Struner
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Ignorance is bliss?
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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I'm fairly sure newsthump know exactly how ironic they're being
Esker-pades
Established Member
Paul Golding (leader of Britain First) said virtually the same thing. The satirical stuff has already happened for real.
317 forever
Established Member
Brexit is a rare example of an issue that splits both the main parties. Most issues roughly divide on left - right lines. However, softer left and softer right voters tend to favour Remain, while harder left and harder right voters tend to favour Leave.
If as current leaders Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn merely looked out for their views and the views of sufficient MPs, they could probably agree a deal. It's just that to a greater or lesser extent both leaders worry about splitting the parties, while Jeremy is not so secretly hankering after an early General Election.
317 forever
Established Member
squizzler
Established Member
Thing that puzzles me:
The last thing you think anyone in the position of supporting Mr Farage would do is voting for them in the forthcoming European Elections. This is because we are always told it is impossible for anybody to serve in the European Parliament and not go native. There is such an obvious conflict of interest between claiming you want to do away with an organisation and accepting paid work with them. Once onboard it makes more sense to stay in Europe as long as possible.
It would serve these people better to vote elsewhere. A poor EU election outcome would keep their 'principles', as they see them, intact and ready for the inevitable snap general election.
The last thing you think anyone in the position of supporting Mr Farage would do is voting for them in the forthcoming European Elections. This is because we are always told it is impossible for anybody to serve in the European Parliament and not go native. There is such an obvious conflict of interest between claiming you want to do away with an organisation and accepting paid work with them. Once onboard it makes more sense to stay in Europe as long as possible.
It would serve these people better to vote elsewhere. A poor EU election outcome would keep their 'principles', as they see them, intact and ready for the inevitable snap general election.
Indeed.
Brexit is doomed to fail because of the culture, psychology and vested interests of those who promote it. Possibly for other reasons too, but those are for another post.
Whatever happens in terms of the UK leaving the EU, Farage, UKIP, much of the Conservative Party and the rest of the brexit establishment will claim it was a "betrayal", and not what leave voters voted for. They are trapped in a logical paradox. If brexit happens, and these people were satisfied with how it was done, they will be out of a job. Not only that, but people will blame them for any bad results of brexit, and the broken promises of the referendum. They will have to take responsibility. Therefore, they *have to* disown the brexit that actually happens, and claim they wanted something different - and by their nature, they will say it should have been even more extreme. So the brexiters cannot accept the compromises necessary to do things in the real world.
Even if brexit happens, the brexiters will never be able to say it was a success. This is why they have been voting against May's withdrawal agreement, which is effectively voting against leaving the EU. That is why they have formed the brexit party. It's not in their interests that brexit actually happens. They have to be able to deny responsibility. Winning the referendum was a terrible result for them.
The path the UK now follows will be hated and disowned by leavers and remainers alike.
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Giugiaro
Member
Well, since Farage abandoned UKIP in favour of the Brexit Party and a new EU parliamentary group, he is technically running for President of the EU Commission against Nicolas Bay from the French National Rally.
I understand that if Nicolas Bay were to win a majority in the Parliament and get elected as President of the EU Commission that would basically mean the dissolution of the EU, but Farage as President of the EU Commission?
I understand that if Nicolas Bay were to win a majority in the Parliament and get elected as President of the EU Commission that would basically mean the dissolution of the EU, but Farage as President of the EU Commission?
Your understanding is wrong. The European Parliament and the European Commission are separate institutions. The president of the European Commission is chosen by the governments of the member states. They are not elected by the Parliament.
No-one standing in the European Parliamentary elections is in the running to be president of the European Commission.
JonathanP
Member
Since the Lisbon Treaty the European Parliament has a veto over the European Commission president appointment.
In addition, in the last electoral cycle and most likely in this one too, the European Commission President was chosen through the "Spitzenkandidat" process, whereby each grouping the European Parliament proposes a candidate(as anme said, not an MEP candidate, but someone else) in advance(this candidate then forms part of their election campaign), and the European Council then simply proposes back to the Parliament the chosen candidate of the largest grouping after the elections. So I would say there is quite a strong link between the two. It's arguably quite similar to our system, somewhat ironically given how much criticism the EU gets for being "undemocratic" in comparison to Westminster. When you vote in the EU elections, you are indirectly voting for the corresponding Spitzenkandidat for EU commission president, just as a vote in a General election is an indirect vote for the leader of the party to become Prime Minister.
In addition, in the last electoral cycle and most likely in this one too, the European Commission President was chosen through the "Spitzenkandidat" process, whereby each grouping the European Parliament proposes a candidate(as anme said, not an MEP candidate, but someone else) in advance(this candidate then forms part of their election campaign), and the European Council then simply proposes back to the Parliament the chosen candidate of the largest grouping after the elections. So I would say there is quite a strong link between the two. It's arguably quite similar to our system, somewhat ironically given how much criticism the EU gets for being "undemocratic" in comparison to Westminster. When you vote in the EU elections, you are indirectly voting for the corresponding Spitzenkandidat for EU commission president, just as a vote in a General election is an indirect vote for the leader of the party to become Prime Minister.
