Rejection from Northern

Hi there

I've recently applied for the trainee conductor role advertised with Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria.

I sent the application off last week and I have received an e-mail back stating they have had many applications but on consideration they won't be taking my application any further at this time. Unfortunately, they say they cannot provide any feedback at this stage of the process.

Very disappointing but I wondered if anyone else has had any similar experiences like this? I am 38 and I have been a police officer for 15 years so I thought maybe my background would be an advantage. Clearly not!!!

C J

C J Snarzell said:

I am 38 and I have been a police officer for 15 years so I thought maybe my background would be an advantage. Clearly not!!!

C J

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Advantage, yes possibly. However, it is not a guarantee.

As this is customer service orientated, I would suggest that someone in Retail would trump Police Officer for this role.

C J Snarzell said:

Hi there

I've recently applied for the trainee conductor role advertised with Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria.

I sent the application off last week and I have received an e-mail back stating they have had many applications but on consideration they won't be taking my application any further at this time. Unfortunately, they say they cannot provide any feedback at this stage of the process.

Very disappointing but I wondered if anyone else has had any similar experiences like this? I am 38 and I have been a police officer for 15 years so I thought maybe my background would be an advantage. Clearly not!!!

C J

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CJ, how much effort did you put into the application? Only reason why I ask is my first application for trainee train driver I completed quite quickly , and stupidly assumed with my background/experience it would have been a breeze to get through the sift. I never appreciated how many applications for rail positions there are and the competition for positions. If you, like me, on first application did this I'd suggest on next chance to really lok at the job spec and tailor your answers/responses accordingly, using all the skills you've obtained in "the job" such as resilience, customer focus, safety etc etc and next time I think you'll fly through.
Good luck and don't let the knock back put you off

C J Snarzell said:

Hi there

I've recently applied for the trainee conductor role advertised with Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria.

I sent the application off last week and I have received an e-mail back stating they have had many applications but on consideration they won't be taking my application any further at this time. Unfortunately, they say they cannot provide any feedback at this stage of the process.

Very disappointing but I wondered if anyone else has had any similar experiences like this? I am 38 and I have been a police officer for 15 years so I thought maybe my background would be an advantage. Clearly not!!!

C J

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As others have said you will have plenty of examples of customer service and dealing with emergency situations, but it is about ensuring that your examples are fully explained along sure that all of the competencies are covered in your answers.

I had a look at my application and then broke down my answers and spent another day cross referencing against the competencies again as I did not feel that it was good enough.

As Quin stated there is fierce competition for places, but many have knock backs before being successful.

You will be better prepared on the next application!

C J Snarzell said:

Hi there

I've recently applied for the trainee conductor role advertised with Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria.

I sent the application off last week and I have received an e-mail back stating they have had many applications but on consideration they won't be taking my application any further at this time. Unfortunately, they say they cannot provide any feedback at this stage of the process.

Very disappointing but I wondered if anyone else has had any similar experiences like this? I am 38 and I have been a police officer for 15 years so I thought maybe my background would be an advantage. Clearly not!!!

C J

Click to expand...

Assuming you actually had the opportunity to detail your experiences and competencies and not just put your career history in the form;

Based on the candidates I’ve seen from police backgrounds and It’s no reflection on you of course as I haven’t seen your application - There are often a fair few police officers who apply for the current role I do (not a million miles away from a police officer role in itself), and the applications we get a lot of the time aren’t very in-depth in terms of buzz words or competencies, and seem to rely on the fact that they are, or have been a police officer.

You need to think about what it is they want, and how best you can deliver that. Emphasise on customer service and safety, and if there’s a part of the form to explain why you’d be ideal for the role, be more in depth than saying, “I’d be a good conductor because of my background in policing yadda yadda yadda”. They want you to stand out from the crowd if they’re going to progress you beyond the sift. There will have been literally hundreds of applicants, after all.

Stigy said:

Assuming you actually had the opportunity to detail your experiences and competencies and not just put your career history in the form;

Based on the candidates I’ve seen from police backgrounds and It’s no reflection on you of course as I haven’t seen your application - There are often a fair few police officers who apply for the current role I do (not a million miles away from a police officer role in itself), and the applications we get a lot of the time aren’t very in-depth in terms of buzz words or competencies, and seem to rely on the fact that they are, or have been a police officer.

You need to think about what it is they want, and how best you can deliver that. Emphasise on customer service and safety, and if there’s a part of the form to explain why you’d be ideal for the role, be more in depth than saying, “I’d be a good conductor because of my background in policing yadda yadda yadda”. They want you to stand out from the crowd if they’re going to progress you beyond the sift. There will have been literally hundreds of applicants, after all.

