More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

underbank · 8 May 2019

bramling said:
I really don’t understand why some people seem to feel that a ban should be the first resort. Yes it’s a viable option, and one which might be necessary should nothing else meaningfully deal with the problem, however I don’t feel we are at that point (yet).

And if we’re going to ban a few things which cause problems, can we do something to prevent various types of sports fans from travelling en masse, please, and while we’re at it ground all evening services which many users treat as a toilet!

And how about banning pubs and clubs from opening on a Friday night because of the damage/mess/harm/fights/injuries caused by drunken revellers? Any action has to be proportional. You can't eliminate ALL risks, there has to be a balance.

I'd be more interested in looking at how trespassers got onto the line, given how we've been spending millions over the past couple of decades on fencing - has it been damaged in these specific places or has it been installed badly or are there still places without fencing? Surely Network Rails' first priority has to be to make these specific access points safe by repairing/installing the fencing. (Obviously irrelevant for crossings etc, but perhaps they should install CCTV on all crossings?). As for stations, how about the TOCs consider crowd control when recruiting, i.e. don't employ short/thin people with quiet voices - make it part of the job and recruit accordingly so station staff have more of a "presence" to help them be more assertive to stop people crowding before it gets out of hand.

At the end of the day, some elements of Joe Public will always be pillocks, whether they're facebook selfie merchants or professional lifetime trainspotters. The railway as a whole has to deal with that. You can't just "ban everything"!

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mpthomson · 8 May 2019

Wolfie said:
You could quite easily get shot.

No you couldn't..... you certainly wouldn't be allowed to wander round and it's stupid to attempt it, but no-one unarmed or not posing a lethal threat with a weapon is likely to be shot.

Thin aluminium tubes designed as pressure vessels and live ammunition don't go well together.

driver_m · 8 May 2019

Just out of curiosity. When is the FS next due on the WCML. I’m not interested in seeing it, just gonna book the day off and avoid the hassle of being stopped every 5m by Rugby SCC!

bramling · 8 May 2019

underbank said:
And how about banning pubs and clubs from opening on a Friday night because of the damage/mess/harm/fights/injuries caused by drunken revellers? Any action has to be proportional. You can't eliminate ALL risks, there has to be a balance.

I'd be more interested in looking at how trespassers got onto the line, given how we've been spending millions over the past couple of decades on fencing - has it been damaged in these specific places or has it been installed badly or are there still places without fencing? Surely Network Rails' first priority has to be to make these specific access points safe by repairing/installing the fencing. (Obviously irrelevant for crossings etc, but perhaps they should install CCTV on all crossings?). As for stations, how about the TOCs consider crowd control when recruiting, i.e. don't employ short/thin people with quiet voices - make it part of the job and recruit accordingly so station staff have more of a "presence" to help them be more assertive to stop people crowding before it gets out of hand.

At the end of the day, some elements of Joe Public will always be pillocks, whether they're facebook selfie merchants or professional lifetime trainspotters. The railway as a whole has to deal with that. You can't just "ban everything"!

As far as fencing goes, most rural locations still have simple post & wire fencing. NR has been installing palisade fencing in recent years, but only in designated locations - either trespass hotspots, or on particularly busy lines like the ECML and WCML. A drop in the ocean really. Then there’s the issue of level crossings, especially footpath crossings and the like, from where access onto the railway is virtually impossible to prevent.

theironroad · 8 May 2019

bramling said:
As far as fencing goes, most rural locations still have simple post & wire fencing. NR has been installing palisade fencing in recent years, but only in designated locations - either trespass hotspots, or on particularly busy lines like the ECML and WCML. A drop in the ocean really. Then there’s the issue of level crossings, especially footpath crossings and the like, from where access onto the railway is virtually impossible to prevent.

While clearly some idiots are climbing over fences at random places onto the lineside, a number of photos I've seen are people straying outwards from a designated foot crossing. I guess if a number of people turn up with their cameras and there is not enough space on the crossing entrance, they start spreading along the cess a bit. Some will obviously know they are in the wrong, but I wonder if some don't really relaise that what they are doing is wrong.

richieb1971 · 8 May 2019

The first time I saw Flying Scotsmans on its first run into service a few years ago I realized that I needed to be line side where there was absolutely nobody around.

