'Go via' yields no results for reasonable route (Coventry to Bolton)

td97 · 8 May 2019

Of behalf of an acquaintance;
For an advanced journey from Coventry (COV) to Bolton (BON), I would like to purchase a ticket via Wigan North Western (WGN) on the VT service. Choosing 'go via' and WGN yields no results. (The standard routing is via Manchester)
Doesn't matter if I choose a date pre- or post- TT change
I'm fully aware an anytime WGN-BON can just be purchased additionally.

The main query lies with why is the via Manchester route 'encouraged' on journey planners, on the packed XC service, when a quicker alternative exists, and why isn't my reasonable route accepted?
Thanks in advance

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 8 May 2019

td97 said:
Of behalf of an acquaintance;
For an advanced journey from Coventry (COV) to Bolton (BON), I would like to purchase a ticket via Wigan North Western (WGN) on the VT service. Choosing 'go via' and WGN yields no results. (The standard routing is via Manchester)
Doesn't matter if I choose a date pre- or post- TT change
I'm fully aware an anytime WGN-BON can just be purchased additionally.

The main query lies with why is the via Manchester route 'encouraged' on journey planners, on the packed XC service, when a quicker alternative exists, and why isn't my reasonable route accepted?
Thanks in advance

Via Wigan certainly isn't a totally unreasonable route, but it's not a permitted route as far as I can tell.

An easy workaround would simply be to buy a ticket to Wigan instead. It costs the same as a ticket to Bolton but you gain the ability to travel via the Wigan 'side' of the Warrington-Wigan-Bolton-Manchester 'quadrilateral'.

SickyNicky · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Via Wigan certainly isn't a totally unreasonable route, but it's not a permitted route as far as I can tell

It's not Permitted. But it's totally reasonable I think. And it's certainly the fastest way at certain times of day. For example, this morning the 07.42 gets you in at 10.09 (with one change). To avoid Wigan you'd need to get the 07.27, arriving at 10.13 (with 2 changes) or the 07.27, arriving at 10.22 (with one change).

scrapy · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
An easy workaround would simply be to buy a ticket to Wigan instead. It costs the same as a ticket to Bolton but you gain the ability to travel via the Wigan 'side' of the Warrington-Wigan-Bolton-Manchester 'quadrilateral'.

The OP doesn't say if this is a single or return trip. However if a single the ticket would have no further validity once they reach Wigan so they would not be able to travel onto Bolton. If a return then they could effectively start the return portion when they reached Wigan and break their return journey at Bolton. However the ticket would not be valid to then doubleback to Wigan as they would have to carry on via Manchester to complete the return trip.

Note that it is still possible to travel via Manchester and avoid Crosscountry (TFW or Northern to Crewe then onto Virgin is one option but will obviously usually take longer) if it's a particular loathing for Crosscountry the OP has.

Agreed though in my opinion it should be a valid route via Wigan it's more than reasonable. I'm just wondering if there has been a sneaky change in route validity as I'm sure route planners used to suggest Bolton to Euston via Wigan (without the need to enter a ''via' station) but no longer show that as a valid route either but I've never had a problem having a problem traveling that way and didnt realise until now it's not valid, have even had a taxi off Virgin to complete my journey that way when missed the Northern connection and have successfully claimed delay repay that way.

Ianno87 · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Via Wigan certainly isn't a totally unreasonable route, but it's not a permitted route as far as I can tell.

An easy workaround would simply be to buy a ticket to Wigan instead. It costs the same as a ticket to Bolton but you gain the ability to travel via the Wigan 'side' of the Warrington-Wigan-Bolton-Manchester 'quadrilateral'.

I'm sure it's been permitted in the past (I used to do it), and other routes from points south (e.g. London-Wigan-Bolton) I'm sure are.

How odd!

I'd be surprised if a Train Manager actually challenged you for taking it.

SickyNicky · 9 May 2019

Ianno87 said:
I'm sure it's been permitted in the past (I used to do it), and other routes from points south (e.g. London-Wigan-Bolton) I'm sure are.

Euston to Bolton via Wigan is not a Permitted Route, even though it seems very reasonable.

Ianno87 · 9 May 2019

SickyNicky said:
Euston to Bolton via Wigan is not a Permitted Route, even though it seems very reasonable.

It is often the fastest route! At least one journey per hour via Wigan overtakes a journey via Manchester. Might even be shorter in distance (can't remember)

How bizarre...

It has *certainly* been permitted until relatively recently.

ForTheLoveOf · 9 May 2019

scrapy said:
The OP doesn't say if this is a single or return trip. However if a single the ticket would have no further validity once they reach Wigan so they would not be able to travel onto Bolton. If a return then they could effectively start the return portion when they reached Wigan and break their return journey at Bolton. However the ticket would not be valid to then doubleback to Wigan as they would have to carry on via Manchester to complete the return trip.

