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German Rail Giant Launches Second Legal Attack on Grayling

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Jorge Da Silva

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Apparently Arriva is launching a legal attack on Grayling.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...-giant-launches-second-legal-attack-grayling/

I currently cannot Access the full article
One of the world’s biggest transport companies is suing Chris Grayling over his governing of the railways, opening a second front against the embattled Transport Secretary over his controversial disqualification of train operators.

Arriva Rail, owned by German state-backed behemoth Deutsche Bahn, is taking legal action over the award of the East Midlands network to Dutch rival Abellio.

The move raises the prospect of a High Court battle between the British and German governments that could result in Mr Grayling himself hauled in front of judges to give evidence.

Arriva’s court filings reference the same “case type” to a separate claim brought by Stagecoach against Mr Grayling last week.

Stagecoach’s...

This will be fun.... :)
 
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Bletchleyite

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Grayling is terrible, but perhaps Arriva might like to exit its greenhouse before it starts throwing stones, given how badly mismanaged its TOCs generally are, particularly the execrable Northern and XC.

Very much third-rate British bus management, not DB Fernverkehr quality.
 

Robertj21a

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Bus management in the UK is quite ok in parts, certainly not third-rate. Northern would be difficult for anybody to manage effectively - much as XC (for different reasons).

I feel you are being unduly critical.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Bus management in the UK is quite ok in parts, certainly not third-rate. Northern would be difficult for anybody to manage effectively - much as XC (for different reasons).

I feel you are being unduly critical.

I agree with you. A lot of the time the problem is the DfT and I guess Arriva are not happy with being Disqualified from the bidding process of EM Franchise
 

LeeLivery

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Tbh, if DB bosses are pushing for Arriva to do this then they don't have much to lose as they're trying to sell Arriva anyway. They must think they can win this, especially considering the DfT's recent record.

Do agree though, Arriva certainly isn't up to DB's quality.
 

XCTurbostar

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The saga continues. Directly Operated Railways might be on the horizon.. again.
 

Bletchleyite

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Bus management in the UK is quite ok in parts, certainly not third-rate. Northern would be difficult for anybody to manage effectively - much as XC (for different reasons).

I feel you are being unduly critical.

I don't. My experience of Arriva (bus and rail) is that it is one of the worst of the major groups. Northern is a bit of a poisoned chalice, but they have made some extremely poor choices (I'm not referring to DOO here which was forced on them). XC have done similarly.
 

Glenn1969

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The franchise has already been awarded to Abellio. DOR is the last thing that will happen if pension liability is such a hot potato because then the Treasury would presumably have to plug the black hole. So not going to happen
 

Mag_seven

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Another nail in the coffin of this completely discredited privatised setup - time to call the whole thing off and bring back BR.
 

Glenn1969

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I don't think so. I remember the years of underinvestment and the fact that the Government deemed the North not fit for growth for 30 years.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think so. I remember the years of underinvestment and the fact that the Government deemed the North not fit for growth for 30 years.

Despite the previous SercoNedNorthern franchise actually being let as a "managed decline" franchise, it was far, far better managed than the present shower.
 

Glenn1969

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I think they have been let down by Network Rail and am giving them more time until I see the effect of the new stock and the Transpennine Route Upgrade on their performance
 

Bletchleyite

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I think they have been let down by Network Rail and am giving them more time until I see the effect of the new stock and the Transpennine Route Upgrade on their performance

Whereas I think they have been let down by stupidly complex diagramming and crew changes in really silly places, all of which are their fault.

I suspect LNR are, at the timetable change, about to be let down by exactly the same thing. I'm expecting a house of cards on day one.
 

Deepgreen

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Another nail in the coffin of this completely discredited privatised setup - time to call the whole thing off and bring back BR.
Sadly, BR will never return, but it's desperately needed now to have an integrated, modern national regime that has strategic capabilities and does away with the expensive pretence of competition and 'profit' in the railway.
Grayling has been an unmitigated disaster, and stands out as such even in this dire government line-up.
 

Killingworth

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Full Telegraph article is here;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...-legal-attack-grayling/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em

German rail giant launches second legal attack on Grayling
TELEMMGLPICT000001535772_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BquO5YvrBwMVBppuSiSYjzcI6p_uUf30CKSU-qZZb0KkQ.jpeg

Arriva are owned by Deutsche Bahn, the German state-backed operator Credit: Phil Noble/PA
11 May 2019 • 8:00pm


One of the world’s biggest transport companies is suing Chris Grayling over his governing of the railways, opening a second front against the embattled Transport Secretary over his controversial disqualification of train operators.

Arriva Rail, owned by German state-backed behemoth Deutsche Bahn, is taking legal action over the award of the East Midlands network to Dutch rival Abellio.

The move raises the prospect of a High Court battle between the British and German governments that could result in Mr Grayling himself hauled in front of judges to give evidence.

Arriva’s court filings reference the same “case type” to a separate claim brought by Stagecoach against Mr Grayling last week.