When it did its MML run a month or two later I asked a farmer if I could enter on his private property and he agreed. So I was all on my lonesome with nobody in my way. The problem for these folks in the twitter feed video is that there is just too many people on the platform. I would hazard a guess that they are all getting in each others way and the end result of the footage or camera shot will be well below professional standards. Better to go to a place where you have elevation and a zoom lens.

bramling · 8 May 2019

richieb1971 said:
The first time I saw Flying Scotsmans on its first run into service a few years ago I realized that I needed to be line side where there was absolutely nobody around.

When it did its MML run a month or two later I asked a farmer if I could enter on his private property and he agreed. So I was all on my lonesome with nobody in my way. The problem for these folks in the twitter feed video is that there is just too many people on the platform. I would hazard a guess that they are all getting in each others way and the end result of the footage or camera shot will be well below professional standards. Better to go to a place where you have elevation and a zoom lens.

Many people simply have no idea how to take a decent photo. It always makes me laugh seeing people make elementary mistakes like aim the camera directly into the sun or using flash for something other than a close-up shot. Nonetheless, with the FS it seems that many of the pictures are simply to say "I was there" rather than to make up a professional-standard picture. As you say, best to pick a remote location - and preferably a subject which is well and truly *off* the proverbial bandwagon, which kind of rules out FS!

pdeaves · 8 May 2019

bramling said:
It always makes me laugh seeing people make elementary mistakes like aim the camera directly into the sun or using flash for something other than a close-up shot

or standing on the edge of the platform through which the train will run. Unless you want to specialise in 'head on' shots, of course!

d9009alycidon · 8 May 2019

Last time I saw FS was at Doncaster when it turned up unexpectedly on a LE movement, there was only me (waiting for a train) and one other enthusiast taking general photographs of trains and getting the usual funny looks. In comes FS and those same normals suddenly jump up trying to get as many selfies as possible with FS in the background, it does have that effect!

ArchieWoodbine · 8 May 2019

richieb1971 said:
The first time I saw Flying Scotsmans on its first run into service a few years ago I realized that I needed to be line side where there was absolutely nobody around..

Do you mean you climbed over a fence or strayed off a crossing to get a good view trackside? Apologies if I'm misinterpretting it, but it sounds like that's what you're advocating.

driver_m · 8 May 2019

I know someone suggested this a long time ago, but maybe it’s time to monetise this desire and demand for videos photos etc and also have a place for dedicated hardcore spotters or those keen to expand their interest. Something similar to the aviation viewing parks like that at Manchester. Some sort of elevated place that’s safe with trackside access at the more regularly photographed locations like Winwick Jn, Basford Hall etc etc. Or somewhere where good photographers would highly rate for photography, the likes of Paul Bigland or Mark5812 off that smugmug or whatever it was called. Run the Steam services past these locations exclusively to build up and make sure there are facilities. I honestly don’t know if it’s a good idea or a crazy one but it can’t stay as it is now, as one of us upfront is eventually going to suffer a fatality because of this desire for the perfect shot. I know I upset a few people on here with the comments about getting rid of steam off the main line , but I wasn’t a lone voice was I? You have to face that fact. There is so much anecdotal evidence even on here about arguments and fights over getting in others ways whilst trying to video that you have to admit there’s a big problem that needs sorting. So what should be done?

