158820
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Don't know any details only what that railway journalist said. He also added Northern managers are fed up of them and arent expecting them in service until December time.
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
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Bertie the bus
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As the same person claimed it is only a 2 or 3 hour job I'm sure they'll be heading back to Allerton tomorrow. Or maybe not...
Only if that is the reason for their trip to Doncaster. And if the mods hadn’t already been completed; they’d be out of gauge and either not running at all or on an X headcode. So I suspect Allerton have already exchanged (or removed) the components necessary to allow it to run. Which suggests it’s within their capabilities after all no?
I don’t know why they’ve gone to Wabtec Doncaster. There was no mention of it being required in the most recent progress briefing from Porterbrook to customers a few weeks ago. I’ll concur with the majority here that it isn’t a good sign; but I’ll wait to hear problems from the supplier rather than bow to internet speculation before outlining portents of doom. But there are weeds visible in the rose garden.
Quite. Time overruns equal cost overruns. I doubt any competent procurement exec at a TOC would put their company in a position where the extra costs land at their table. Moreover, late delivery means the procuring TOCs incur losses, which, again, I would fully expect to be mitigated in their contract with Porterbrook. GWR ordered their tri-mode 769s in April 2018 with units expected to be operational from Spring 2019. That is not going to happen, so GWR are or soon will be incurring unexpected costs.
Which leads me to the question of when will the additional (engineering and contractual) costs being incurred by Porterbrook resulting from the delay undermine the business case for converting these trains in the first place? And if that date is far in the future, perhaps the TOCS concerned may reflect that the agreed leasing cost was overegged and seek a renegotiation?
a_c_skinner
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Well yes, obviously. What it won't do is change any business case for further orders, assuming they do actually work properly and the additional works are not a huge, ongoing, per (further) unit cost. The basic idea remains sound - converting surplus units because bi-mode is a really good fit for a lot of users. If it can be done at a cost that is reasonable to produce a reliable train that works is the question and that seems very much up in the air.
It is easy to be wise after the events.
Railperf
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Has the Northern liveried 319 vat WABTEC and visible from Doncaster station been converted yet?
Greybeard33
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Indeed it is. However, perusal of the early pages of this long thread will reveal that some of us expressed scepticism from the outset, about the wisdom of attempting to repurpose 30 year old trains.
Trains approaching Wigan from the Bolton direction no more need to go into North Western station than those approaching from Atherton, the two routes come together at Crow Nest Junction then approaching Wigan there is unrestricted access to both Wallgate and North Western stations. The reason why the Alderley Edge (and Stalybridge) services terminate at North Western is precisely that, i.e. they are terminating, since a terminating train can run into either through platform 1 or bay platforms 2/3 and reverse out the way they came. At Wallgate they would have to not only continue to the reversing siding, they would also potentially get in the way of other trains in the process.
That's true, but the shunt at Wigan Wallgate was done twice per hour all day until last May without any issue. I rather suspect that running into North Western and being able to change ends there to depart back towards Manchester saves a unit diagram somewhere.
Indeed, but only a very small proportion of the current freight is electrically hauled.
I believe the match day services ceased in May 2018.
For quite a few years there was a c.1713 NSSu Deansgate to Stoke-on-Trent, 323 worked, which used to lurk in the siding opposite the ground to wait its time, this was the only other regular EMU working in the area. The equivalent service is now 1721 NSSu Piccadilly to Macclesfield.
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Huh? Lately I've only been seeing 66s. Class 70s are much less common.
a_c_skinner
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To establish my trainspotter credentials I'll be at Doncaster for about 20 minutes around 1030, so I'll look. (Dull blue anorak and matching small rucsac if any members are there).
It seemed a good plan if it was quick and could be done economically. The first hasn't proved the case and the second is moot. The 319s are basically respectable trains so it they can be kept working reliably and the structure is sound the age of the original vehicles isn't the end of the world. It does seem a shame that even if they work well some routes that seem obvious (trainspotter obvious, see above) for bimodes won't see them in use.
You're right, of course. I thought there had been an increase in the number of trains/hour running from Wigan to Manchester via Atherton, but I don't think there has. I think it was planned, but it hasn't happened.