Note that it is still possible to travel via Manchester and avoid Crosscountry (TFW or Northern to Crewe then onto Virgin is one option but will obviously usually take longer) if it's a particular loathing for Crosscountry the OP has.

Agreed though in my opinion it should be a valid route via Wigan it's more than reasonable. I'm just wondering if there has been a sneaky change in route validity as I'm sure route planners used to suggest Bolton to Euston via Wigan (without the need to enter a ''via' station) but no longer show that as a valid route either but I've never had a problem having a problem traveling that way and didnt realise until now it's not valid, have even had a taxi off Virgin to complete my journey that way when missed the Northern connection and have successfully claimed delay repay that way.

Well, in this case I withdraw my advice of a ticket to Wigan - instead, buy a ticket to Lostock. Costs the same as a ticket to Wigan or Bolton (it's in the same fares cluster as Bolton), but passes the fares check for both Bolton and Preston so you get all the Preston permitted routes, which include virtually all of the rather permissive map EP. It works for both a single or a return journey/ticket.

SickyNicky · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Well, in this case I withdraw my advice of a ticket to Wigan - instead, buy a ticket to Lostock. Costs the same as a ticket to Wigan or Bolton (it's in the same fares cluster as Bolton), but passes the fares check for both Bolton and Preston so you get all the Preston permitted routes, which include virtually all of the rather permissive map EP. It works for both a single or a return journey/ticket.

Hmmm. It looks like Euston -> Wigan -> Bolton -> Lostock isn't a Permitted Route. Euston -> Preston -> Lostock is, however.

scrapy · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Well, in this case I withdraw my advice of a ticket to Wigan - instead, buy a ticket to Lostock. Costs the same as a ticket to Wigan or Bolton (it's in the same fares cluster as Bolton), but passes the fares check for both Bolton and Preston so you get all the Preston permitted routes, which include virtually all of the rather permissive map EP. It works for both a single or a return journey/ticket.

I agree to Lostock it is valid via map EP however national rail enquiries gives itineraries via Leyland or Preston but not via Westhoughton so not sure if theres a negative easement somewhere?

SickyNicky · 9 May 2019

scrapy said:
I agree to Lostock it is valid via map EP however national rail enquiries gives itineraries via Leyland or Preston but not via Westhoughton so not sure if theres a negative easement somewhere?

Which is essentially what I was saying above. Our diagnostics show:

Code:

Checking G01-WIJ-WFJ-BLY-MKC-RUG-NUN-TAM-LTV-RGL-STA-CRE-G31-G34-BON
Off route at WIGAN GROUP
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.

ForTheLoveOf · 9 May 2019

I see no reason why it shouldn't be valid, providing you complete the double-back to/from Preston. See the attached image for what I mean - i.e. going up to Wigan, across to Bolton, up to Preston (as our destination Routeing Point), and then doubling back to Lostock as the local journey.

Obviously you would have to be booked on a train that doesn't call at Lostock when you go from Bolton to Preston, but there are plenty of those so that shouldn't be an issue.

SickyNicky · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I see no reason why it shouldn't be valid, providing you complete the double-back to/from Preston. See the attached image for what I mean - i.e. going up to Wigan, across to Bolton, up to Preston (as our destination Routeing Point), and then doubling back to Lostock as the local journey.

Ah .. I see what you're getting at. Your journey is EUS -> WGN -> BON -> PRE -> LOT, but you're going to stop short at BON. Yep - that validates fine, so is a Permitted Route.

ForTheLoveOf · 9 May 2019

SickyNicky said:
Ah .. I see what you're getting at. Your journey is EUS -> WGN -> BON -> PRE -> LOT, but you're going to stop short at BON. Yep - that validates fine, so is a Permitted Route.

Indeed, and you can even get TrainsCanBeCheaper to validate it with an itinerary on the Lostock ticket (see attachment).

In case anyone was wondering, the via points I put in were WGN, BON, PRE. Avoid was EBA.

Silverdale · 9 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Indeed, and you can even get TrainsCanBeCheaper to validate it with an itinerary on the Lostock ticket (see attachment).

The OP wants to travel to Bolton from Coventry, not Euston.

td97 · 9 May 2019

Thank you all for the replies. As someone more keen on the infrastructure side, it's quite interesting to see these unexpected fare structures, especially for a ticket to be valid with such a long detour via Preston.

The dislike towards XC is due to overcrowding (my acquaintance has done the journey a few times previously, and at times has had to stand with their bags in the vestibule despite having a seat reservation because it's just too full), and also this trip will be first class which is infinitely better on VT.

FWIW it will only be a single

kieron · 9 May 2019

Ianno87 said:
I'm sure it's been permitted in the past (I used to do it), and other routes from points south (e.g. London-Wigan-Bolton) I'm sure are.

From the look of it, this was permitted in the 2013 versions of the routeing guide, but not in those from 2014 on. I don't know the reason for any of the changes which were made then.

randyrippley · 10 May 2019

kieron said:
From the look of it, this was permitted in the 2013 versions of the routeing guide, but not in those from 2014 on. I don't know the reason for any of the changes which were made then.

