First Greater Glasgow

overthewater · 8 May 2019

If anything it will be 75 buses this year which would make 375 - 400 new buses by the start of 2022, retro fit or move in another 400 and bob's your uncle, problem solved.

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Bus Lightyear · 8 May 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
When you see the buses all lined up like that you see the investment that has been made with more to come!

They’ve started planning for the next phase which is exciting. Hopefully they’ll tackle more main stream services (ie the ones which enter the City Centre) like the 4, 5, 9/9A, 60/60A, 10 etc. Also the unloved routes like the 46, 64, 8 etc would be nice to see some new stock with the correct size requirements similar to those in Lanarkshire.

Does anyone know what the plan is with the E300s? They’re Euro 5 and the same with the Streetlites. There are a number of these on the fleet including main services being made up of them. Are they retrofitting them or are they going to be cascaded out to Lanarkshire and beyond and the likes?

The 60/A is a good suggestion for new buses as it serves some of the busiest areas like Maryhill, Duke Street, the Forge and Shettleston and is probably a high earner because of that. I would be amazed if the 8 and 46 were to get new buses as they are not affected by LEZ and I wouldn't think they're high on the list of First Glasgow's top earners due to their frequency and not serving the city centre.

Bus Lightyear · 8 May 2019

Reading back at some of the posts regarding the new buses and I have to say, although First as a transport group get a lot of stick, that First Glasgow in particular deserve to be commended for the vehicle investment and hopefully that will continue, as some of you have suggested, over the next few years.

Scott mac · 8 May 2019

Bus Lightyear said:
Reading back at some of the posts regarding the new buses and I have to say, although First as a transport group get a lot of stick, that First Glasgow in particular deserve to be commended for the vehicle investment and hopefully that will continue, as some of you have suggested, over the next few years.

Only doing it due to the lez in glasgow

GaryMcEwan · 8 May 2019

Bus Lightyear said:
The 60/A is a good suggestion for new buses as it serves some of the busiest areas like Maryhill, Duke Street, the Forge and Shettleston and is probably a high earner because of that. I would be amazed if the 8 and 46 were to get new buses as they are not affected by LEZ and I wouldn't think they're high on the list of First Glasgow's top earners due to their frequency and not serving the city centre.

Got to remember though, the 90 got the Streetlites in 2014, but they were quickly whipped off the route and that route doesn't go into the city centre either.

Gingerbus1991 · 8 May 2019

Scott mac said:
Only doing it due to the lez in glasgow

...........

GaryMcEwan said:
Got to remember though, the 90 got the Streetlites in 2014, but they were quickly whipped off the route and that route doesn't go into the city centre either.

...........

Aidan1 · 8 May 2019

In regards to the 800&300 journeys it would make sense to remove them. For example buses doing 800’s to Hamilton from Blantyre depot only get 7 mins to do so. Which means the bus usually arrives at the bus station late for its departure since the driver can’t leave early due to the journey being in service. Also it’s a pain having to stop for people you know fine well won’t want on your bus since it’s going the quick way back to the garage.

lastbus · 8 May 2019

Scott mac said:
Only doing it due to the lez in glasgow

Wouldn’t necessarily agree with that the buses the new ones are replacing would have needed replaced regardless of any LEZ coming in or not.

CM · 8 May 2019

lastbus said:
Wouldn’t necessarily agree with that the buses the new ones are replacing would have needed replaced regardless of any LEZ coming in or not.

Of course they would, but they wouldn't have been replaced en masse as they currently are. Remember, First Glasgow didn't get it's first proper batch of Low Floor double deckers until late 2004 and before that they only had the 10 East Lancs Nordics.

lastbus · 8 May 2019

Aidan1 said:
In regards to the 800&300 journeys it would make sense to remove them. For example buses doing 800’s to Hamilton from Blantyre depot only get 7 mins to do so. Which means the bus usually arrives at the bus station late for its departure since the driver can’t leave early due to the journey being in service. Also it’s a pain having to stop for people you know fine well won’t want on your bus since it’s going the quick way back to the garage.

First seem to be now seeing sense in regards to the depot runs.

CM · 8 May 2019

overthewater said:
If anything it will be 75 buses this year which would make 375 - 400 new buses by the start of 2022, retro fit or move in another 400 and bob's your uncle, problem solved.