Andrew S · 8 May 2019

underbank said:
As for stations, how about the TOCs consider crowd control when recruiting, i.e. don't employ short/thin people with quiet voices

How ridiculous.

underbank said:
As for stations, how about the TOCs consider crowd control when recruiting, i.e. don't employ short/thin people with quiet voices

theironroad · 8 May 2019

driver_m said:
I know someone suggested this a long time ago, but maybe it’s time to monetise this desire and demand for videos photos etc and also have a place for dedicated hardcore spotters or those keen to expand their interest. Something similar to the aviation viewing parks like that at Manchester. Some sort of elevated place that’s safe with trackside access at the more regularly photographed locations like Winwick Jn, Basford Hall etc etc. Or somewhere where good photographers would highly rate for photography, the likes of Paul Bigland or Mark5812 off that smugmug or whatever it was called. Run the Steam services past these locations exclusively to build up and make sure there are facilities. I honestly don’t know if it’s a good idea or a crazy one but it can’t stay as it is now, as one of us upfront is eventually going to suffer a fatality because of this desire for the perfect shot. I know I upset a few people on here with the comments about getting rid of steam off the main line , but I wasn’t a lone voice was I? You have to face that fact. There is so much anecdotal evidence even on here about arguments and fights over getting in others ways whilst trying to video that you have to admit there’s a big problem that needs sorting. So what should be done?

Well the national railway museum has its viewing platform over the end of York station , but obviously that's just a add on to an already extensive museum.

Well having a dedicated, safe viewing platform or area sounds good, I think most of people causing problems won't bother using them, though a good set up with some mobile displays and volunteers helping explain and a slowish (but reasonable speed) pass of the FS would be and event to attract people. However, I also guess they can do that when the FS goes on tour to heritage railways.

yorkie · 8 May 2019

driver_m said:
... have a place for dedicated hardcore spotters or those keen to expand their interest. Something similar to the aviation viewing parks like that at Manchester. Some sort of elevated place that’s safe with trackside access at the more regularly photographed locations like Winwick Jn, Basford Hall etc etc. Or somewhere where good photographers would highly rate for photography, the likes of Paul Bigland or Mark5812 off that smugmug or whatever it was called. Run the Steam services past these locations exclusively ...

What would the cost be, what would the capacity be, how often would that capacity be used, how would you control access, and how would the steam services pass these locations exclusively?

I am unsure what exactly is being suggested but it sounds totally unfeasible.

Ianno87 · 8 May 2019

yorkie said:
What would the cost be, what would the capacity be, how often would that capacity be used, how would you control access, and how would the steam services pass these locations exclusively?

I am unsure what exactly is being suggested but it sounds totally unfeasible.

....and what would make enthuasists use them when they can just stand on any station/ fence line in the country!

Not like an Airport where, if you're not at an airport or its immediate surroundings, aircraft are so high spotting them isn't much fun!

stj · 8 May 2019

I first was hauled by 4472 in the 80s on a private charter and witnessed stupidity back then with many of the passengers going down on the track in front of the loco whilst stopped in the station.

noddingdonkey · 8 May 2019

ArchieWoodbine said:
Do you mean you climbed over a fence or strayed off a crossing to get a good view trackside? Apologies if I'm misinterpretting it, but it sounds like that's what you're advocating.

I think it's prefectly clear; his photos on the first occasion were poor so he got permission to access to private property adjoining the line for the second occasion, providing a clear view over or through the fence. I'm stumped by how you could infer trespassing on the railway from that.

theironroad · 8 May 2019

noddingdonkey said:
I think it's prefectly clear; his photos on the first occasion were poor so he got permission to access to private property adjoining the line for the second occasion, providing a clear view over or through the fence. I'm stumped by how you could infer trespassing on the railway from that.

The problem is it is not perfectly clear.

I'm guessing you don't sign the rule book.

' lineside' has a technical definition in the rule book , which is an area WITHIN the boundary fence of the railway and the area between the fence and running rails. Any member of the public who is 'linesdie' is trespassing and would be considered a trespasser which would result in all trains having to run at caution until it was determined by an examining train or MOM , BTP etc that the tresspasser was now clear.

The poster stated he realised he or she needed to be 'line side', not as you state 'adjoining' the line....

gimmea50anyday · 8 May 2019

Slightly off topic, bit that pub/bar/grill by the runway at Man Airport is a cracking joint! Summer afternoon in the massive beer garden enjoying a burger, beer and cider while watching the Emirates A380 and Virgin's 747 in amongst the plethora of other flights is a cracking way to spend a day. Kids love it not just for the planes but for the play area too

noddingdonkey · 8 May 2019

I'm guessing you're making unreasonable expectations about enthusiasts' knowledge of the rule book. I don't think it's unreasonable for non railway staff to use "line side" (which if you're being as pedantic as you are, is not necessarily the same as "lineside") as casual shorthand for "at the side of the railway.