Off the wall guess..............Virgin had too many delay repay claims due to Nothern's non-performance on Wigan-Bolton......don't forget all the disruption due to electrification

scrapy · 10 May 2019

randyrippley said:
Off the wall guess..............Virgin had too many delay repay claims due to Nothern's non-performance on Wigan-Bolton......don't forget all the disruption due to electrification

Electrification of that route hadn't started in 2013. Under Serco Abellio Northerns performance was very good around 93%ppm at the time. Plus Virgin are not liable to pay delay repay for delays on another operators service.

yorksrob · 10 May 2019

Perhaps the key aim of the various fares consultations taking place at the moment should be to force unscrupulous TOC's to reinstate all reasonable routes removed since privatisation.

Ianno87 · 10 May 2019

scrapy said:
Electrification of that route hadn't started in 2013. Under Serco Abellio Northerns performance was very good around 93%ppm at the time. Plus Virgin are not liable to pay delay repay for delays on another operators service.

My guess would be Virgin/XC encouraging Boltonians onto the 3tph London/2tph Birmingham via Manchester, rather than loading up the 1tph to each via Wigan.

But strikes me as a very anti-passenger move, removing fast and relatively direct journey opportunities.

Haywain · 10 May 2019

Personally, I suspect cock-up more than conspiracy.

Silverdale · 10 May 2019

Out of interest were the Manchester-Scotland TPE services still running/calling at Bolton at the time the change to the validity of the any permitted ticket was made?

Ianno87 · 10 May 2019

Silverdale said:
Out of interest were the Manchester-Scotland TPE services still running/calling at Bolton at the time the change to the validity of the any permitted ticket was made?

That change was done in Dec 2013.

scrapy · 1 Aug 2019

Just an update to this thread. Bolton (and Kearsley, Farnworth, Moses Gate, Westhougton, Hall in th Wood and Bromley Cross) to Euston is now valid via Wigan, following a change this week after pressure on Virgin from local councillor. Annoyingly though Bolton to Coventry still isn't permitted via Wigan.

td97 · 2 Aug 2019

scrapy said:
Just an update to this thread. Bolton (and Kearsley, Farnworth, Moses Gate, Westhougton, Hall in th Wood and Bromley Cross) to Euston is now valid via Wigan, following a change this week after pressure on Virgin from local councillor. Annoyingly though Bolton to Coventry still isn't permitted via Wigan.

Thanks for the info

Trackman · 3 Aug 2019

I've just put Bolton-Coventry in for tomorrow via Wigan Wallgate (not NW, it doesn't work), it's showing a valid route from Wigan NW.
I guess this is due to VT running RRB's because of engineering work.
I've seen something similar happen before, but the VT trains were running from Wigan NW and the engineering works were between Bolton and Manchester.

yorkie · 3 Aug 2019

Trackman said:
I've just put Bolton-Coventry in for tomorrow via Wigan Wallgate (not NW, it doesn't work), it's showing a valid route from Wigan NW.
I guess this is due to VT running RRB's because of engineering work.
I've seen something similar happen before, but the VT trains were running from Wigan NW and the engineering works were between Bolton and Manchester.

If the rail replacement bus is at the start of the journey, then the routeing guide check will be done from where you board a train to your destination, and vice-versa if it's at the end of the journey.

Ianno87 · 4 Aug 2019

scrapy said:
Just an update to this thread. Bolton (and Kearsley, Farnworth, Moses Gate, Westhougton, Hall in th Wood and Bromley Cross) to Euston is now valid via Wigan, following a change this week after pressure on Virgin from local councillor. Annoyingly though Bolton to Coventry still isn't permitted via Wigan.

Perhaps related to this story ( https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/new...-can-now-get-farnworth-london-two-half-hours/ )

RAIL users in Farnworth and Kearsley can now to get to London in just two and a half hours.

Farnworth and Kearsley First councillor Paul Heslop wrote to Virgin Trains asking them to update their booking system to reflect that people living in the towns can reach the capital with just one change at Wigan North Western.

Previously, passengers booking tickets were told they must change twice at Salford Crescent and Manchester Piccadilly.

Incidentally, the fastest journey I could find in either direction was (a still impressive) 2hrs 34 mins, taking the 1657 or 1757 from Euston and changing at Wigan North Western.

A good positive move, restoring the fastest London to Bolton route again.

(Just ignore the usual BN commentors, refusing to recognise Bolton does actually have a half-decent, decent value train service)

Trackman · 6 Aug 2019

I've been in contact with said councillor and VT have rung him up.
VT say any ticket except advances are valid from Bolton to Coventry via Wigan NW (or any VT service namely the 29mins past one).
It's only the 11mins past from Wigan NW that is open to advances, and one extra at certain times of the day.
No help to the OP, but there you go..

'Go via' yields no results for reasonable route (Coventry to Bolton)

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