Summer time and the ENCTS bus pass

neilmc · 8 May 2019

Now that bus companies in touristy areas generally have moved on to summer timetables, are there any instances of local routes with only a summer service designated as being "primarily for tourism" and thus denying the use of ENCTS passes?

I haven't seen this in Cumbria on the Stagecoach network but it could be done! For instance, the driver on the 508 from Penrith could say that OAPs could use their pass as far as Patterdale as this section is all year round but would have to pay to go over the Kirkstone Pass to Windermere as that is summer-only and "primarily for tourism"! (Don't give them ideas Neil!)

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Bletchleyite · 8 May 2019

You could quite possibly designate the Langdale Rambler as that, but I don't believe Stagecoach generally do this.

The dedicated Snowdon Sherpa services could be the same but I don't think they are.

Baxenden Bank · 8 May 2019

"primarily for tourism" was intended to prevent free use of special tourist related services, such as open-top bus tours, which also tend to be registered as local bus services.

It was never intended to cover 'ordinary' bus services which happened to be used for leisure trips.

Since the cutbacks to council funding, and the failure to fully fund ENCTS through government grants, councils have been looking for innovative ways to raise money/reduce costs.

North Yorkshire County Council have used this ruse to prevent free travel on services into the countryside from West Yorkshire. They did a passenger survey and asked people for the purpose of their trip. Innocently, the majority of passengers put 'leisure' and ENCTS holders now have to pay. If they had put 'shopping' on the survey it would still be free!

In Staffordshire, services to Alton Towers operated by First and D & G charge premium fares and their own season tickets/multi-journey tickets are not valid. Neither specifically mention whether ENCTS is valid.

TheGrandWazoo · 8 May 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
North Yorkshire County Council have used this ruse to prevent free travel on services into the countryside from West Yorkshire. They did a passenger survey and asked people for the purpose of their trip. Innocently, the majority of passengers put 'leisure' and ENCTS holders now have to pay. If they had put 'shopping' on the survey it would still be free!

Don’t know if you can really argue that you’re going from Leeds to Settle for the retail experience

northrob · 8 May 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
Since the cutbacks to council funding, and the failure to fully fund ENCTS through government grants, councils have been looking for innovative ways to raise money/reduce costs.

North Yorkshire County Council have used this ruse to prevent free travel on services into the countryside from West Yorkshire. They did a passenger survey and asked people for the purpose of their trip. Innocently, the majority of passengers put 'leisure' and ENCTS holders now have to pay. If they had put 'shopping' on the survey it would still be free!

This usually applies the the Dalesbus services which run on Sundays & Bank Holidays, however it's the other way round. Going into North Yorkshire is free, getting out isn't.

TheGrandWazoo said:
Don’t know if you can really argue that you’re going from Leeds to Settle for the retail experience

In this example, going from Leeds to Settle would be free - would you have to pay (at least to the 1st stop in West Yorkshire) to get back...

EDIT - At least that appeared to be the case a few years ago! It looks like you can now get back into West Yorkshire for free.

People between Middlesbrough & Darlington on the 830 though would have to pay to get home.

https://www.dalesbus.org/fares.html

"Passes are however not valid for free travel on some demand responsive services nor for journeys starting in North Yorkshire, Lancashire or the City of York on the following Sunday and Bank Holiday DalesBus services: 822, 825, 830, 831 and 881."

Flange Squeal · 9 May 2019

Concessionary passes cannot be used for free travel on East Yorkshire’s route 109 open top service in Scarborough, however pass holders can get a discounted ticket (£3 rather than £4.50).

Plymouth City Bus have also registered a route ‘OCS’. This is an open top service branded Ocean City Sights, and again concessionary pass holders pay child fare.

xc170 · 9 May 2019

I do think ENCTS needs a bit of a rethink with passes issued being on a means tested basis for the elderly.

Harpers Tate · 9 May 2019

The semi-express service between Nottingham and Derby (and on, slow, to Chesterfield), "Red Arrow", has a quirk that ENCTS people starting in Nottingham pay (a sligtly reduced rate) but do not if travelling in the other direction. This decision is down to Nottinghamshire who elected to cease ENCTS funding for the route. Derbyshire, however, did not cease. Hence the difference. http://www.route-one.net/articles/Trent_Barton_addresses__confusion_ (Unless it has changed again more recently).