Talk sense, buying buses isn't like going to your local shop to buy your sweeties. A company like First isn't just going to move 400 buses to one operation, good grief!

awsnews · 8 May 2019

SarahDFIG said:
next phase is supposed to be announced soon and should start arriving later in the year. not got a clue what it will include but guessing mixture again.

E300s most should stay and be retrofitted and streetlights the same boat possibly.

9/9a I think we will see this upgraded in the next batch.

would be great to see more city deckers being ordered and put on the express routes but obviously not as high spec as airport vehicles.

Time will tell though.

I do wonder what is planned for Dumbarton's allocation. In addition to needing replacements for the B10BLEs it seem odd that to date not one of the E300s has been repainted, despite being the oldest examples in the fleet. None of the recent arrivals have gained 'the one' branding either, which given the current strategy of branding other routes is a little surprising as I think 'the one' has seen positive results. If nothing else hopefully there is a refresh planned.
As an aside I see Dumbarton have gained 69086, at least for today.

Gingerbus1991 · 8 May 2019

A former work colleague came away with saying Complacency ruins perfection, its not the fact that these new buses aren't a welcome addition, they are, the definitive line in the future with which the company has its reputation is on the basis of fares constantly increasing far quicker that most other operators, unclean/untidy vehicles leaving the depot, filthy windows etc etc...these very small but very relevant issues are something First won’t ever be able to just Buy themselves out of, neither will it be able to buy its way out of the publics attitude towards what Firsts offers glasgow, it certainly was a politically motivated move to purchase such a large amount of vehicles, I thank you the government for that! bringing me on to there new sparkly fleet, it will eventually be tarnished to a point where they’ll look twice as old as they should in 10 years, there 2013 plate vehicles look rather tired as is with no sight of a consistent plan to keep them in good nick, like wise I’d criticise there 2015 order for this as well, as far as I see refurbing there B9’s seems to have completely stopped.

Gingerbus1991 · 8 May 2019

lastbus said:
Wouldn’t necessarily agree with that the buses the new ones are replacing would have needed replaced regardless of any LEZ coming in or not.

To an extent this is true, but the last extensive order was in 2012/2013 with a few more bought for express services in 2015.

Alot of the vehicles that have been “apparently replaced” in glasgow will most likely appear in other poor parts of the country.

JumpinTrainz · 9 May 2019

This has been spoken about at length previously but it seems relevant to bring it up again - there’s no denying how little invest Glasgow has had in recent years. Not just Glasgow there are many subsidiaries but this is Glasgow we are talking about. First are the main operator in this prosperous, growing City. I really don’t think Glasgow would have received even half of this new stock had LEZ not been pushing for change. In saying that LEZ is here and First are doing their bit completely and it’s nice to see. Investment for such a thriving city is good. No point in dwelling in the past. I just hope this is something First can keep up with in the future to avoid situations from the past.

JumpinTrainz · 9 May 2019

awsnews said:
I do wonder what is planned for Dumbarton's allocation. In addition to needing replacements for the B10BLEs it seem odd that to date not one of the E300s has been repainted, despite being the oldest examples in the fleet. None of the recent arrivals have gained 'the one' branding either, which given the current strategy of branding other routes is a little surprising as I think 'the one' has seen positive results. If nothing else hopefully there is a refresh planned.
As an aside I see Dumbarton have gained 69086, at least for today.

I agree with you here. I do wonder if things are brewing with “the One” as like you say they have not rebranded a single bus at Dumbarton depot. Not new route branding for the one like you may have thought. The buses are now 7 years old and are hammered down the expressway. I would think new buses would be good for this route and some of the peak workings could be doing with designated deckers not just unrefurbished B9TLs. They could be doing with cascading the E300s to other areas of the fleet and allowing the older singles to retire. Also the B9TLs could be refurbished and used elsewhere. It would be nice to see some B8RLEs on the 1. A good solid bus to cope with all the passengers it receives. Hopefully it’s part of the next phase.

