St Pancras to Leicester in 60, can it be done?

38Cto15E · 8 May 2019

I have just booked on the 2031 HST (GTi) from St Pancras to Leicester next week (after a couple of days on the GA37's) and I have been looking at how quick this train does the STP to LEI section, on May 2nd it did the journey in 60 and1/2 minutes, so near the hour, but not quite.
Maybe once the Market Harborough realignment is finished and if the service gets a straight pop, I reckon it could be possible.

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The Planner · 8 May 2019

Was it a HST or 222 doing the run? ignore what its timed for at the minute.

Bald Rick · 8 May 2019

Yes it should be possible with a clear run. Trouble is the timetable is rather ‘full’ so clear runs are rare.

Hairy Bear · 8 May 2019

Easily achievable with a healthy 222 and a clear run,more of a challenge with the angel sets. Nearly did it with one the other week but held outside Leicester. Would have been 59 mins. Oh I love a challenge! !.

Bevan Price · 8 May 2019

The RPS fastest recorded time from St. Pancras to Leicester is 59m. 50s; southbound, the best time is 61m. 16s. Both are by Class 222s.

Mugby · 8 May 2019

I feel sure that one Down service (possibly Master Cutler?) was booked for 60 mins STP-LEI some years ago with an HST but it was rescinded after a season or two because more often than not it was unachievable.

700007 · 8 May 2019

I know it's not been outlined in the franchise specification as such for the new EMR franchise, but would the new operator aim, or at the very least be interested in trying to get the new stock to be able to comfortably do London to Leicester in 60 minutes?

Ash Bridge · 8 May 2019

Could this APT-E test run from the 1970s claim to be the fastest ever I'm wondering?

Bald Rick · 8 May 2019

Mugby said:
I feel sure that one Down service (possibly Master Cutler?) was booked for 60 mins STP-LEI some years ago with an HST but it was rescinded after a season or two because more often than not it was unachievable.

I was sure of that too, the 1700 down. But then looking at today’s timings, and the allowances, and knowing the acceleration of a 222 vs HST, and also knowing the linespeed increases that have happened in the last few years, I thought I must have been imagning things.

38Cto15E · 8 May 2019

Thanks for all the input, I think the APT-E run must be the quickest ever.
Next week will probably be my last journey through the existing platforms at Mkt Harborough.
I know that many runs of the 2031 ex St Pancras would have done better if not delayed between Knighton Jct and the station.
In my log book I have the times of a run we made in the 1970's of 4S53 The Tartan Arrow between Kentish Town and Wigston South Jct, it was quick for an Intermodal type train, we managed the ton through Sundon, but that was in pre H&S days.

Hairy Bear · 9 May 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Could this APT-E test run from the 1970s claim to be the fastest ever I'm wondering?

Has been done in 56 mins with a 4 coach Hst during the 'rio' days.
Fastest with a 8 coach Hst is 62 mins. I've only done it in 60 mins with a 222 but 58 would be achievable with a healthy set and a run which we never get these days constantly following thameslinks, conflict with x/c at Wigston, loco's running round at Knighton. It just goes on.......

Ash Bridge · 9 May 2019

Hairy Bear said:
Has been done in 56 mins with a 4 coach Hst during the 'rio' days.
Fastest with a 8 coach Hst is 62 mins. I've only done it in 60 mins with a 222 but 58 would be achievable with a healthy set and a run which we never get these days constantly following thameslinks, conflict with x/c at Wigston, loco's running round at Knighton. It just goes on.......

Very interesting thanks for that, and thinking about it I'm imagining the test run with the APT back then had the advantage of a clear run and a relaxation of the normal speed restrictions plus of course the use of its tilt system, that 56 minutes with the 2+4 HST you quote is certainly going some!

Jamesrob637 · 9 May 2019

Wonder if it would have done Derby in 90 had it not stopped at Loughborough, East Mids Parkway and Long Eaton...

43074 · 9 May 2019

Jamesrob637 said:
Wonder if it would have done Derby in 90 had it not stopped at Loughborough, East Mids Parkway and Long Eaton...

I think it's a pity 'Nottingham in 90' doesn't seem to be on the agenda for anytime soon...

dk1 · 9 May 2019

43074 said:
I think it's a pity 'Nottingham in 90' doesn't seem to be on the agenda for anytime soon...

Ipswich in less than 60, Norwich in 90 is about to become a reality on the GEML so let's hope Abellio works it magic with Leicester/Nottingham on the MML.

pt_mad · 9 May 2019

Gus said:
Next week will probably be my last journey through the existing platforms at Mkt Harborough.

When are the new roads due to open/be in regular operation?

Class 170101 · 9 May 2019

dk1 said:
Ipswich in less than 60, Norwich in 90 is about to become a reality on the GEML so let's hope Abellio works it magic with Leicester/Nottingham on the MML.

Norwich in 90 and Ipswich in 60 will be fragile and I wouldn't be entirely be surprised if similar problems are encountered with Leicester in 60 and Nottingham in 90.

