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Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

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chorleyjeff

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Thanks for taking the trouble to provide information.
Seems from reading this thread that once North of Hellifield until near Carlisle there is little to get in the way of a steady trundle but there are constraints at both ends especially around Leeds and the Blackburn to WCML section.
As an aside it seems that the line carried more trains in my ( steam ) days possibly due to needing four goods trains rather than the one these days to get 1800 tons up the 1:100.
 
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70014IronDuke

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The former Up line to the S&C immediately south of Carlisle station was severed to become a long headshunt down the slope, leaving reversible working on the former Down line. This is the single line referred to and was commissioned with the new Carlisle powerbox in 1972/3.
...

Thanks for this, and also Dr Hoo.
If this single track is causing significant constraint on timetabling, the obvious question is: can it be reinstated? Or perhaps better put, can the cost of reinstating be justified?

Yes they do all run however like any freight train anywhere nothing is guaranteed but the majority of the time they do....

Condor7 - since you have your location as Penrith - can I ask: how aware is the general Penrither of the availability of the S&C to Leeds? That is to say, is the station at Langwathby used to any extent by said population as a railhead for heading in the Leeds/Bradford - or is it just the odd railway bod who would even think of going that way?
(Same question could be put to Alston population, I suppose, but my guess is that's a significantly smaller place.)
 
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Condor7

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Condor7 - since you have your location as Penrith - can I ask: how aware is the general Penrither of the availability of the S&C to Leeds? That is to say, is the station at Langwathby used to any extent by said population as a railhead for heading in the Leeds/Bradford - or is it just the odd railway bod who would even think of going that way?
(Same question could be put to Alston population, I suppose, but my guess is that's a significantly smaller place.)

As it so happens my wife and I are volunteers (along with one other) who look after Langwathby station which part of a partnership with The Friends Of The Settle & Carlisle Line and Northern for all the stations on the line.

As to what percentage of the Penrith population are aware of the S&C I would have no idea however I suspect it is quite high as I have never met anyone in the area who does not know about it. What I do know is that, apart from locals Langwathby is regularly used by people from Penrith as it is only about 5 miles away and takes about 10 minutes in a car and the parking is free.

Over the winter these numbers would be quite small and used mainly by those wanting to commute however once the weather starts to pick up it can be quite heavily used by those just wanting a day out. Settle and Skipton being two popular destinations as well as Leeds. Last month on one sunny midweek day while the schools were off I counted almost 30 passengers catching the 11.18am towards Leeds, which was only a two carriage train so dread to think how the loading were as it continued on its journey.

With regard to Alston then I would say much less usage, but it is about 15 miles away on a road over the Pennines that can get closed in the winter.

What does surprise me is the lack of a regular bus service between Langwathby and Penrith. There is just one bus on a Friday. For a couple of months in the summer there is also a once a week bus from Alston to Penrith but that is it.
 

quantinghome

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What does surprise me is the lack of a regular bus service between Langwathby and Penrith. There is just one bus on a Friday. For a couple of months in the summer there is also a once a week bus from Alston to Penrith but that is it.

It surprises me as well. Extending the Penrith-Keswick bus to Langwathby or possibly Appleby would give a decent public transport connection from West Yorkshire to Penrith and the North Lakes, particularly if through tickets were marketed.
 

mitchf

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I live in Alston and have never heard anyone mentioning Langwathby as a possibility for rail travel. I try to use the train for as much business travel as I can but have never managed to use Langwathby yet. Recent journeys have been from Penrith (Wolverhampton and Rochdale) and I regularly used to travel to Nottingham from Newcastle.

As a matter of interest I looked at rail travel to Leeds tomorrow from Newcastle, Penrith and Langwathby. The journey time from Penrith was too long whereas the times from Newcastle and Langwathby were very similar by the time you added travel time to the stations. Langwathby then had the advantage due to the shorter drive time, free car parking and a fare less than half that of from Newcastle. I just need a reason to travel to Leeds now.

From July to September, there is a bus from Newcastle - Alston - Penrith - Keswick which passes Langwathby but this only runs once each day
 

yorksrob

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It surprises me as well. Extending the Penrith-Keswick bus to Langwathby or possibly Appleby would give a decent public transport connection from West Yorkshire to Penrith and the North Lakes, particularly if through tickets were marketed.

