well stood again yesterday mid morning from Ashford to London as it always seems on Sundays.
Mikey C
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The St Pancras services are certainly popular with people travelling TO Kent!
While not as ideal for commuters, the centre of gravity has shifted slightly in the last few years, with Docklands, Kings Cross, Old Street etc being far more popular destinations than they were before, so not all commuters will be City workers, a stone's throw from Cannon Street
While not as ideal for commuters, the centre of gravity has shifted slightly in the last few years, with Docklands, Kings Cross, Old Street etc being far more popular destinations than they were before, so not all commuters will be City workers, a stone's throw from Cannon Street
Many people are going to King's Cross for work, shopping and leisure. The redevelopment is quite amazing and many businesses are moving there or setting up. And there's a lot more to come.
Yes, the current half-hourly stopper between Ashford and Tonbridge is an underuse of the infrastructure. An express could easily be accommodated there (23 mins I timed Ashford - Tonbridge on a fast diversion last year).
Although i'm being a little bit pedantic, there is one scheduled service a day that runs fast from Tonbridge to Ashford - the 09:22 London Charing Cross to Ashford International (Tonbridge 10:11, Ashford International 10:39 in the working timetable). Not quite as quick a journey as the ones in the low 20 minutes that @yorksrob and others have experienced during diversions/disruption, but still a bit quicker than normal nonetheless! Pluckley is also skipped by a handful of services during the peak, shaving off a few minutes.
Ah, is that still running ?
Fair doos if so, but I think we need a decent competitive service from Ashford to Vharing Cross.
1. Lots of people seem to be forgetting that lots of smaller stations got frequency improvements in 2009 and undoing those would be unpopular. It also saw usage at many of those stations increase significantly with +ve revenue impacts.
2. SE has quite an interesting distribution of station usage figures vs locations /infrastructure (i.e. it doesn't have the equivalent of 4 track to Basingstoke) which suggests that the right call was made in the 2009 changes to add more stops in that the difference between the traditionally larger stations and medium and small ones has closed up over the decades and the large kent stations total share of passengers has decreased over time.
2. SE has quite an interesting distribution of station usage figures vs locations /infrastructure (i.e. it doesn't have the equivalent of 4 track to Basingstoke) which suggests that the right call was made in the 2009 changes to add more stops in that the difference between the traditionally larger stations and medium and small ones has closed up over the decades and the large kent stations total share of passengers has decreased over time.
Class 466
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Those smaller stations all had 2tph pre 2009 (except Pluckley - but then again I don’t see why that needs 2tph off peak!). Plus 2 fasts per hour. This is purely reinstating the service that was there before and shouldn’t have ever been gotten rid off.
Much like a fast service between Ashford & Victoria via Maidstone (both are now semifast/stoppers on opposite ends) and between Victoria & Dover/Ramsgate.
How I miss the days of a decent, useable mainline service down there.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
Don't worry I'll let you off being pedantic.
I am aware of that service but forget to mention it in my post silly me.Coincidently it was around this time last year that I caught that service (the 09:25 as it was back then) on my way back from Stanstead airport after my holiday. I am never usually in London that early so had not had the opportunity to try it before. It was more of a faff than getting off at Stratford for a direct train home although struggling with my suitcase across London was worth it.
I remember in the timetable that the section between Tonbridge to Ashford was timetabled to take 25 minutes but it only took 20 minutes and so we arrived into Ashford early. In terms of speed the train was blindingly fast, the excitement as we whizzed through countryside was immense. It was a quite nice not stopping every 10 minutes or so at a quiet station where nobody got on or off. The train even bounced up and down a little bit in some sections. It felt like a proper mainline should. It showed how underused through lines are. I look forward to the days when hopefully I'll be able to experience this journey more often and in the reverse direction.
Before the train carried on to Ramsgate via Canterbury but since May it doesn't anymore for some reason. Also it is timabled to take 30 minutes to get to Ashford which is strange.
Another month of TfL data is out after they took over a Southeastern station and manned it all day long (even the terminals don't get that). More big growth. The suburban DOO network must have true passenger figures severely under counted. Today I passed through 9 metro stations. Only Sidcup had barriers in operation. https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.u...n-continues-strong-growth-since-tfl-takeover/
Kite159
Veteran Member
Agreed about the under count of passengers, how many when travelling between a pair of stations with no barriers will bother tapping in, keeping a contactless card as 'RPI insurance' (unless the technology has improved so the scanners used by the RPIs can tell if a card has been used to tap in rather than placing a mark to charge the Max fare if not).
The chances of being checked on a Southeastern Metro train are miniscule. Out of around 1000+ trips I've been checked twice. Both were unusual occasions with major events on - a music festival and football game. I'd estimate eight out of 10 stations are open so anyone not travelling to central London can evade extremely easily.
SE is a freebie for the vast bulk of the metro area. Just look at how many people get off at Shortlands and walk up the hill to Bromley town centre to avoid the barriers at Bromley South. Its been like this for a couple of generations now and there are many people who have grown up with it, had kids and now them and their kids are travelling about for nothing. It's always amazed me how successive TOCs have never appeared to give a monkey's how much revenue is lost or how intimidating it can be travelling on the system for vulnerable individuals, especially at night. Its part of the fabric of SE London for many: the train is free. People take that as a given. If TFL took it over and enforced people buying tickets they would make an absolute killing.
Alteran Ancient
Member
I frequently see RPIs at Bromley South, either waiting at the gateline or on the countrybound bridge, trying to catch people changing from the metro onto the mainline. I can understand the theory behind trying to catch people making connections there, but chances are they'll be checked by a guard if part of their journey involves a mainliner. I don't know why they would focus their efforts at a gated station when there are plenty of ungated (and unstaffed) metro stations that are far more likely to be hotspots for fare evaders.
The TOCs (and Southeastern in particular) must lose a lot of revenue via fare evasion when compared to networks like TfL. I'm all for seeing an increased presence of revenue protection, both in the form of additional gatelines and spot checks. When I'm in mainland Europe, I seem to get spot-checked quite frequently. I was checked in Prague a few weeks ago, and I am also regularly checked when travelling in Germany. It must be effective, else they wouldn't bother.
Brixton is perfect station for free riders into London. Close to central London by bus (or tube) but no barriers. You can come all the way from zone 5 or 6 and only pay single bus or tube fare. Madness. Fare evasion is rife on this line, only Orpington and Bromley South have gates.
Brixton is also absolute mess of a station...
Class 466
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Stagecoach have now launched legal action against the DFT. Expect a long delay to this and any other franchise awards! https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...t-dept-over-rail-franchise-bids-idUKKCN1SE1ZQ
i4n
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I'm one of them, work within spitting distance of Charing Cross but go to St Pancras and then back down as it's quicker than the stopping mainline trains to Charing Cross; bring back the fasts or semi-fasts and I'll be on them like a shot. Similar journey times and cheaper season ticket as I won't need to pay the HS extra. From my trains there are a large amount of people traipsing the same way in the mornings that I'm sure would do something similar as well.
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