If you were commenting on a statement made by railway staff you would have a fair point. But in the circumstances, not so much.

BRblue · 9 May 2019

noddingdonkey said:
I think it's prefectly clear; his photos on the first occasion were poor so he got permission to access to private property adjoining the line for the second occasion, providing a clear view over or through the fence. I'm stumped by how you could infer trespassing on the railway from that.

Not perfectly clear at all I'm afraid... you are presuming that he was the right side of the fence, he doesn't actually say whether he was or not.

driver_m · 9 May 2019

yorkie said:
What would the cost be, what would the capacity be, how often would that capacity be used, how would you control access, and how would the steam services pass these locations exclusively?

I am unsure what exactly is being suggested but it sounds totally unfeasible.

Have you got any better ideas then? What’s your solution to this problem?

Ianno87 · 9 May 2019

driver_m said:
Have you got any better ideas then? What’s your solution to this problem?

The Manchester Runway Visitor Park basically works by affording a much better view of the runway than is possible from any part of the terminal or boundary fence (apart from possibly The Airport pub).

Keeps enthusiasts happy (Manchester Airport has always been very good at this*), makes a little bit of 'easy' revenue and keeps the terminals clear of spotters (where there used to be dedicated terraces - now closed, and good views from landside areas - now behind security)

*The side effect was setting my expectations for every other airport unrealistically high when growing up!

Gemz91 · 9 May 2019

driver_m said:
I know someone suggested this a long time ago, but maybe it’s time to monetise this desire and demand for videos photos etc and also have a place for dedicated hardcore spotters or those keen to expand their interest. Something similar to the aviation viewing parks like that at Manchester. Some sort of elevated place that’s safe with trackside access at the more regularly photographed locations like Winwick Jn, Basford Hall etc etc. Or somewhere where good photographers would highly rate for photography, the likes of Paul Bigland or Mark5812 off that smugmug or whatever it was called. Run the Steam services past these locations exclusively to build up and make sure there are facilities. I honestly don’t know if it’s a good idea or a crazy one but it can’t stay as it is now, as one of us upfront is eventually going to suffer a fatality because of this desire for the perfect shot. I know I upset a few people on here with the comments about getting rid of steam off the main line , but I wasn’t a lone voice was I? You have to face that fact. There is so much anecdotal evidence even on here about arguments and fights over getting in others ways whilst trying to video that you have to admit there’s a big problem that needs sorting. So what should be done?

Who would pay for these viewing areas?

Would these areas otherwise be known as Heritage Railways?

driver_m · 9 May 2019

Gemz91 said:
Who would pay for these viewing areas?

Would these areas otherwise be known as Heritage Railways?

I refer you to my question to Yorkie. What’s your solution? The Heritage Railway is the actual idea I said in the first place (ie banning them from the mainline) but staff suggesting that on here seems to cause a bit of upset. So I tried to come up with some actual alternatives that spared upsetting the feelings of some spotters on here. Good job I don’t run the railways or you’d be saying bye bye to steam on the mainline for the foreseeable future to teach people a lesson.

BackOnTheTrain · 9 May 2019

http://media.btp.police.uk/r/16461/urgent_appeal_and_warning_issued_ahead_of_flying_

09 May 2019 13:59
Urgent appeal and warning issued ahead of Flying Scotsman journey

Flying Scotsman - Trespass

View | Download(JPG - 85 KB)
British Transport Police are today issuing an appeal for information as well as an urgent warning following numerous railway trespass incidents on Sunday 5 May.

During the iconic Flying Scotsman’s journey across the East Midlands, a number of people illegally accessed the tracks near Burton on Trent and Tamworth attempting to view the historic engine, causing significant disruption to rail services.

