Do ticket gates need to be staffed when in operation?

Lewis lamb62) · 8 May 2019

hi, quick question

Is it illegal to have ticket barriers/ gates in operation without a member of staff manning them?

This would make sense since most barriers (in my experience) don’t read rail rovers or just don’t work half the time

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 8 May 2019

Lewis lamb62) said:
hi, quick question

Is it illegal to have ticket barriers/ gates in operation without a member of staff manning them?

I don't know about the law in and of itself (I suspect that would just require the provision of an emergency release) but policy is that they need to be monitored, but that can be remote. Such remotely monitored barriers tend to have a CCTV camera to show your ticket to so the person can see it.

AK1982 · 8 May 2019

Another point on ticket barriers but slightly off topic so apologies.

Does anyone know how they are set up to read ticket validity?
Reason I ask is the barriers at Manchester oxford road have in the last few months stopped accepting anytime day return tickets from numerous stations on the CLC line that have the restriction ‘only valid via warrington’ on them. When you enter ticket always says not valid, this causes lengthy delayed in the morning peak with people trying to exit via barriers.

Anyone know why this would happen and how easy to resolve?

Bertie the bus · 8 May 2019

I’ve never seen the barriers in the subway at Crewe manned so without bothering to search for relevant laws that would suggest it definitely isn’t illegal.

sd0733 · 8 May 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I’ve never seen the barriers in the subway at Crewe manned so without bothering to search for relevant laws that would suggest it definitely isn’t illegal.

Those have a video link to the main barriers so presumably that meets the relevant rules

yorkie · 8 May 2019

sd0733 said:
Those have a video link to the main barriers so presumably that meets the relevant rules

Depends on the operator. LU requires a person in close proximity, not by video link.

splashoutradio · 8 May 2019

Leicester, as mentioned previously for other stations, has unstaffed barriers from the main car park. There is however a help point, and from personal experience, they're very fast at answering and allowing people through when there are issues with ticket acceptance.

Antman · 8 May 2019

splashoutradio said:
Leicester, as mentioned previously for other stations, has unstaffed barriers from the main car park. There is however a help point, and from personal experience, they're very fast at answering and allowing people through when there are issues with ticket acceptance.

I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that if he leaves the barrier for any reason, call of nature etc, and there is no other staff member to cover then the barriers must be left open.

Heaven forbid the ramifications of somebody getting injured by the barriers and there are no staff around.

MetroCar4058 · 8 May 2019

Tyne & Wear Metro currently requires a minimum of 2 members of staff on a gateline, (otherwise they should be set to open) but this is unique to the operator. The gates are quite poor anyway and a good % of tickets aren't gateline enabled so there is a high level of staff intervention required.

Its important to note that one member of staff should be issuing penalty fare notices to those turning up out of the compulsory ticket area without a ticket. There is often quite a queue for a PFN!

Lewis lamb62) · 8 May 2019

Jack15001 said:
I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that if he leaves the barrier for any reason, call of nature etc, and there is no other staff member to cover then the barriers must be left open.

Heaven forbid the ramifications of somebody getting injured by the barriers and there are no staff around.

exactly what I was thinking, if some's ticket doesn't let them through and they end up breaking their neck whilst climbing over I image the TOC in question would have a rather large personal injury claim on their hands

Class 170101 · 8 May 2019

Don't they have to be supervised in case of emergency.

yorkie · 8 May 2019

Class 170101 said:
Don't they have to be supervised in case of emergency.

All good operators will require that they are supervised when in operation.

Some operators have a video link but I have my doubts that these have sufficient safeguards in place; it's not good enough for London Underground, so it shouldn't be acceptable for anyone else, but some have lower standards unfortunately.

Presumably if an emergency occurred, all gates would be set to open.

splashoutradio · 8 May 2019

Class 170101 said:
Don't they have to be supervised in case of emergency.

I don't know if this is the case, but I think the likes of Leicester may be remotely monitored. I've certainly heard the help point strike up with a stern voice on the other end when undesirables have been loitering in the area.

yorkie · 8 May 2019

splashoutradio said:
I don't know if this is the case, but I think the likes of Leicester may be remotely monitored. I've certainly heard the help point strike up with a stern voice on the other end when undesirables have been loitering in the area.

There is (or certainly was) a remotely monitored gateline which goes to the car park entrance at Leicester. I used it years ago, the gates didn't accept valid tickets, and there was no apparent method of contacting anyone, so the person ahead of me just pushed the gate open, and I was then able to exit by following them. This was probably at least 5 or 6 years ago so may have changed since then.

Class 170101 · 8 May 2019

yorkie said:
All good operators will require that they are supervised when in operation.

Some operators have a video link but I have my doubts that these have sufficient safeguards in place; it's not good enough for London Underground, so it shouldn't be acceptable for anyone else, but some have lower standards unfortunately.

Presumably if an emergency occurred, all gates would be set to open.

I would imagine Underground standards to be stricter than some BR stations as they run underground stations and those standards will be dictated by the Kings Cross Fire Reports.

However some BR stations are covered by the same Kings Cross fire standards such as Liverpool Street and Edinburgh Waverley as they are defined as sub-surface stations.

sharpley · 8 May 2019

All gatelines made by Cubic have an emergency open plunger switch system (plungers located on the gateline itself plus ticket offices, control rooms), plus the gateline is linked to the station fire panel so when its activated all gates open automatically. I'd image other gate manufacturers have a similar setup too.

Kite159 · 8 May 2019

sharpley said:
All gatelines made by Cubic have an emergency open plunger switch system (plungers located on the gateline itself plus ticket offices, control rooms), plus the gateline is linked to the station fire panel so when its activated all gates open automatically. I'd image other gate manufacturers have a similar setup too.