43074 · 10 May 2019

Class 170101 said:
Norwich in 90 and Ipswich in 60 will be fragile and I wouldn't be entirely be surprised if similar problems are encountered with Leicester in 60 and Nottingham in 90.

Technically and theoretically Nottingham in 90 is easy: it could be done with stops at Leicester and one other place with a 222, but it would need a timetable restructure to accommodate it on a standard hourly basis. Stopping at Market Harborough and/or Kettering would be out of the question I suspect. Until May 2018 1B18 (the 07:55 Nottingham to London) was timed for 91 minutes, even with a less than ideal path South of Leicester, so it's certainly possible with a decent run.

Class 170101 · 10 May 2019

43074 said:
Technically and theoretically Nottingham in 90 is easy: it could be done with stops at Leicester and one other place with a 222, but it would need a timetable restructure to accommodate it on a standard hourly basis. Stopping at Market Harborough and/or Kettering would be out of the question I suspect. Until May 2018 1B18 (the 07:55 Nottingham to London) was timed for 91 minutes, even with a less than ideal path South of Leicester, so it's certainly possible with a decent run.

I must admit I thought more than just the one train you note above were timed for around 91 minutes prior to the Thameslink led timetable that operates now.

38Cto15E · 16 May 2019

I made my inaugural trip on the 2031 from St Pancras last night with the HST GTi set. First of all the legroom was fantastic, also there was a good view out of the windows. The journey was 61/62 minutes which is the fastest ever I have traveled to Leicester from the capital, we may have done it in the hour but we were a little early at Napsbury and got checked with 9T54 Brighton-Bedford leaving St Albans and it then going on the down slow at Harpenden.
I was returning from Norwich after spending a couple of days on the Greater Anglia short set 37's. A much better way to return than on Cross Country via Peterborough.

ps: Abellio GA have Advance singles for most of the day between Norwich and London for £6.60 with a railcard.

WesternLancer · 16 May 2019

Gus said:
I made my inaugural trip on the 2031 from St Pancras last night with the HST GTi set. First of all the legroom was fantastic, also there was a good view out of the windows. The journey was 61/62 minutes which is the fastest ever I have traveled to Leicester from the capital, we may have done it in the hour but we were a little early at Napsbury and got checked with 9T54 Brighton-Bedford leaving St Albans and it then going on the down slow at Harpenden.
I was returning from Norwich after spending a couple of days on the Greater Anglia short set 37's. A much better way to return than on Cross Country via Peterborough. ps: Abellio GA have Advance singles for most of the day between Norwich and London for £6.60 with a railcard.

Yes that's a great HST set, excellent comfort - + there is the declassified 1st class car in the rake - just got the standard class upholstery but still 2+1 abreast seating.

Mind you, I did find it quite bouncy. Much more so than the GW HSTs I have been sampling over last few weeks. The 'conventional' EMT HST are also quite bouncy, but perhaps not as much as the GTi - so it may be a track issue.

Railperf · 16 May 2019

WesternLancer said:
Yes that's a great HST set, excellent comfort - + there is the declassified 1st class car in the rake - just got the standard class upholstery but still 2+1 abreast seating.

Mind you, I did find it quite bouncy. Much more so than the GW HSTs I have been sampling over last few weeks. The 'conventional' EMT HST are also quite bouncy, but perhaps not as much as the GTi - so it may be a track issue.

Or maybe the 2 plus 6 sets- leased from Angel - have different suspension dampers. The track quality in places IS variable.
The declassified seats are nice and wide..plus guaranteed tables. But the seat back pitch causes me to 'submarine'. They are quite quick too - almost the equal of a 222.

Railperf · 17 May 2019

Hairy Bear said:
Has been done in 56 mins with a 4 coach Hst during the 'rio' days.
Fastest with a 8 coach Hst is 62 mins. I've only done it in 60 mins with a 222 but 58 would be achievable with a healthy set and a run which we never get these days constantly following thameslinks, conflict with x/c at Wigston, loco's running round at Knighton. It just goes on.......

Not wishing to disagree ..but i am wondering how even a 2 plus 4 HST could have achieved a 4 minute time saving against the best 222 time on that route back in the day when the speed limits were much lower. Apt E achieved a fast time because it could use tilt round the curves and run North of Market Harborough at speeds approaching 125mph.
I had a very fast 65 minute - totally clear run on a 8 coach set some years ago before 125mph was allowed on certain sections. So i cannot see how almost 9 minutes was saved on that time without reckless abuse of the limits - honestly i cannot. A class 222 matches a 2 plus 4 set acceleration wise..and as has been pointed out earlier - a tad under 60 minutes was recorded on a 222 using the 125mph sections to the full. How on earth could a 2 plus 4 set run 4 minutes faster than that? Details please...