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Unfortunately I think there are a few police officers who think they will simply breeze into the railway and be welcomed with open arms (not saying you are one of them CJ!!). We have transferable skills but still to make sure the form is up to scratch.

Daydr3am3r said:

Unfortunately I think there are a few police officers who think they will simply breeze into the railway and be welcomed with open arms (not saying you are one of them CJ!!). We have transferable skills but still to make sure the form is up to scratch.

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I underestimated it first time around. Really invested a lot of time and effort second time and just booked an assessment centre in July. Hoping and keeping everything crossed for my exit strategy to come into effect

Quin79 said:

I underestimated it first time around. Really invested a lot of time and effort second time and just booked an assessment centre in July. Hoping and keeping everything crossed for my exit strategy to come into effect

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Good luck, if I can help at all let me know!

Daydr3am3r said:

Good luck, if I can help at all let me know!

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Thanks so much for the offer. I think from research the tests will be hard to prepare for and will either have the skills or not. I'm trying to be optimistic but deep down prepared for the worst. The interviews I am not so worried about as always been a forte, but we shall see

C J Snarzell said:

Hi there

I've recently applied for the trainee conductor role advertised with Northern Rail at Manchester Victoria.

I sent the application off last week and I have received an e-mail back stating they have had many applications but on consideration they won't be taking my application any further at this time. Unfortunately, they say they cannot provide any feedback at this stage of the process.

Very disappointing but I wondered if anyone else has had any similar experiences like this? I am 38 and I have been a police officer for 15 years so I thought maybe my background would be an advantage. Clearly not!!!

C J

Click to expand...

Becoming a Police officer is no easy task so think of the obvious here. Why would someone who's spent a lot of effort becoming a Police officer want to throw all that away for a job on the railway? We know the answer or rather the primary reason....the money.
An application scoring criteria in any organisation is always "Motivation for role", so some applicants need to provide far more solid motivational reasons for the change than others. Your motivation for a job anywhere will have a direct correlation on how much effort you intend to put into that role, it's a fact of life. No company wants anyone who will do the bare minimum to collect the salary at the end of the month.
Also as others have mentioned most people now know a career on the railway is not this crappy demeaning job it was when i started under British Rail, they are well paid, lots of benefits and great working conditions so competition is fierce AND the are many, many applications from the emergency services.

Learn from the experience and apply again, brief examples of what you have done to match the criteria. Anyone can say i'm amazing and i can do this and that, it means nothing to anyone scoring the app, written examples of those behaviours are what counts at the application stage. Chin up, very few get in on the first attempt.

Daydr3am3r said:

Unfortunately I think there are a few police officers who think they will simply breeze into the railway and be welcomed with open arms.

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Very much so. I've seen ex coppers come and go on the railway as drivers thinking it's a walk in the park and then screwing up monumentally. Some sacked, some hanging on by a thread. All the ones who have screwed up that I know have had terrible attitudes and a massive sense of entitlement.

I've also seen some ex coppers do well as drivers, but they tend to be the ones with a bit of a humility and a proactive, positive approach to the job. I guess the ones who make good drivers were probably good police officers, while the ones that have made bad drivers were probably rotten apples in the police if the attitudes I've seen are anything to go by.

Anyone can get a job on the railway if they keep plugging away. I don't think being in the police is an advantage or a disadvantage. All that matters is what kind of attitude you bring to the role.

Thanks for all the posts on here which is greatly appreciated.

On reflection I didn't download any details of references or provide information about people who would provide them. I did state on my CV that references can be obtained as and when they are required. Maybe this part of the application process was what let me down but sadly Northern state they don't provide feedback at this early stage.

Can anyone off their advice about this? I downloaded my CV and a cover letter on the first part of the on-line application, but on the field for referees I simply provided a note with a couple of sentences about references being provided as and when they are required.

C J

Always meet the criteria of the application, then tailor your information for the role. If there was a request for a Referee then it should have been provided. It is well known (at least on this forum) that the smallest thing on your application can let you down. The railway is in a position where they can pick and choose at will and be very very picky about it. When I was recruiting (back in a previous life) If I had put out an advert and requested references and the applicant didn't provide them, or stated they would be available when needed, I would think they were hiding something. I would also think that it was a failure on the applicants part that they didn't provide information that was requested.