CM · 9 May 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
I agree with you here. I do wonder if things are brewing with “the One” as like you say they have not rebranded a single bus at Dumbarton depot. Not new route branding for the one like you may have thought. The buses are now 7 years old and are hammered down the expressway. I would think new buses would be good for this route and some of the peak workings could be doing with designated deckers not just unrefurbished B9TLs. They could be doing with cascading the E300s to other areas of the fleet and allowing the older singles to retire. Also the B9TLs could be refurbished and used elsewhere. It would be nice to see some B8RLEs on the 1. A good solid bus to cope with all the passengers it receives. Hopefully it’s part of the next phase.

First will probably never buy Volvo B8RLEs when there are far cheaper and more economical vehicles out there. Also, I'd imagine a re-brand will happen eventually, these things take time and people need to stop acting like it can be done overnight.

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

I wholly agree with the new buses that were bought for Lanarkshire, most city centre routes did need new buses also, of course I reckon that with the ever growing population actually using buses less and less, especially in rural areas where a higher percentage of people have moved away to car use, the “rural” routes should've had attention earlier rather than later, not to say that the likes of the 1, 1A and 9 are rural routes they seem far more susceptible to decline through competition i.e, against mcgills 38 or the fact “the one” is contending with the train..yet these haven't yet seen vehicles yet is simply mismanaged.

The likes of the 1’s(from balloch), 9, x85, x87, x1, x11 would've all benefited from new vehicles with much nicer seating, just a pitty every other service bus in glasgow is bog standard, no extra comfort etc etc

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

Colin M said:
First will probably never buy Volvo B8RLEs when there are far cheaper and more economical vehicles out there. Also, I'd imagine a re-brand will happen eventually, these things take time and people need to stop acting like it can be done overnight.

Of course if First Glasgow were more forth coming about the purchasing of other vehicles types through funding in the past for the likes of hybrids deckers and electric vehicles fuel savings would've been realised never-mind the political and PR gains that these alternative fuels bring with them.

The fact of the matter is, large groups such as Stagey and First are penny pinchers to the highest order, a top heavy management structure and bonus gains where money saved has seen to that.

Important to note, TFL had “lots” of boris-masters commissioned to be delivered in only a couple of years, the bus builders are able to build far quicker than you have seen buses appearing in glasgow, I suppose a measured approach to buying buses needs to be done but of course if you have services which are already established then surely the company could indeed be having buses brought to glasgow much quicker, asking wrights to build as well would've sped things up

overthewater · 9 May 2019

Colin M said:
Talk sense, buying buses isn't like going to your local shop to buy your sweeties. A company like First isn't just going to move 400 buses to one operation, good grief!

Here we go again another mis reading. I SAID. retro fit or move in another 400. But hey it's why bother...

Mind you thats over 3 year of course

JumpinTrainz · 9 May 2019

First Glasgow seem to have moved away from Wright altogether now (besides the order of Streetlites) and it’s been mentioned a few times that build quality isn’t what it was. I like the B8RLEs. They look like really good buses and I think they’d be good on routes like the 1. However light and economic seems to win right now hence why ADL are the natural choice.

Between now and 2022, ADL will revise and introduce new products so there will still be somewhat variety and who knows they may go to another manufacturer over time. The bottom line is there’s a good lot of stock coming our way between now and the LEZ deadline.

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

JumpinTrainz said:
First Glasgow seem to have moved away from Wright altogether now (besides the order of Streetlites) and it’s been mentioned a few times that build quality isn’t what it was. I like the B8RLEs. They look like really good buses and I think they’d be good on routes like the 1. However light and economic seems to win right now hence why ADL are the natural choice.

Between now and 2022, ADL will revise and introduce new products so there will still be somewhat variety and who knows they may go to another manufacturer over time. The bottom line is there’s a good lot of stock coming our way between now and the LEZ deadline.

I wouldn't even mind them buying Class 2 certified Panther LEs for the balloch journeys 1/1A.

Class 2 would let them have standing capacity, a rearward facing wheel chair bay and potentially a fold-out chair ramp! Now that is ambition that First do not have.

Jordan Adam · 9 May 2019

Gingerbus1991 said:
I wouldn't even mind them buying Class 2 certified Panther LEs for the balloch journeys 1/1A.

Class 2 would let them have standing capacity, a rearward facing wheel chair bay and potentially a fold-out chair ramp! Now that is ambition that First do not have.