There are some buses between Appleby and Penrith, however these don't run on Saturday unfortunately.
 

neilmc

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Actually there's at least one bus between Langwathby and Penrith every day from Tuesday till Saturday. However they're all village services operated by Fellrunner designed for villagers to shop in Penrith so depart at differing times on differing routes.
Plus the 563 from Appleby to Penrith, three times a day late morning/early afternoon. And the schooldays-only 506 which runs from Appleby via Penrith to Kendal at an unearthly hour and returns in the evening. However, none of these provide anything remotely resembling a useful service to allow people to use Appleby or Langwathby as a railhead to the S&C with a bus connection. Penrith is a reasonable railhead from the West for some bus services (Keswick/Patterdale) but east or south from Penrith is a public transport virtual desert.

So for a Penrither, the S&C is only really accessible by driving, or going north to Carlisle first. Not ideal but that's Cumbria for you.
 

Condor7

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I was at Langwathby station again yesterday (Friday) morning and again the 11.18am had 21 passengers getting on. I didn’t obviously talk to them all but there was a least one party of six that came from Penrith by taxi.

So as not to highjack this thread I have started a new one on Speculative Ideas regarding a direct Penrith to Leeds service via Carnforth.
 
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70014IronDuke

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I was at Langwathby station again yesterday (Friday) morning and again the 11.18am had 21 passengers getting on. I didn’t obviously talk to them all but there was a least one party of six that came from Penrith by taxi.... .

Last figures for annual usage at Langwathby are 18,166 - or almost exactly 50 a day. In view of this, the 21 boarding just one train yesterday, and the 30 you quote up thread - are impressive figures, since I'd assume the most important trains at Langwathby are the early morning commuter into Carlisle and the 16.xx and 18.xx returns. But maybe that's not correct.

Of course, the 18,166 was the first year of full services after the track problems at Eden Brow, so one might assume that numbers should recover to somewhere around the 22-24,000 using the station pre that interruption. Certainly the numbers you've seen using the station would indicate at least that, but probably more for the April 2019 - 2020 year.
 

Condor7

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We only started volunteering last summer and as you might expect we are only at the station on an ad-hoc basis. Over the winter just to tidy up and check all is well. Now we are moving into warmer weather and the garden and grass are growing our visits are becoming more regular. So my observations are only casual and indeed I have observed other times when passenger numbers were just a handful, but as I was asked earlier in this thread I thought it worth mentioning. I will keep an eye on things and report back if needed.
 

Gathursty

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Quick question: For certain journeys, are Langwthby/Penrith an interchangeable origin/destination?
 

lyndhurst25

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Quick question: For certain journeys, are Langwthby/Penrith an interchangeable origin/destination?

Not as far as I'm aware. That would be far too sensible for our not joined-up railway! And what do you think the chances of arranging it would be with Northern running the services on one line and Virgin West Coast & TransPennine Express on the other? They'd just be arguing over who gets what share of the money until the end of time.

On the S&C line Settle/Giggleswick are certainly interchangable. There are supposed to be similar arrangements for the station pairs Horton/Clapham and Ribblehead/Bentham but I've never seen it advertised anywhere and the fares on longer match. I think that you are supposed to buy a ticket to the more expensive destination. Not sure if you can excess up if you've bought to the cheaper destination. Are guards even aware of the arrangement?
 

70014IronDuke

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Not sure if this has been mentioned previously, but one retrograde step in the new timetable appears to be the loss of an up and down SuO through train from Nottingham in the afternoon and return to Sheffield (last thing). I believe these were only introduced with the Dec 2018 TT. Anyone know the reason for their withdrawal? (I think trains still run to the same schedules on the S&C, just not beyond Leeds.)

We only started volunteering last summer and as you might expect we are only at the station on an ad-hoc basis. Over the winter just to tidy up and check all is well. Now we are moving into warmer weather and the garden and grass are growing our visits are becoming more regular. So my observations are only casual and indeed I have observed other times when passenger numbers were just a handful, but as I was asked earlier in this thread I thought it worth mentioning. I will keep an eye on things and report back if needed.

I think Langwathby, while never gaining the same importance as Appleby, and certainly not Settle, could still be a significant traffic generator on the S&C (by the standards of the line) with, perhaps an annual 30,000 or so potential due to the catchment area if properly promoted.

I'd always assumed the bulk of passengers would be commuters and day trippers to Carlisle, but your observations of the 11.18 to Leeds indicate otherwise. With the extra services introduced last year, it wil be interesting to see how the current passenger numbers work out when released in 2020.
 