So in summary Farage might aim for leadership of whatever group the Brexit Party choose to caucus with, quite possibly up against Nicholas Bay, who I have never heard of. Whichever of those won would then go forward to be ignored as they wouldn't be the largest group and certainly couldn't command a majority of votes in the European Parliament.
It's broadly like saying that now Chukka Umana has left the Labour party he will be up for prime minister against Heidi Allen.
A BREXIT party election leaflet came through my door this morning - went straight into the shredder.
Thanks for the information!
Struner
Member
I think you will find that most, if not all, Spitzenkandidaten are standing in these elections.
ashkeba
Established Member
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The UK has an interesting problem in these elections that the "lead candidate" (to use the English term - why use German there?) most likely to become Commission President is the European Peoples Party's (again) and the UK has no EPP candidates since Cameron flounced the Conservatives out of the centre-right EPP into the right-right European Conservatives and Reformists a while before 2010. Cameron basically turned the UK into an irrelevance for selection of the Commission President for the forseeable future, then reaped what he sowed.
The contest for "worst UK prime minister ever" certainly got some serious new candidates in the last few years.
@Mag_seven: i was interesed in the points of the Brexit Party. That as a nation the UK can do it alone and that they will find other partners.
Giugiaro
Member
All details of the EU Parliament groups, Commission Candidates and UK representations are here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/eu-elections-2019.181916/#post-3999329
ashkeba
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Given that Brexit is implemented (or not) by the UK Parliament, I do wonder what they're hoping to achieve by getting elected to an EU Parliament which cannot make Brexit happen and they won't have enough MEPs to even influence the EU's behaviour much. I guess they're after pay and pensions.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Trying to get the most MEPs to show that what people want most is Brexit. That has a certain weight to it despite the fact that remain-supporting parties are likely to get similar numbers of votes* and that when people are actually asked the question in opinion polls the majority is now for remain. Unfortunately, while proportional to a degree, the system used marks down parties below about 30% so three remain parties at between about 8% and 12% each will get far fewer MEPs than one Brexit party at above 30%.
*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48227459
I find it hard to believe that 50% of Tory voters are remainers, but that seems to be what the polls are saying.
That's not actually the brexit party's position. They are not just promoting brexit. They are promoting the UK leaving the EU *without a withdrawal agreement*, or a "no deal brexit" as it's usually called.
I wonder where this is going.
They sound amazing. Let's leave all of our trading and political agreements with nothing else in place. What could possibly go wrong?
It was the will of an indeterminate proportion of the narrow majority of people who voted three years ago on a different question. Asking the actual relevant question now would be a vicious betrayal of democracy, and that is what really matters, not your fancy "outcomes". If you don't understand that by now you are probably one of those there fancy experts. And French.
squizzler
Established Member
Like UKIP before them they apparently lack the self control - or plain common sense - to turn down the shilling of an organisation they despise.
Like somebody who insists everybody else becomes vegan but eats as much meat as they can ‘because everyone else is doing it’.
They will be cursed once again to the poetic justice of domestic irrelevance. The definition of madness: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
This is the logical development of Michael Gove's hatred of experts. Once you stop bothering to find out the facts, you are not constrained by reality. Once you convince people to just go with whatever is in their heads, they are very easy to manipulate, especially if you can tap into their base prejudices and fears. It's the perfect situation for opportunists like Johnson and Farage, who are probably smart enough to know what they are doing. It's also temporarily good for low IQ establishment figures like Mogg and Davies, who genuinely believe the lies.
Of course, sooner or later reality will prevail. It always does. These people are going to lose. But in the mean time, they will do a lot of damage.
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SteveP29
Member
It'd probably be used to help line our cat litter box
I'm currently having a twitter spat with a Brexit Party supporter, who would rather try to make fun of my twitter handle than answer the two questions I've asked in response to him/ her saying Nigel 'values democracy, a new beginning & will fight for it now', which were:
Fight for what &
What is the Brexit Party going to actually do?
I'm being met with bluster, abuse and deflection, which sounds very much like them, all fart and no s**t
Or perhaps a shart. They thought they could squeak out what they wanted but ended up with their kecks full of sh*t.
superkev
Established Member
I wonder what Farage and co have to say to the South Wales Honda workers as well as the Land Rover workers who will soon be on the dole.
Something like very sorry but it's worth it to get away from all those foreigners.
I don't particularly like the European Union with its bureaucracy and restrictive practices but just like our unions UNISON, ASLEF etc not being in is prob not a good idea.
K
Something like very sorry but it's worth it to get away from all those foreigners.
I don't particularly like the European Union with its bureaucracy and restrictive practices but just like our unions UNISON, ASLEF etc not being in is prob not a good idea.
K
Which restrictive practices don't you like?
Isn't it strange how the BBC hide the British Steel story today, which threatens thousands of jobs, half way down its business section? The Daily Telegraph is the same. Front page news? Not if it's negative for Brexit.
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