Certainly on a Sunday evening when the weekly fire alarm test is carried out at Waterloo, the gates automatically open when the alarm goes of

Mugby · 8 May 2019

I'm sure the barriers which exit from Platform 2 at Stoke-on-Trent aren't always manned when they're in operation.

gordonthemoron · 8 May 2019

the ones in Holland don't seem to be manned

tsr · 8 May 2019

MetroCar4058 said:
Tyne & Wear Metro currently requires a minimum of 2 members of staff on a gateline, (otherwise they should be set to open) but this is unique to the operator. The gates are quite poor anyway and a good % of tickets aren't gateline enabled so there is a high level of staff intervention required.

Its important to note that one member of staff should be issuing penalty fare notices to those turning up out of the compulsory ticket area without a ticket. There is often quite a queue for a PFN!

From my observations on Great Northern, staff rostering often seems to provide 2 members of gateline staff, and often they’re able to sell tickets as well, but the gatelines can be single-staffed if needed.

The rest of GTR tends to be significantly less well-staffed, especially the Southern side. This is countered by there being rather more staff on the trains.

theageofthetra · 9 May 2019

Jack15001 said:
I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that if he leaves the barrier for any reason, call of nature etc, and there is no other staff member to cover then the barriers must be left open.

Heaven forbid the ramifications of somebody getting injured by the barriers and there are no staff around.

They manage perfectly well at some Japanese stations. Any issues there is a call point & cctv coverage. I have also found several stations on Dutch railways where there were no staff around and the only way in was with their newish chip card (or a printed bar code in the case of my FIP)

ag51ruk · 9 May 2019

Mugby said:
I'm sure the barriers which exit from Platform 2 at Stoke-on-Trent aren't always manned when they're in operation.

They have the same video call system used by the gates in the subway at Crewe.

Shrewbly · 9 May 2019

I came across the remote gate monitoring for the first time at Luton Parkway platform 1 last week. It was very efficient, with an immediate response, a video screen for the passenger and a separate camera so they could see your ticket details. In fact I had to talk to the gateline staff there 6 times over two days, both directly and remotely, and I have to say that they were exceptionally helpful each time, even allowing me to pass through the station to get to the car park without a ticket.

Mind you, if the barriers had actually been set to accept my daughter's child tickets I wouldn't have needed to keep them so busy!

Aictos · 9 May 2019

sharpley said:
All gatelines made by Cubic have an emergency open plunger switch system (plungers located on the gateline itself plus ticket offices, control rooms), plus the gateline is linked to the station fire panel so when its activated all gates open automatically. I'd image other gate manufacturers have a similar setup too.

Or even if there is a power cut, the gates will open automatically if in use as it sounds a alarm, same as the OP above me will sound the alarm.

Aictos · 9 May 2019

As to barriers not accepting child tickets, the reason is simple - some people instead of paying the full adult fare will try to get away with just getting a child ticket which is fraud.

Once you’re 16 or over you are classed as a adult but you get some people who try it on and who when caught with a invalid ticket get rather upset.

The Gateline btw can be set to accept or reject any type of ticket depending on the operator requirements at the time, so child tickets, railcard tickets etc

Deepgreen · 9 May 2019

The same exists at Reigate. There are, of course, various tickets/passes that gates cannot accept, but a shockingly high number which are wrongly rejected. My season ticket from Betchworth to London Termini used to be rejected at Redhill, East Croydon, Clapham Junction and several other stations en route, where, of course, it was valid!

Tio Terry · 9 May 2019

It's all a matter of Risk Assessment. The Station Operator has to have in place a plan for operating the station, as part of this plan there has to be an assessment of how to manage ticket gates. This may include direct involvement of staff and remote monitoring systems such as CCTV. Generally, if there is an evacuation warning then the barriers will automatically open. There is also, usually, a point at which crowd control dictates that barrier lines are automatically opened if the crowd gets excessive - this was certainly true for Waterloo platform 19 barrier line when I was still full time staff. Someone mentioned climbing over barriers, getting injured and claiming compensation, that wouldn't happen. If you climb over barriers it's the same as climbing over a fence, you shouldn't do it and if you do it's at your own risk - barriers will automatically open if you give them a firm kick anyway.

So, it's all down to individual station Risk Assessments and there's no hard and fast rule.

Islineclear3_1 · 9 May 2019

What about the need for gateline staff to provide assistance for those with heavy luggage/pushchairs/disabled pax who may need to use the wide gates

Often, if staff see me with both hands full; e.g. a bag in one hand and a coffee in the other, they will open the gate for me (except at one or two London termini where the staff are miserable as sin...

camflyer · 9 May 2019

Class 170101 said:
Don't they have to be supervised in case of emergency.

It's not just in case of emergency but there are some perfectly valid reasons for someone wanting to get through the gate-line without a valid ticket. For example, when coming back from London I often have a 30-40 wait at Cambridge. rather than just sitting on the platform it is nice to pop to the M&S in the ticket hall or for something to drink outside. The ticket doesn't allow the journey to be "broken" so you have to ask the gate operator to let you through.

Kite159 · 12 May 2019

I had an odd experience yesterday evening (around 5pm) when at Edinburgh Park, using a Central Scotland rover, I wanted to pop out of the station to visit the Tesco for some supplies.

The barriers on the platform (travelling away from Edinburgh) were closed and my rover didn't work the barriers. Tried the remote help point but no reply from the other end, that is when I noticed the other set of barriers for the Edinburgh bound platform were wide open with no evidence of staff around. So I had to force the wide gate open to exit (and re-enter 15 minutes later), I wasn't the only person whose ticket didn't work.

I suspect when the staff finished work they released the barriers on platform 1, but not on platform 2. Interestingly when I returned to Edinburgh later that evening the barriers were open.

Do ticket gates need to be staffed when in operation?

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