Robertj21a · 9 May 2019

Harpers Tate said:
The semi-express service between Nottingham and Derby (and on, slow, to Chesterfield), "Red Arrow", has a quirk that ENCTS people starting in Nottingham pay (a sligtly reduced rate) but do not if travelling in the other direction. This decision is down to Nottinghamshire who elected to cease ENCTS funding for the route. Derbyshire, however, did not cease. Hence the difference. http://www.route-one.net/articles/Trent_Barton_addresses__confusion_ (Unless it has changed again more recently).

I think Derbys now do the same. Red Arrow no longer goes on to Chesterfield.

Wirewiper · 9 May 2019

xc170 said:
I do think ENCTS needs a bit of a rethink with passes issued being on a means tested basis for the elderly.

Introducing means testing adds an extra layer of costly bureaucracy to the issuing process.

There are also good social reasons for making the pass available to all of State Retirement Age.

Wirewiper · 9 May 2019

Reading Buses operates a number of Football Special routes direct to Madejski Stadium for Reading FC home fixtures.

These are not free to ENCTS holders, except for journeys starting in the Borough of Wokingham* as that local authority is still willing to reimburse those journeys. However there is a £1 single/£2 return special fare for ENCTS pass holders that is subsidised by Reading FC.

* a passholder travelling from Borough of Wokingham would get a free journey to the Stadium and pay £1 single on the return journey.

abbo1234 · 9 May 2019

Stagecoach Merseyside and South Lancashire.

Summer service X8 Chorley to Keswick. ENCTS holders have to buy a Senior Citizen Explorer ticket.

ChrisC · 9 May 2019

Wirewiper said:
Introducing means testing adds an extra layer of costly bureaucracy to the issuing process.

There are also good social reasons for making the pass available to all of State Retirement Age.

I’m still 4 years away from State Retirement Age and if there was means testing I certainly would not qualify for a bus pass.
Having been retired now for 4 years with a work pension I have begun to travel quite a lot by public transport whilst visiting different areas of the country and I am quite used to paying. The Senior Railcard has been a fantastic bonus since I was eligible 2 years ago.

I agree that any kind of means testing will add an extra level of bureaucracy. That’s the problem with any new schemes which could run in conjunction with means testing. I currently use buses mostly when reasonably priced daily or weekly tickets are available covering most or preferably all buses in an area. Those local authorities which have multi-operator tickets covering whole counties are the most bus friendly for those who do have to pay for their travel. Unfortunately, where I live in rural Nottinghamshire, outside the City of Nottingham Boundary, such a Ticket is not available. Having to make a journey of only a few miles, involving more than one bus, with different operators can be extortionate. Despite the added bureaucracy, if means testing was to come about, I do think cheaper multi-operator tickets are then even more important. Even better some type of Senior Bus-card ought to be available to purchase which offered reasonable daily caps on all bus travel.

Flange Squeal · 9 May 2019

Whilst accepting that a change in legislation would be required for it to ever go ahead, Hampshire County Council still went ahead and held a consultation recently on an idea to generate £4m towards the £13.4m it spends on the concessionary travel scheme - charging pass holders 50p per single journey. In view of the realistic alternative, having some services reduced or cut, a surprising percentage of passengers were actually quite supportive of the idea!

Busaholic · 9 May 2019

Flange Squeal said:
Whilst accepting that a change in legislation would be required for it to ever go ahead, Hampshire County Council still went ahead and held a consultation recently on an idea to generate £4m towards the £13.4m it spends on the concessionary travel scheme - charging pass holders 50p per single journey. In view of the realistic alternative, having some services reduced or cut, a surprising percentage of passengers were actually quite supportive of the idea!

50p quickly becomes £1, then £1.50 etc etc, whereas free is still free, inflation included!

Flange Squeal · 9 May 2019

Busaholic said:
50p quickly becomes £1, then £1.50 etc etc, whereas free is still free, inflation included!

True, but what good is a free pass if you don’t have a local bus service to use it on as it was deemed too financially unviable and had to be cut?

Martin2012 · 11 May 2019

Does anyone know what the situation is here in Bristol regarding the use of passes on the special services to Ashton Gate Stadium?

Am pretty sure the ABUS ones do accept them but can't remember about the First ones.

RustySpoons · 11 May 2019

The ENCTS pass seems to be a common topic of discussion.

Whilst I agree that the pass itself is a good idea, and older people who use it have payed into the system all their lives so do deserve it to keep them mobile, the fact that bus companies are so unfairly reimbursed for its use has a far more serious negative effect. Ordinary fare paying passengers have to pay increased fares as companies try and cover the costs, services that would pay in the past that carried mostly paying OAP passengers are now withdrawn because the same passengers used their ENCTS cards and the bus company massively loses out.