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yorksrob

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Took the 10:49 from Leeds on Friday. The service was three carriages long and decently busy. Two carriages wouldn't have been enough to be comfortable - and this was on a Friday, before the high summer season and after any of the winter offers had ended.
 

Condor7

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Not sure if this has been mentioned previously, but one retrograde step in the new timetable appears to be the loss of an up and down SuO through train from Nottingham in the afternoon and return to Sheffield (last thing). I believe these were only introduced with the Dec 2018 TT. Anyone know the reason for their withdrawal? (I think trains still run to the same schedules on the S&C, just not beyond Leeds.)



I think Langwathby, while never gaining the same importance as Appleby, and certainly not Settle, could still be a significant traffic generator on the S&C (by the standards of the line) with, perhaps an annual 30,000 or so potential due to the catchment area if properly promoted.

As far as I can see the SuO train from and to Nottingham is still in the new timetable which does of course go via Sheffield but now no train terminating there. Also there is now a train from and to Blackpool North, the latter being the “last thing” you referred to.

With regard to your comment regarding the lack of promotion of Langwathby, I totally agree. A joint effort from Northern with Eden Council to promote the station and improve the bus service would I feel produce much increased usage. The problem at the moment is the rolling stock being mainly just two carriages. Much more increase in passengers at Langwathby on certain trains especially during the summer would only result in over crowding. That being said the long awaiting new units hopefully won’t be much longer.
 

Barnsley

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The out and back afternoon and evening return is booked to be the same unit, just with a change of headcode, which can lead to it being swapped at Leeds which is what happened when I travelled on it yesterday, it’s booked to arrive in Platform 10a, we were routed into 15 then had to go over to 17a to continue
 
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I believe most of our services on the S&C are now booked to be 4 coaches. Certainly the ones that used to be 3 are now a 4.
 

Condor7

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The out and back afternoon and evening return is booked to be the same unit, just with a change of headcode, which can lead to it being swapped at Leeds which is what happened when I travelled on it yesterday, it’s booked to arrive in Platform 10a, we were routed into 15 then had to go over to 17a to continue

While I don’t doubt you, I would be interested to know if that is the norm?
If it is, that flys in the face of all logic. That would mean that every train on the network could be shown as a through service in the timetable but in reality was not!
 

70014IronDuke

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As far as I can see the SuO train from and to Nottingham is still in the new timetable which does of course go via Sheffield but now no train terminating there.

There is still one SuO Notingham - Carlisle and return, but in the winter TT there was an aditional afternoon Nottingham - Carlisle and Carlisle - Sheffield.

Also there is now a train from and to Blackpool North, the latter being the “last thing” you referred to.

No, nothing very last thing (for me) about the Blackpool. The one I was referring to was something like the current 19.12 ex-Carlisle, which went through to Sheffield arrived v late in the evening.

With regard to your comment regarding the lack of promotion of Langwathby, I totally agree. A joint effort from Northern with Eden Council to promote the station and improve the bus service would I feel produce much increased usage. The problem at the moment is the rolling stock being mainly just two carriages. Much more increase in passengers at Langwathby on certain trains especially during the summer would only result in over crowding. That being said the long awaiting new units hopefully won’t be much longer.

I'll be interested in your observations of traffic this summer.
 
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1619 Carlisle-Leeds 2H95 was deffo 2 car 158 yesterday
I never said they were all a 4 car, I only said most, which to be fair is wrong. In fact, the 1619 ex Carlisle (1756 ex Settle) is my train home most days now!

For reference the booked 4 car services are:
Northbound: 1M53, 2H86, 2H94, 2H96
Southbound: 2H81, 1E23, 2H93, 2H99

The rest are still a two car unit.
 

Ken H

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I never said they were all a 4 car, I only said most, which to be fair is wrong. In fact, the 1619 ex Carlisle (1756 ex Settle) is my train home most days now!

For reference the booked 4 car services are:
Northbound: 1M53, 2H86, 2H94, 2H96
Southbound: 2H81, 1E23, 2H93, 2H99

The rest are still a two car unit.
Here is 2H93 yesterday at Ribblehead. about 30 waiting on the platform.View media item 3414. 4 coaches, as you say.

Note the installation on the down line between the CWR and the points for the sidings.
 