Stagecoach’s action marked a fresh escalation in hostilities between the FTSE 250 company and the Department for Transport in a row that has raged for more than a month.

TELEMMGLPICT000163701002_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqvQD-37N8w4bFqhyUjBPf0Wu6gTd6hbvsPhwH_sOLr-8.jpeg

Stagecoach was the majority owner of the Virgin Trains East Coast train line Credit: DANIEL LEAL-OLIVAS/AFP
Once one of the biggest train operators in Britain, Stagecoach was effectively kicked off the railways at the start of last month for submitting “non-compliant” bids, two of which were for its only remaining franchises.

Its threat of legal action, first revealed by The Sunday Telegraph, became a reality on Wednesday.

Stagecoach wants the Department for Transport decision to be overturned and is understood to also be seeking damages of up to £30m in lost bidding costs.

Arriva’s bid for East Midlands was also deemed “non-compliant” by the Department for Transport. But it has sought to keep a much lower profile than Stagecoach, which has become embroiled in a public war of words with Whitehall.

Industry sources said Deutsche Bahn is worried a public spat could harm its current plans to either sell or float Arriva.

The East Midlands franchise was awarded to Dutch state-backed operator Abellio on April 1, but the deal was delayed until last Thursday amid allegations of a flawed procurement process and an investigation over the leak of confidential details about Stagecoach’s bid.

Stagecoach, along with prospective partners Virgin Trains and French giant SNCF, was also excluded from bidding to run the lucrative West Coast network upon which High Speed 2 trains would operate.

TELEMMGLPICT000002459536_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqplGOf-dgG3z4gg9owgQTXPGkjMqXV6CT_ASrwFoxoSc.jpeg

Stagecoach prospered as the Government deregulated first the bus, then the train markets Credit: Graeme Hart/Perthshire Picture A/PA
Virgin founder Sir Richard Branson said he was left “devastated” by the decision. In addition, Stagecoach was banned from a tender to run the South Eastern franchise. Stagecoach’s legal action is understood to include a demand for a Judicial Review of the rail procurement process across all three tenders it has been ousted from.

The controversy is seen as the biggest in the rail industry since 2012, when ministers had to renege on a decision to award the West Coast to FirstGroup, costing the taxpayer £50m. Mr Grayling’s predecessor admitted the fault lay “only and squarely within the Department for Transport”.

In that scenario, however, the contract was not formally signed. Sources close to Abellio said that if the Government were to acquiesce to Stagecoach and Arriva’s demands and restart the tendering process, it could be in line for “massive” damages from the taxpayer for breach of contract.

TELEMMGLPICT000178061146_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqTh3H5BemKyhXFKdcxJGxV1FTNNabxLt8zdWE99ykJoY.jpeg

Abellio operates the Greater Anglia network Credit: Nick Ansell/ PA Wire
Earlier this year legal action was brought over the award of a £14m Brexit contingency contract to a ferry company that had no ferries. Eurotunnel was handed £33m to settle the case. A similar case with P&O Ferries is outstanding.

Arriva said: “We can confirm that we are seeking to obtain more information relating to how the bids for the East Midlands franchise were assessed.”

A Government spokesman said: “We do not comment on legal proceedings. However, we have total confidence in our franchise competition process and will robustly defend decisions that were taken fairly following a thorough and impartial evaluation process.”
 

Deepgreen

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Bus management in the UK is quite ok in parts, certainly not third-rate. Northern would be difficult for anybody to manage effectively - much as XC (for different reasons).

I feel you are being unduly critical.
It wasn't stated that ALL UK bus management is third-rate, but much of it these days certainly is. If certain TOCs are difficult to manage, then change the regime (ideally get rid of them all in favour of a national, integrated system), rather than throwing different people at the same failed structure.
 

Bevan Price

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I agree with you. A lot of the time the problem is the DfT and I guess Arriva are not happy with being Disqualified from the bidding process of EM Franchise

Is it just the DfT that is a problem, or the entire top civil service. Just consider how many c**k-ups there seem to have been in recent years.
Late & way over-budget military equipment (planes, ships, etc.)
Late & over-budget National IT system for NHS.
Purchase prices of Class 800s (as specified by DfT) compared with fairly similar 802s
Botched WCML franchise some years ago, etc., etc.

Now I imagine that DfT must contain at least a few people who have good ideas about railways, but unless there have been major changes in the management style of Civil Service-style organisation, I suspect they may be reluctant to criticise senior management in case that wrecked their career prospects. (In a similar way to Gerard Fiennes being "pushed out" of BR many years ago.)
 

jagardner1984

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Anyone interested in the “efficiencies” of this system of tendering and franchising should really really see Mark Thomas’ excellent thoughtful show on the NHS, currently touring. It exposes many of the same myths propagated in the name of “improving” the health service.