When I had a bulk load of applications, the first thing I always did was bin anyone who didn't meet the basic criteria requested. Another prime example with rail recruitment is the distance from depot. If the TOC wants 10 miles then ensure you are within that. Granted people state they are willing to relocate but if I had applicants that were already meeting that criteria then they would be higher up the list.

Maybe a few years ago being a Copper was an advantage as less applicants were coming from that field. Now there seems to be an abundance, giving the TOC the ability to cherry pick.

Personally I think the initial sift is the hardest to get through; especially as feedback is rarely provided. It is very hard to stand out during the initial sift and the move towards online applications, I believe, is making it harder because the tiniest thing will make the computer reject an application.

What you may also need to do has already been highlighted. Tailor your information to the role applied for. Conductors are very customer service based so push that. Drivers are safety based so lean towards that.

Never rest on your laurels and assume your going to get a role. There are hundreds applying for a role so you are a tiny fish in a very big pond. There are other applicants with equal or greater skills that you. You may be perfect for the role but a small thing may had tipped the balance to another applicant.

Most importantly, NEVER give up. Plenty of people get knocked back and as we never really know why that was they tend to get downhearted and have a feeling of failure. It may have been a simple thing like the references or something beyond your control and they simply reached too many applications so pulled the recruitment for a bit. I was knocked back and it transpired that the TOC I applied for had just lost a huge contract so pulled all recruitment. I got a generic rejection letter. I just keep applying and pushing harder till I got the job.

They haven't said you can't apply in the future and they haven't said you need to wait 6 months. So take that as a positive and reapply at the next opportunity. Also, maybe take a different route. Get a different role at that TOC and wait till something comes up internally. Build up your skills etc.

Whatever happens and whatever you decide, good luck with it all.

ComUtoR said:

Always meet the criteria of the application, then tailor your information for the role. If there was a request for a Referee then it should have been provided. It is well known (at least on this forum) that the smallest thing on your application can let you down. The railway is in a position where they can pick and choose at will and be very very picky about it. When I was recruiting (back in a previous life) If I had put out an advert and requested references and the applicant didn't provide them, or stated they would be available when needed, I would think they were hiding something. I would also think that it was a failure on the applicants part that they didn't provide information that was requested.

When I had a bulk load of applications, the first thing I always did was bin anyone who didn't meet the basic criteria requested. Another prime example with rail recruitment is the distance from depot. If the TOC wants 10 miles then ensure you are within that. Granted people state they are willing to relocate but if I had applicants that were already meeting that criteria then they would be higher up the list.

Maybe a few years ago being a Copper was an advantage as less applicants were coming from that field. Now there seems to be an abundance, giving the TOC the ability to cherry pick.

Personally I think the initial sift is the hardest to get through; especially as feedback is rarely provided. It is very hard to stand out during the initial sift and the move towards online applications, I believe, is making it harder because the tiniest thing will make the computer reject an application.

What you may also need to do has already been highlighted. Tailor your information to the role applied for. Conductors are very customer service based so push that. Drivers are safety based so lean towards that.

Never rest on your laurels and assume your going to get a role. There are hundreds applying for a role so you are a tiny fish in a very big pond. There are other applicants with equal or greater skills that you. You may be perfect for the role but a small thing may had tipped the balance to another applicant.

Most importantly, NEVER give up. Plenty of people get knocked back and as we never really know why that was they tend to get downhearted and have a feeling of failure. It may have been a simple thing like the references or something beyond your control and they simply reached too many applications so pulled the recruitment for a bit. I was knocked back and it transpired that the TOC I applied for had just lost a huge contract so pulled all recruitment. I got a generic rejection letter. I just keep applying and pushing harder till I got the job.

They haven't said you can't apply in the future and they haven't said you need to wait 6 months. So take that as a positive and reapply at the next opportunity. Also, maybe take a different route. Get a different role at that TOC and wait till something comes up internally. Build up your skills etc.

Whatever happens and whatever you decide, good luck with it all.

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Good advice. Also, to add, if I had a few applicants apply for a job where I’d specifically asked for something (references etc.) and the applicant hadn’t supplied these, I’d see it as a lack of attention to detail, which isn’t a good trait to have for any job, not least one where communication and rule following are key.

And definitely agree never to give up. It’s so easy to give up and think “what’s the point?” But there’s every point if you truly want the job.

The papersift is definitely one of the hardest parts. Once you’re through to interview stage, is when a background in policing can be an advantage as you’ll have loads of competency examples to use for the questions put to you.

Reminds me of the Viz top tip...

