rogercov
Member
It's been reported on another thread that 3 x 150 moved to Newton Heath on 29th April on this working:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97205/2019/04/29/advanced
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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail
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http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97205/2019/04/29/advanced
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Vivarail have just announced their hydrogen version. It will be interesting to see how this one fares.
http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-and-...ship-to-bring-emission-free-trains-to-the-uk/
http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-and-...ship-to-bring-emission-free-trains-to-the-uk/
Metal_gee_man
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Cynical me & probably others will suggest that the livery of the Hydrogen train looks like a certain Arriva owned franchise that runs trains in and around Yorkshire, Cheshire & Lancashire and beyond
Ted172
Member
One of the images from the announcement from January 31st file name is "1187-Class-230-Northern-Hydrogen-x4-car-Final-15.01.19-300x195.png".
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Bantamzen
Established Member
Funnily enough they did similar when the project started back in 2014 before the new franchise was awarded. And look how well that went....
Elecman
Established Member
Northern as in the Windermere branch I wonder?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Have Northern not got enough new trains on order?
Bletchleyite
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Metal_gee_man
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Let's face it if the trains are successful with LNWR and TFW, I can't see any reason why a tried and tested hydrogen bus engine can't simply replace a 3.2ltr Ford Diesel under the carriage floor, it'll require a specific route due to installation of Hydrogen tanks at a specific depot, and if that needs to be a rural line like Windermere then so be it, we all know speced right these train have a bright future beyond dirty diesel and just batteries
DanNCL
Established Member
The destination display in the mock up image has "Tees Valley" on it. The Tees Valley line has been mooted as a line for hydrogen trains to be trialed on before, so whilst I don't want to read too much in to this, it's possibly an indicator that hydrogen powered 230s could be planned for the Tees Valley line.
Bantamzen
Established Member
No, however I seriously doubt that if they were to order any for the lifetime of their franchise they would order a concept train that won't even go into testing until at least next year. Not when they have a supplier of trains currently rolling off the production line. However it is amazing how a single render of a concept can start the theories.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
230005 was in service last night after 230004 suffered an engine failure.
The good news is the availability of a spare meant the delay was 30 minutes not a complete service closure and replacement with a bus.
The good news is the availability of a spare meant the delay was 30 minutes not a complete service closure and replacement with a bus.
43096
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The same issue as the Desiros have, at least on the 450s. Just means longer dwell times and an inability to meet timings.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, actually much worse. On Desiros the button will work as soon as the release bleeps start. On 230s it's a good 5 seconds in, so even slower than the already slow Desiro (plus further delay from people who think it doesn't do anything and then wait for something to happen).
It needs fixing. Surely it must be a software fix.
43096
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No, the button on the 450s only activated after the beeps. I think Siemens may have been working on a fix but haven’t used a 450 for a while.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Sorry, to correct myself...on Desiros (all are the same) it lights up maybe half a second into the beeps - though the half second is noticeable it isn't that significant. On the 230s it takes a good five seconds - almost the end of the beeps.
delticdave
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I'd like to know just how "hydrogen bus engines" work.........
AFAIK, when hydrogen is used for traction purposes it's converted to electricity & water vapour in a fuel-cell stack.
Said electricity is used to drive the electric traction motors &/or charge the on-board energy recapturing batteries.
The real cost of obtaining hydrogen as a fuel is quite high, using large quantities of electricity to distill it from hydrocarbon fuels, (diesel, petrol, gas, etc) & even if solar & wind power to generate the required electricity it's much more expensive than using diesel & not environmentally friendly at all.
The current experimental trains in Germany are using hydrogen supplied (otherwise wasted) as a by-product from local chemical industries.
As for the Ford engines, they are probably lighter, cleaner & more efficient than any other available 200ps diesels, & well suited to power a light-weight 230 dmu.
supervc-10
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You can burn hydrogen in an internal combustion engine just fine- it's just not the most effective way of doing things. BMW had some prototype 7-Series cars running on hydrogen a while back.
But the 230s are designed to have a modular system- just replace the diesel engine rafts with one which have a hydrogen tank and a fuel cell and that's it! At least, that's the theory
But the 230s are designed to have a modular system- just replace the diesel engine rafts with one which have a hydrogen tank and a fuel cell and that's it! At least, that's the theory
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Where in Britain would be the most likely sources of supplies of that type that would be commercially viable in the quantity requirements?
gazthomas
Established Member
Teeside, I wonder?
Harpers Tate
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That depends entirely on what is used to generate the power to distil the Hydrogen. And that is a big part of the point. A Hydrogen fuel-cell power source doesn't care how its fuel was produced. It becomes solely a matter of infrastucture to affect how clean the production is; whereas fossil-fuelled engines have pretty much no meaningful alternative sources for their input. Obviously, hydrogen is clean at the point of use; the only output is water. To make it entirely "clean" is as easy(!) as using exclusively windmills (say) to distil and store the gas. Which is exactly how my local Hydrogen car refuelling point works; there is zero environmental impact beyond the manufacture of the vehicle and the windmill (etc.) And, clearly, it doesn't require constant wind (although that is pretty much a given, just about all of the time); it can distil and store when the wind blows, and the storage facility can still deliver, even when it's calm.
Dstock7080
Established Member
230004 back in service today
DarloRich
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D365
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i knowMust be the benefit of the engine raft quick change process
I had a chance to look at several of these rafts last year, certainly have to give them credit for packing a full engine kit into that space.
of course this may be true but more likely to be smaller easy fix unless they have many spare reliable units and unless changing an engine is as easy and as simple as a an oil change then further problems can occuri know
in general adjusting a well running unit is far better than putting a new unit in as ts likely to have its own teething problems to sort out
you also get to know the strange charicteristics in a captive fleet and make allowances to get smooth running
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The whole point of the engine rafts is that they can be swapped out quickly and easily with a forklift. As a matter of interest, does anyone know how many spare rafts LNWR keep?
yes i fully understand that point but the point i am making is the replacement unit as an unknown entity may be perfect and fault free or introduce other problems which will involve a further learning process
we need to remember they are selling the system so will choose what they think are the best working power units or components so other units may not be there first choice
now none off this is critisisum in any form as i applaud there actions but often things are more complicated than we think
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Whatever they have done didnt work as the first run this morning has been cancelled.
Brissle Girl
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That might suggest neither set was available first thing?
At the risk of sounding like our Cheshire friend, it must be slightly disappointing to have engine problems so early on. Other teething problems in service I would expect, but would have hoped the engines would be reliable.
At the risk of sounding like our Cheshire friend, it must be slightly disappointing to have engine problems so early on. Other teething problems in service I would expect, but would have hoped the engines would be reliable.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
we don't know what the issue is. Personally, based on my experience, I am not concerned by the kind of issues we are seeing when introducing a new train.
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