70014IronDuke

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Here is 2H93 yesterday at Ribblehead. about 30 waiting on the platform.View media item 3414. ....

It was a Saturday, so I suppose a 'peak' time for travel at Ribblehead. Nonetheless, the average passenger numbers per day at the station is 59. So getting 30 onto one train is a very good number, and possibly an indication of growth in passengers? Of course, a mid-week day in winter, I dare say quite a number of trains may get no passengers joining or alighting whatsoever.
 

quantinghome

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We caught a 2 car 158 from Shipley to Horton last Saturday. Full and standing from Skipton, then even more got on at Settle. Thankfully it was a 4 car on the return. Clearly spring and summer Saturdays will attract a number of day trippers to the Dales, but I was surprised to see how busy it was.

Returning to a previous discussion, if Holyhead-Cardiff and Inverness-Glasgow are considered worth running, why not a direct Leeds-Glasgow service via Carlisle?
 

yorksrob

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There does seem to be a very large gap in departures from Leeds between the 10:49 and the next one which is 13+. They could probably do with sorting that out.
 

ChrisC

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There does seem to be a very large gap in departures from Leeds between the 10:49 and the next one which is 13+. They could probably do with sorting that out.

It’s even worse in the other direction with departures from Carlisle at 0824, 1049 and then 1340.
I’m planning on travelling up from Mansfield for a week in Dumfries later this month changing at Worksop, Leeds and Carlisle. It should be quite an easy journey, and despite the 60mph speed limit and large number of stops, the journey time is not that bad and it will be an enjoyable start and end to my holiday.difficult

The large gap means that I am not able to arrive in Dumfries as early as I should like on the outward journey and poor connections at Carlisle due to the large gaps could make the return journey a bit difficult. The large gaps do not always make using the line very convenient as part of longer journeys even if you try to do so.

Using my Senior Railcard my return fare from Mansfield to Dumfries is approx £72. I could get the price down to around £50 by splitting at a couple of places including Settle but that then restricts me to only travelling via the S&C and the prospect of a very long wait at Carlisle if I miss the connection. Yes, those large gaps must be putting some people off using the line.
 

BigCj34

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How would be best to timetable it? 1tp2h Glasgow to Leeds running semi-fast on the WCML and the S&C and then Carlisle to Leeds 1tp2h stoppers for the hours in between? Also what rolling stock would be best for it?
 

yorksrob

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It’s even worse in the other direction with departures from Carlisle at 0824, 1049 and then 1340.
I’m planning on travelling up from Mansfield for a week in Dumfries later this month changing at Worksop, Leeds and Carlisle. It should be quite an easy journey, and despite the 60mph speed limit and large number of stops, the journey time is not that bad and it will be an enjoyable start and end to my holiday.difficult

The large gap means that I am not able to arrive in Dumfries as early as I should like on the outward journey and poor connections at Carlisle due to the large gaps could make the return journey a bit difficult. The large gaps do not always make using the line very convenient as part of longer journeys even if you try to do so.

Using my Senior Railcard my return fare from Mansfield to Dumfries is approx £72. I could get the price down to around £50 by splitting at a couple of places including Settle but that then restricts me to only travelling via the S&C and the prospect of a very long wait at Carlisle if I miss the connection. Yes, those large gaps must be putting some people off using the line.

How would be best to timetable it? 1tp2h Glasgow to Leeds running semi-fast on the WCML and the S&C and then Carlisle to Leeds 1tp2h stoppers for the hours in between? Also what rolling stock would be best for it?

Really they need a train every two hours or so, throughout the day.
 

Ken H

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There does seem to be a very large gap in departures from Leeds between the 10:49 and the next one which is 13+. They could probably do with sorting that out.

What do people who do the leeds-carlisle and return actually do in carlisle. OK it has a nice catherdral, and some nice shops that are the same as the leeds ones. But if you miss one you can have a long wait sat in Costa drinking too much coffee.

(Last time we went to carlisle, we went up, and got the same train back. enough time for a coffee. we didnt wnt to go shopping and have 'done' Carlisle before.

S&C need regular interval services, and some of the lesser stations being made request stops. And enough carriages in the summer.
An express leaving leeds about 10, and leaving Carlisle mid afternoon made of 2*37 with 4 mk3's on summer Saturdays and bank holiday Mondays would fill well I reckon. Stop Appleby, Settle and Skipton. Have a cab camera people could link to with some wifi. - no need for internet, just a local network.
 
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