A total of 56 trains saw services being disrupted, with nearly 1,000 minutes of delays being so far calculated. In one instance, two enthusiasts stood incredibly closely to the tracks, with a line speed of 125mph.

Chief Inspector Gareth Davies from British Transport Police, said: “It is extremely disappointing that a small minority of rail enthusiasts put their lives in grave danger in an attempt to take photos of the Flying Scotsman. Quite frankly, they should know better and we are today sending a strong message that this will not be tolerated.

“We’re making a number of urgent enquiries to identify those who trespassed on the tracks, I would therefore ask anyone with information to get in touch.

“The railway is an extremely hazardous environment, trespassing could result in serious injury or even death. In order to prevent further incidents, we’re stepping up our patrols when the Flying Scotsman is out on the rail network – those caught trespassing or obstructing trains can expect to be prosecuted.”

As part of enquiries into incidents on Sunday 5 May, officers are releasing a photo of two people they wish to speak with in connection to a trespass incident near Elford. Anyone who recognises this man and woman is asked to contact BTP by sending a text to 61016 or by calling 0800 40 50 40.

Today (9 May), the legendary locomotive is travelling between York and Edinburgh along the East Coast Mainline. BTP will have a number of resources out across the network to deter trespass offences. Officers will be working alongside Networks Rail and Train Operating Companies.

If anyone witnesses a trespass incident, they are advised to call the police immediately on 999.

British Transport Police (BTP) is reminding those planning a visit to see the famous steam engine about the dangers of edging too close to the tracks and is issuing the following advice:

• Use safe vantage points to view and take pictures of the train
• Stay clear of the line
• Do not risk your safety and that of other by trespassing on the tracks
• Respect landowners by obtaining permission before going on to any private land

bramling · 9 May 2019

driver_m said:
I refer you to my question to Yorkie. What’s your solution? The Heritage Railway is the actual idea I said in the first place (ie banning them from the mainline) but staff suggesting that on here seems to cause a bit of upset. So I tried to come up with some actual alternatives that spared upsetting the feelings of some spotters on here. Good job I don’t run the railways or you’d be saying bye bye to steam on the mainline for the foreseeable future to teach people a lesson.

If jumping straight for the scattergun is your style then with the best will in the world I hope you don’t end up in a position where you’re running the railways, or for that matter managing people.

Using this method to “teach people a lesson” never works well. It’s an approach one sadly sees all too often - for example manager has run in with a spare driver over a job, so said manager announces to the world “stuff it from now on I’m going to hold *all* spares to time”, so teaching a lesson to the other five in the room who have been good as gold. Or the person who sends group emails about performance rather than deal with a single individual because they don’t have the confidence or ability to have a one-to-one with a difficult character. This approach simply doesn’t work well, and should only be an absolute last resort.

As to resolving the issue, the short answer is to enforce existing legislation as far as possible, and make it clear this is happening. By the looks of it this is the approach being adopted.

Clip · 9 May 2019

BackOnTheTrain said:
http://media.btp.police.uk/r/16461/urgent_appeal_and_warning_issued_ahead_of_flying_

This is all well and good but that needs to be in news outlets everywhere not just a statement on their own site hoping that a news organisation may read it and want it

Robin Edwards · 9 May 2019

BackOnTheTrain said:
http://media.btp.police.uk/r/16461/urgent_appeal_and_warning_issued_ahead_of_flying_

Name, Shame and let BTP do their thing - it may make the difference with these two next time round.

Gemz91 · 9 May 2019

driver_m said:
I refer you to my question to Yorkie. What’s your solution? The Heritage Railway is the actual idea I said in the first place (ie banning them from the mainline) but staff suggesting that on here seems to cause a bit of upset. So I tried to come up with some actual alternatives that spared upsetting the feelings of some spotters on here. Good job I don’t run the railways or you’d be saying bye bye to steam on the mainline for the foreseeable future to teach people a lesson.

Answered your own question there!

Either that, or make an example of a few people. Hand out football style banning orders to spotters guilty of breaking the law. Ban them from within three miles of anyway railway line and make them hand in their senior railcard and camera to the police station when ever there is a special train running in their area.

More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

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