Greybeard33
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Before May 2018 there were only 2tph via Atherton (3tph peaks only), one Vic - Southport and one Vic - Kirkby. But there were 3tph on the Weshoughton line, one Airport - Southport, two Vic - Wallgate. Now there are 3tph via Atherton, one Leeds - Southport, one Blackburn - Southport and one Vic - Kirkby, but only 2tph via Westhoughton, Stalybridge - Wigan NW and Alderley Edge - NW. An increase to 4tph via Atherton was planned from this month, the 4th service being Vic - Wallgate, but Network Rail has vetoed this because of performance concerns in Manchester. Instead the Kirkby service is being split into separate Vic - Wallgate and Wallgate - Kirkby services (I presume to enable the Vic - Wallgate diagrams to be strengthened to 4-car).
So Wallgate will be terminating 1tph from the east from 20th May with 2tph to North Western.
So Wallgate will be terminating 1tph from the east from 20th May with 2tph to North Western.
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Greybeard33
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My bad, post corrected to 1tph. So I guess at least one of the North Western terminators could be switched to Wallgate. I guess the use of North Western is at least partly to allow for future reinstatement of Lostock to Wigan and Vic to Stalybridge electrification - the wires would not extend to Wallgate.
Deepgreen
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Sadly, it seems to be harder and harder for the railway to be wise before the event these days, such is the apparent quality of management in so many areas.
I recently had correspondence with GWR about the North Downs line rolling stock, and their response (the third one, after two fatuous template answers which were irrelevant) included their intention to introduce 769s on the NDL, but, significantly, with no date being mentioned.
Class455
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There shouldn't be a Class 319 at Wabtec Doncaster. Think you may have seen a 150 instead
Railperf
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Definitely a 319...i may not be a 'spotter' but i do know the difference !!
a_c_skinner
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It was there on Saturday, yesterday. Didn't get the number, new Northern livery.
Edit: I'll try to get the number tomorrow if my rail rover takes me back to Doncaster. A thousand apologies.
Edit: I'll try to get the number tomorrow if my rail rover takes me back to Doncaster. A thousand apologies.
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43096
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I'd suggest you all read this thread, starting from post 3475. Not a 150, not a 319....
a_c_skinner
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Rats. I'd read the two Northern units had been moved to Doncaster up thread. Sorry.
Class455
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Apologies, turns out you're correct! Just seen a photo on Flickr of 37884 hauling 769424 and 769431 to Wabtec Doncaster last Thursday.
Wonder what's being done at Wabtec?
a_c_skinner
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Somewhere someone has suggested work on the bogies, perhaps weight related. And I was wrong, I edited my well meant untruth. My last day railroving took me though Doncaster yesterday. It was still there but no numbers from my train.
Going to North Western was surely to allow through electric working, as getting the wires under Wallgate bridge will be a challenge. Bolton - Southport passengers are advised to change at Hindley.
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I have to doubt that the prospect of electric working was the reason for 2 tph to run to North Western, since electrification of Bolton to Wigan isn't going to come anytime soon, and certainly not during the currency of the present timetable. I think it's more likely that the proposed additional hourly service over the Atherton line, meaning three prospective reversals per hour at Wigan, was the reason it was decided to divert two to North Western. However, having decided to divert 2 tph to North Western, the logical ones to divert were of course the ex-Bolton ones, since they're the ones which will inevitably run into North Western after the mooted electrification.
I've looked at the timetable and see that the connections at Hindley are generally quite good (until trains start running late, of course). I think 99% of Bolton to Kirkby passengers will do the sensible thing and choose to walk from North Western to Wallgate.
59CosG95
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http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91766/2019/05/15/advanced
57312 working 5Q78 with the second 769 for TfW in tow.
57312 working 5Q78 with the second 769 for TfW in tow.
Yes, if the 319s were 10 years old all this effort would be easier to justify.
As is these are 30 year old close to end of life units that aren’t getting any fresher with these delays.
a_c_skinner
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The question isn't how old they are but how much longer they will give good service without hugely expensive (and therefore not good value) maintainence.