Hairy Bear · 18 May 2019

Well your not getting full details, it's too long ago ,but yes the limits were exceeded but not to the point of what you like to call reckless.
It was a 2+ 4 formation and far out excelerates any 222 or the current 2+ 6 formations.
Even pre linespeed increase days we were reaching Leic's regually in 63 mins with the 8 coach sets. Now the best achieved is 62.
The 6 coach angel sets will do it in 59 with a decent run, but you never get it. I keep trying but are always twarted.
A 222 will do it also in 59, but I think 58 is aceivable with a healthy set and run....i'm still wating.

Railperf · 19 May 2019

Hairy Bear said:
Well your not getting full details, it's too long ago ,but yes the limits were exceeded but not to the point of what you like to call reckless.
It was a 2+ 4 formation and far out excelerates any 222 or the current 2+ 6 formations.
Even pre linespeed increase days we were reaching Leic's regually in 63 mins with the 8 coach sets. Now the best achieved is 62.
The 6 coach angel sets will do it in 59 with a decent run, but you never get it. I keep trying but are always twarted.
A 222 will do it also in 59, but I think 58 is aceivable with a healthy set and run....i'm still wating.

Are you a driver or passenger? The Angel sets are pretty fast - almost on a par with a 222. A 2+5 set seems to be identical to a 222. The 222's seem to get a better initial start off the line. Even when HST drivers go into full power as early as possible, they still don't have that ability to sprint away. The 2+5 loses out at the start - but makes up for it in the mid range and top end! I haven't been aboard a 2+4 that was given full power from the start - drivers seem to wait for at least 30 to 40 seconds - hence why my 0-60mph recorded times for a 2+4 are no better than then an Angel 2+6 - but the 0-100mph time of 2.5 mins is superior -the 2+6 needs almost 3/4 minute more to reach the 'ton'.

The Planner · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
Are you a driver or passenger? The Angel sets are pretty fast - almost on a par with a 222. A 2+5 set seems to be identical to a 222. The 222's seem to get a better initial start off the line. Even when HST drivers go into full power as early as possible, they still don't have that ability to sprint away. The 2+5 loses out at the start - but makes up for it in the mid range and top end! I haven't been aboard a 2+4 that was given full power from the start - drivers seem to wait for at least 30 to 40 seconds - hence why my 0-60mph recorded times for a 2+4 are no better than then an Angel 2+6 - but the 0-100mph time of 2.5 mins is superior -the 2+6 needs almost 3/4 minute more to reach the 'ton'.

Which is good anecdotal evidence for those who think that a 2+7 or a 2+8 HST will match a Voyager on XC routes, they won't.

Hairy Bear · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
Are you a driver or passenger? The Angel sets are pretty fast - almost on a par with a 222. A 2+5 set seems to be identical to a 222. The 222's seem to get a better initial start off the line. Even when HST drivers go into full power as early as possible, they still don't have that ability to sprint away. The 2+5 loses out at the start - but makes up for it in the mid range and top end! I haven't been aboard a 2+4 that was given full power from the start - drivers seem to wait for at least 30 to 40 seconds - hence why my 0-60mph recorded times for a 2+4 are no better than then an Angel 2+6 - but the 0-100mph time of 2.5 mins is superior -the 2+6 needs almost 3/4 minute more to reach the 'ton'.

I am a driver of many years experience on Hst's if that answers any doubt's !!.
Did hear they knocked the 5 th notch off the 2+ 4 sets which would explain the slower acceleration.

Railperf · 19 May 2019

Hairy Bear said:
Did hear they knocked the 5 th notch off the 2+ 4 sets which would explain the slower acceleration.

That's an urban myth. I have had it from the horses mouth that they can use all 5 notches - but tend to hold back to avoid wheelslip.
My HST driver to Plymouth - on his last run - and giving it the full beans - blames the delayed power application by many drivers on the fact many newer drivers being trained on DMU's with a different driving style, holding into lower notches. Also in the days of Valentas, there was an instruction - no urban myth - for drivers to stay in notch 3 until the rear power car had passed beyond the station canopy - for noise reasons - i.e not to scare away young children.

DanDaDriver · 19 May 2019

Just notch up when the amps stop rising and don’t go into 5 until you’re over 20mph. The angel sets do seem to be able to notch up quicker though. I assume it’s the engines.

If you opened an HST straight into notch 5 from a standing start you still wouldn’t get Meridian-like acceleration. It would just slowly accelerate while vibrating itself to pieces.

londonmidland · 19 May 2019

I don't mean to veer off topic however a few posts in this thread have made me think the following:

From a very basic perspective, not including weather/track conditions, gradients or anything like that, (lets just imagine a completely flat section of track).

So, the question is, if you had a A 2+4 set (MTU) HST and a *insert coaches here* 222 side-by-side, starting from a standstill, what are the performance differences between the following and which train would be the first to: 0-60, 0-100, 0-125 & 100-125.

This question would understandably only be applicable for a driver to get an accurate answer.

St Pancras to Leicester in 60, can it be done?

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