Employers - ensure you only hire lucky people by throwing half the application forms you receive in the bin.

Monkey47 said:

Becoming a Police officer is no easy task so think of the obvious here. Why would someone who's spent a lot of effort becoming a Police officer want to throw all that away for a job on the railway? We know the answer or rather the primary reason....the money.
An application scoring criteria in any organisation is always "Motivation for role", so some applicants need to provide far more solid motivational reasons for the change than others. Your motivation for a job anywhere will have a direct correlation on how much effort you intend to put into that role, it's a fact of life. No company wants anyone who will do the bare minimum to collect the salary at the end of the month.
Also as others have mentioned most people now know a career on the railway is not this crappy demeaning job it was when i started under British Rail, they are well paid, lots of benefits and great working conditions so competition is fierce AND the are many, many applications from the emergency services.

Learn from the experience and apply again, brief examples of what you have done to match the criteria. Anyone can say i'm amazing and i can do this and that, it means nothing to anyone scoring the app, written examples of those behaviours are what counts at the application stage. Chin up, very few get in on the first attempt.

Click to expand...

The money is good but to be fair for a 10 year Constable or a Sergeant there is not a huge difference, depending on individual TOC’s.
I think the work/life balance offered on the railway along with a tendency to feel valued is a huge factor for those in the police at this time.

C J Snarzell said:

Thanks for all the posts on here which is greatly appreciated.

On reflection I didn't download any details of references or provide information about people who would provide them. I did state on my CV that references can be obtained as and when they are required. Maybe this part of the application process was what let me down but sadly Northern state they don't provide feedback at this early stage.

Can anyone off their advice about this? I downloaded my CV and a cover letter on the first part of the on-line application, but on the field for referees I simply provided a note with a couple of sentences about references being provided as and when they are required.

C J

Click to expand...

From my knowledge on how this process goes, the initial paper sift is actually run through a computer program. TOCs receive thousands of applications when a role is advertised. It's just too time consuming for humans to scroll through all these applications and hand select potential candidates.

The computer program works on a "buzzword" style sifting process making sure applications have hit the essential and desirable criteria before HR physically start selecting CVs to analyse. I believe this is where you really need to be on the ball with your application as there's opportunity for them to pick and choose who they genuinely believe will be a good candidate for the role .

With experience in emergency services, you can automatically hit all of these essential and desirable criteria as long as you present the CV in a specific and "stand out" way.

Following this automatic sift, this is the part of the process where minor details such as spelling, punctuation and general information becomes more serious. Not to mention the fact that one of the key requirements most TOCs request is a "keen eye for detail".

This doesn't just apply to the rail industry either, most large corporations and companies use this method through their application processes.

Hope this helps for your next application!

Thanks for all the advice on here.

The only reason I didn't mention my referees was perhaps because when I last applied for a job many years ago I was advised to keep the referee details close at hand until such time a potential employer requested them which was usually if they were actually offering you the job.

20 years ago, a good friend of mine lost his job with a recruitment agency because the other company he had applied for contacted his present employers for a reference early on and sadly he didn't get the job he had applied for. His present employer (the agency) made him redundant a couple of week later. The agency laid him off and stated it was because of cut backs but he knew it was because he had not shown enough loyalty and they found out he had applied elsewhere for another job.

I have actually left the police service now so it doesn't really matter but I think my main issue is the fact I haven't applied for a job in over 16 years so I would describe myself as 'rusty'. That said an old friend of my mum's has helped me out with CV writing and he hit the nail on the head when he said applying for jobs is an art that has to be perfected to absolute precision. Rejections will only help you improve the next time round.

Again thanks for the advice on here. I get the impression Northern Rail get swamped with applications for most of their posts so its critical I get it right!!!

C J

C J Snarzell said:

Thanks for all the advice on here.

The only reason I didn't mention my referees was perhaps because when I last applied for a job many years ago I was advised to keep the referee details close at hand until such time a potential employer requested them which was usually if they were actually offering you the job.

20 years ago, a good friend of mine lost his job with a recruitment agency because the other company he had applied for contacted his present employers for a reference early on and sadly he didn't get the job he had applied for. His present employer (the agency) made him redundant a couple of week later. The agency laid him off and stated it was because of cut backs but he knew it was because he had not shown enough loyalty and they found out he had applied elsewhere for another job.