I don't think the ENCTS scheme can carry on the way it is for too much longer, routes getting cut, councils cutting subsidies and bus companies going bust with routes not being replaced. And once passengers find alternatives after they've been priced off the bus it's difficult to get them back.

Something has to give somewhere, and it'll probably get a lot worse before it gets better.

TheGrandWazoo · 14 May 2019

RustySpoons said:
Whilst I agree that the pass itself is a good idea, and older people who use it have payed into the system all their lives so do deserve it

This is the fundamental problem. No one paid into a system for a bus pass. Even if you look at the wider welfare/health system, there was always a point where people took out who never contributed.

Essentially, those who work pay for those who don’t. That is how it works

RustySpoons · 14 May 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
This is the fundamental problem. No one paid into a system for a bus pass. Even if you look at the wider welfare/health system, there was always a point where people took out who never contributed.

Essentially, those who work pay for those who don’t. That is how it works

Very good point. Never thought of it like that before.

charley_17/7 · 14 May 2019

What about revenue raised from parking? Manchester City Council/TfGM fund Metroshuttle from parking revenue, and Brighton & Hove City Council haven't made cuts like most other areas. Rotten councils/Boroughs spring to mind, pandering to motorists wanting free/cheap parking.

Tetchytyke · 15 May 2019

RustySpoons said:
Very good point. Never thought of it like that before.

Especially as ENCTS is only ten years old, a lot of passholders were already retired when it came into existence!

As for the OP, local authorities would be the ones arguing it's "primarily for tourism". ENCTS is valid on the new Stagecoach Seasider open-top bus service between Whitley Bay and North Shields and you can't get more touristy than that!

Tetchytyke · 15 May 2019

charley_17/7 said:
What about revenue raised from parking? Manchester City Council/TfGM fund Metroshuttle from parking revenue

The developers of Spinningfields pay most of it.

charley_17/7 said:
Rotten councils/Boroughs spring to mind, pandering to motorists wanting free/cheap parking.

If parking is cheap then revenue is low. And if revenue's low then there's no subsidy for buses. So that's your answer to

charley_17/7 said:
What about revenue raised from parking?

Busaholic · 15 May 2019

Arctic Troll said:
The developers of Spinningfields pay most of it.

If parking is cheap then revenue is low. And if revenue's low then there's no subsidy for buses. So that's your answer to

Money from car parking going to subsidise bus services is akin to money from membership of the EU going into the NHS - blink and you miss it.

ivanhoe · 15 May 2019

Martin2012 said:
Does anyone know what the situation is here in Bristol regarding the use of passes on the special services to Ashton Gate Stadium?

Am pretty sure the ABUS ones do accept them but can't remember about the First ones.

All I can say is that they are accepted on the special Stagecoach buses from City Centre to Anfield/Goodson Park.

Tetchytyke · 16 May 2019

Busaholic said:
Money from car parking going to subsidise bus services is akin to money from membership of the EU going into the NHS - blink and you miss it.

Car parking profit is ringfenced for transport. But only where the car park is run by the local authority and not a private operator. In most big cities the car parks are now mostly privately operated; you don't see many council car parks in Leeds or Manchester. The situation here in Newcastle where most of the big multi storey car parks are still council-run is rare.

In Manchester I think NCP chip some money in as well as the owners of Spinningfields, but only because it suits them to. It's not TfGM money being spent.

AlastairFraser · 17 May 2019

PeterC said:
I did wonder about that when HS2 was first announced.

Wirewiper said:
Reading Buses operates a number of Football Special routes direct to Madejski Stadium for Reading FC home fixtures.

These are not free to ENCTS holders, except for journeys starting in the Borough of Wokingham* as that local authority is still willing to reimburse those journeys. However there is a £1 single/£2 return special fare for ENCTS pass holders that is subsidised by Reading FC.

* a passholder travelling from Borough of Wokingham would get a free journey to the Stadium and pay £1 single on the return journey.

That doesn't actually seem too because people living in East Reading or even people who end up in the Town Centre could walk out to Thames Valley Park/somewhere close by and catch the Woodley/Twyford football bus. I wonder whether this applies to the Shinfield Park shuttle as well because I think AMEC Foster Wheeler is in the Borough of Wokingham.

Summer time and the ENCTS bus pass

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