In reality, the real consequences have been a huge drain on resources, and little if any of the suggested benefits. Sound familiar ?
 

tbtc

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Another nail in the coffin of this completely discredited privatised setup - time to call the whole thing off and bring back BR.

I've got to admire your faith - if you can look at a situation summed up by "Government/Civil Servants can't manage one of the aspects of the railway that they control" and decide that the answer is to put the same Government/ Civil Servants in charge of *all* of the railway... I wish I had the kind of strong convictions that weren't troubled by inconvenient evidence
 

Japan0913

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To be fair, the Incredibly Expensive Procurement paid for its development - it was always going to be the case that adding a few more on of an existing design would be cheaper.
First Group purchased AT-300(Class80X) to operate "East Coast Trains" at the lowest price.
Is the AT-300(Class80X) still expensive?
 

samuelmorris

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The areas I've used Arriva buses I found them a significant step above First's offerings to be honest, I think it's probably a regional thing. Likewise Northern was always going to be iffy whoever got the contract. Not saying I'm a fan but I don't think they're the worst either. I wonder what's prompted them to start legal action over not winning the franchise - I don't believe they were disqualified out of hand like Stagecoach?
 

Bletchleyite

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Likewise Northern was always going to be iffy whoever got the contract.

Why? The previous Northern was nowhere near as "iffy".

Not saying I'm a fan but I don't think they're the worst either.

Genuine question - which TOC do you think is worse? I'm having trouble thinking of one - yes, even GTR, which had a bad phase due to the whole DafT driven DOO farce but is now working reasonably well again - they can even be bothered to run the WCML service most of the time these days.
 

ivanhoe

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I don't. My experience of Arriva (bus and rail) is that it is one of the worst of the major groups. Northern is a bit of a poisoned chalice, but they have made some extremely poor choices (I'm not referring to DOO here which was forced on them). XC have done similarly.
My experience of Arriva Bus operations in Leicestershire and Liverpool is quite positive. You have already agreed that Northern is a poisoned chalice but I don’t think XC is a good operation(2 carriage working on Brum to Stansted, too many times) . How much of this is Arriva’s fault, I’m unsure. The issue here has been rumbling for years. Both in Health, Transport and Education, there has been a tendency to take power away from Councils, Area Health, and bodies such as BR and place it in Ministries. The consequences of wasteful ‘reforms’ are all there to be seen and Arriva is one of many TOC’s that will always struggle in current set ups. Get rid of Grayling but the same Department will still have the same powers and make the same mistakes. Replace Arriva and there’ll be few noticeable improvements if you’re a punter on Leicester to Stansted.
 

Bletchleyite

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Poor rolling stock maintenance is entirely Arriva's fault. They may not be able to get more stock for XC, but the Voyagers and 170s are in an utterly terrible state. The one I used on Friday was filthy (I mean ground in muck, not litter) and had half the lighting diffusers missing (which with the new super-bright white LED tubes made things worse than a GWR HST with lighting on "full").

With regard to buses, while they do occasionally innovate quite well (e.g. being the first with national mobile ticketing) they generally pay no attention to detail at all, with dirty, dented buses being the norm across much of the country.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Whether Arriva do or don't run a decent train service is irrelevant to the legal action they are taking against the DfT, which is about government procurement policy.
Widening the action to two major transport groups is an escalation of the dispute.
I imagine the purpose of the action is to cancel the disqualification on current bids (very important to Stagecoach) and to clarify the pensions liability once and for all.
All this knowing that the Williams review is going to change the structure of the railways anyway (another reason why arguing over current franchise performance is not relevant).
I can't work out if it is Arriva taking legal action against DfT, or DB proper.
If the latter, we are in for some interesting times.
 

lord rathmore

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I've got to admire your faith - if you can look at a situation summed up by "Government/Civil Servants can't manage one of the aspects of the railway that they control" and decide that the answer is to put the same Government/ Civil Servants in charge of *all* of the railway... I wish I had the kind of strong convictions that weren't troubled by inconvenient evidence
You are entirely correct. Those calling for renationalisation don't know what it would mean and can't remember the dismal decline in the 70s, the poor service, the lovely national strikes.
 

Robertj21a

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I don't. My experience of Arriva (bus and rail) is that it is one of the worst of the major groups. Northern is a bit of a poisoned chalice, but they have made some extremely poor choices (I'm not referring to DOO here which was forced on them). XC have done similarly.

Arriva bus actually seems quite good in Yorkshire, Merseyside and the East Midlands - not so good in your area and the old 'London Country' areas. I have no problem with their Chiltern trains, or the Overground operations.
We don't really have the luxury of top quality bus/train operators in the UK. On a national scale, only Stagecoach gets close (imho) with GoAhead/Arriva/Abellio/First all some way behind.
 

43096

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Another nail in the coffin of this completely discredited privatised setup - time to call the whole thing off and bring back BR.
I do love the twisted logic that says the solution to the rail industry problems of an inept controlling government body and nationalised infrastructure operator is to nationalise the whole lot.
 
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