I have actually left the police service now so it doesn't really matter but I think my main issue is the fact I haven't applied for a job in over 16 years so I would describe myself as 'rusty'. That said an old friend of my mum's has helped me out with CV writing and he hit the nail on the head when he said applying for jobs is an art that has to be perfected to absolute precision. Rejections will only help you improve the next time round.

Again thanks for the advice on here. I get the impression Northern Rail get swamped with applications for most of their posts so its critical I get it right!!!

C J

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In my experience of applying for jobs specifically in the rail industry, TOCs/FOCs will only approach referees once you've been offered and have accepted a job (they usually specifically say this somewhere during applying I've found?). Regarding the CV; you need to stand out from the crowd, and not bore prospective employers either. Keep it to no more than 2-sheets of A4 and take the time to make sure there's no spelling/grammatical errors tart it up a bit. There are loads of free templates knocking about. I used a Microsoft Office template I think.

Hi there

I've just received another e-mail from Northern again saying my application has failed the paper sift for one of the apprenticeship roles I applied for at the beginning of April. To be fair, I sent my application for that job before the job vacancy for a conductor at Manchester Victoria so I'm only assuming I failed for the same reasons we've discussed on here before.

I've since applied for another job advertised but I've redraughted my CV and amended a couple of lines on the cover letter. With regards to the issue of references I have actually done a A4 sheet on Microsoft word that shows the names and contact details of two referees who have kindly offered, which I have scanned into the reference tab on the application.

Can anyone advise me if this is okay? Most employers only usually approach referees at the final stage of taking you on so I'm assuming the actual references don't have to be forwarded to Northern on the initial application? Also it gives the referees some time to put pen to paper and give me a glowing reference!

Just some guidance about this would be appreciated.

Regards

C J

C J Snarzell said:

Hi there

I've just received another e-mail from Northern again saying my application has failed the paper sift for one of the apprenticeship roles I applied for at the beginning of April. To be fair, I sent my application for that job before the job vacancy for a conductor at Manchester Victoria so I'm only assuming I failed for the same reasons we've discussed on here before.

I've since applied for another job advertised but I've redraughted my CV and amended a couple of lines on the cover letter. With regards to the issue of references I have actually done a A4 sheet on Microsoft word that shows the names and contact details of two referees who have kindly offered, which I have scanned into the reference tab on the application.

Can anyone advise me if this is okay? Most employers only usually approach referees at the final stage of taking you on so I'm assuming the actual references don't have to be forwarded to Northern on the initial application? Also it gives the referees some time to put pen to paper and give me a glowing reference!

Just some guidance about this would be appreciated.

Regards

C J

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Sorry to hear this.

If they don’t ask for references at this stage, then no need to supply them unless they form part of your CV. Don’t give up, as you know it’s such a competitive industry with hundreds, if not thousands of applicants. Just keep chipping away and use those ‘safety’ and ‘customer service’ buzzwords in any forms you submit which assess competencies.

Northern have for some years recruited "a little" inconsistently. I wouldn't get down about them too much, just scattergun them with applications ... and consider other train operators - if this means applying outside the area, being prepared to temporarily relocate whilst you qualify as a guard and get a year or so's experience, then so be it. You will get through if you remain persistent, so don't give up hope.

I'd wouldn't include referees details with an application (and never on my CV) unless specifically asked to do so.

I just wanted to clarify if actual references are required for the initial application.

I've ensured I've included the details of referees which Northern request as part of the initial application but I wanted to double check to see if this is okay?

I would assume best practice is for Northern to contact referees themselves so it rules out any bad practice. For example, you might already be in possession of the references yourself but there's nothing to say the reference is a few years out of date?

I would find that if the potential employer (Northern) contacts your referee directly then they are getting the information straight from the horses mouth.

C J

Your prospective employer will contact your referees as to be fair you don’t know what questions they might ask them!

C J Snarzell said:

I just wanted to clarify if actual references are required for the initial application.

I've ensured I've included the details of referees which Northern request as part of the initial application but I wanted to double check to see if this is okay?

I would assume best practice is for Northern to contact referees themselves so it rules out any bad practice. For example, you might already be in possession of the references yourself but there's nothing to say the reference is a few years out of date?

I would find that if the potential employer (Northern) contacts your referee directly then they are getting the information straight from the horses mouth.

C J

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If Northampton have asked for references as part of the initial process then you should supply them. If they haven’t, you shouldn’t. When I mentioned references being on your CV, I meant just the contact details of said referees as opposed to actual references they gave you.

When a company contacts referees they usually ask a series of closed questions to ascertain basic facts and then ask how long you worked for said company etc if the referee is from your employer.