Keep in mind the running costs of the Panther LE, it's just not a viable (or sane) option.

Gingerbus1991 said:
I wholly agree with the new buses that were bought for Lanarkshire, most city centre routes did need new buses also, of course I reckon that with the ever growing population actually using buses less and less, especially in rural areas where a higher percentage of people have moved away to car use, the “rural” routes should've had attention earlier rather than later, not to say that the likes of the 1, 1A and 9 are rural routes they seem far more susceptible to decline through competition i.e, against mcgills 38 or the fact “the one” is contending with the train..yet these haven't yet seen vehicles yet is simply mismanaged.

The likes of the 1’s(from balloch), 9, x85, x87, x1, x11 would've all benefited from new vehicles with much nicer seating, just a pitty every other service bus in glasgow is bog standard, no extra comfort etc etc

I think it's been mentioned here already but the 9/9A is meant to be in included in the next order. I can't see the point on new vehicles for those X routes when they already have 65 plates. A mix of 6 cylinder E200MMCs for the 1/1A/1B and E400MMCs for the 1C/1D would be a good move.

JumpinTrainz said:
First Glasgow seem to have moved away from Wright altogether now (besides the order of Streetlites) and it’s been mentioned a few times that build quality isn’t what it was. I like the B8RLEs. They look like really good buses and I think they’d be good on routes like the 1. However light and economic seems to win right now hence why ADL are the natural choice.

Between now and 2022, ADL will revise and introduce new products so there will still be somewhat variety and who knows they may go to another manufacturer over time. The bottom line is there’s a good lot of stock coming our way between now and the LEZ deadline.

The bus industry has moved on from heavy weight single deckers, primarily because the light weights now can do the same job just as good / better. The Volvo/Wright offering these days is a far shadow of what it once was. ADL may revise and modify their range a little in the next few years, however i can't see any significant redesign until well after 2022.

TheGrandWazoo · 9 May 2019

Jordan Adam said:
The bus industry has moved on from heavy weight single deckers, primarily because the light weights now can do the same job just as good / better. The Volvo/Wright offering these days is a far shadow of what it once was. ADL may revise and modify their range a little in the next few years, however i can't see any significant redesign until well after 2022.

Absolutely. There are some people who don’t really appreciate how the bus market has gone. 126 B8RLE delivered in 4 years tells you all you need to know!! Heavyweights are just not being ordered as fuel economy is so important, and whilst whole life costs used to be important, the difference has narrowed appreciably.

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Keep in mind the running costs of the Panther LE, it's just not a viable (or sane) option.

I think it's been mentioned here already but the 9/9A is meant to be in included in the next order. I can't see the point on new vehicles for those X routes when they already have 65 plates. A mix of 6 cylinder E200MMCs for the 1/1A/1B and E400MMCs for the 1C/1D would be a good move.

The bus industry has moved on from heavy weight single deckers, primarily because the light weights now can do the same job just as good / better. The Volvo/Wright offering these days is a far shadow of what it once was. ADL may revise and modify their range a little in the next few years, however i can't see any significant redesign until well after 2022.

Neither is running what is essentially a long wheelbase midi on what can be seen as a long distance journey from Balloch and Dumbarton.

pseudo-coach Panther LE's make a far bigger far more confortable statement than a flimsy midi will, even after discussing the 7 year old vehicles on "the one" atm that they are already feeling the strain yet its acceptable to buy yet more lightweight rigs, absorbing the extra fuel put into a larger vehicle with that added comfort is the ambition the company needs to find, not for itself, for its customer. A nicer vehicle will certainly change the perception of traveling by bus in glasgow.

Driving the 4 and 6-cylinder engined mmc variants back-to-back don't give much of any discernable difference in performance, generally I've found the 6-C units to have a more aggressive fuel saving set up programmed to there gearboxes anyways, that hasn't changed with FiG, the 200 mmcs recently taken off the 500 are a classic case in point let alone the 4 speed gearboxes letting the engine roar on motorways, an Allison T3280 6 speeder can be fitted on the 6-cylinder units as well, albeit the Allison isn't compatible with the stop-start system..

Jordan Adam · 9 May 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Absolutely. There are some people who don’t really appreciate how the bus market has gone. 126 B8RLE delivered in 4 years tells you all you need to know!! Heavyweights are just not being ordered as fuel economy is so important, and whilst whole life costs used to be important, the difference has narrowed appreciably.

Indeed. That reminds me, the sales on the B5TL in the past year are quite worrying, there's been a clear decline in popularity!

Gingerbus1991 said:
Neither is running what is essentially a long wheelbase midi on what can be seen as a long distance journey from Balloch and Dumbarton.

pseudo-coach Panther LE's make a far bigger far more confortable statement than a flimsy midi will, even after discussing the 7 year old vehicles on "the one" atm that they are already feeling the strain yet its acceptable to buy yet more lightweight rigs, absorbing the extra fuel put into a larger vehicle with that added comfort is the ambition the company needs to find, not for itself, for its customer. A nicer vehicle will certainly change the perception of traveling by bus in glasgow.

The so called "flimsy long wheelbase midis" are quite popular these days on Stagecoach's slightly longer rural routes, while i did find this worrying at first as time has passed it has appeared they're more than suitable. I still think high spec LWB 6 Cylinder Enviro200MMC's would be perfectly suitable to the 1/1A/1B, the Alisons box being preferable. Certainly the likes of the Panther LE's shouldn't even be an option, anyone who buys such a sizeable vehicle with high running costs and poor capacity (given it's size) is simply bonkers. Just think how much longer the route would take with that slow coach door and the complicated wheelchair clamp system! You also have to consider what those vehicles are going to be doing towards the end of their life, 14 and a half metre coaches with only 50(ish) seats really limits your options.

TheGrandWazoo · 9 May 2019

The entire industry is evidently culpable but the reality is that the costs of heavyweight chassis don’t add up any more.

In terms of what passengers want, the actual “comfort” element is much less important than things like reliability, price or safety. Would certainly be interesting to know the average and mode journey durations to understand how important comfort actually is on the One.

I’d not be shocked to see new fleet there on the next tranche of vehicles with the e300s cascaded south of the border.

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

I'm not against Midis, earlier on here many spoke of the 8, 90 and perhaps the 3 being ideal urban routes for a light weight bus like the 200mmc vehicles.

One other bus still within the raft of ADL vehicles is the 200XLB tri-axles Auckland have, yes they are 12.8m long but are still fairy light with 16t gvw.

These allow more forward facing seats to be fitted as opposed to the 11.5/8m variant which have to utilise sideway facing flipdowns to achieve this, again there tri-axles set ups will offer a higher level of comfort and stability as well over bumps.

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
The entire industry is evidently culpable but the reality is that the costs of heavyweight chassis don’t add up any more.

In terms of what passengers want, the actual “comfort” element is much less important than things like reliability, price or safety. Would certainly be interesting to know the average and mode journey durations to understand how important comfort actually is on the One.

I’d not be shocked to see new fleet there on the next tranche of vehicles with the e300s cascaded south of the border.

Yet reliability, price and safety haven't been in the publics interest of late, the group aren't known for those things either..

Gingerbus1991 · 9 May 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Indeed. That reminds me, the sales on the B5TL in the past year are quite worrying, there's been a clear decline in popularity!

The so called "flimsy long wheelbase midis" are quite popular these days on Stagecoach's slightly longer rural routes, while i did find this worrying at first as time has passed it has appeared they're more than suitable. I still think high spec LWB 6 Cylinder Enviro200MMC's would be perfectly suitable to the 1/1A/1B, the Alisons box being preferable. Certainly the likes of the Panther LE's shouldn't even be an option, anyone who buys such a sizeable vehicle with high running costs and poor capacity (given it's size) is simply bonkers. Just think how much longer the route would take with that slow coach door and the complicated wheelchair clamp system! You also have to consider what those vehicles are going to be doing towards the end of their life, 14 and a half metre coaches with only 50(ish) seats really limits your options.

Class 2 certification means that it would be a backrest-style wheelchair area, not the strap & rachet system on current coaches, a "fold-out" from the front door ramp, I'm am led to believe a plug-door can be fitted so the door slides open as seen on the middle-door of deckers, again these being much faster than the pneumatic drop-to-unlock coach doors

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