London-York times before and after HS2

deltic08 · 6 May 2019

There has been, and is, disagreement in times between London and York. Years ago, I timed an HST non-stop to York in 97 minutes when the public timetable was 100 minutes and that was when there was recovery time added for Hitchin crossing, Newark crossing, Newark Trent Bridge and Doncaster crossings. A total of 5 1/2 minutes. I have yet to locate my log but it was either the 1600, 1700 or 1800 service from KX.

Going through a 2007 BR timetable that is the first to hand there are trains particularly the 1500 ex Kings Cross reaches York non-stop in 105 minutes with the 1400 taking 110 minutes with one stop at Doncaster.

Network Rail have proudly announced many times that the new Hitachi trains would shave 10 minutes off the journey time to York so even if I am wrong with my time of 100 minutes that would make it 90-95 minutes which would be the same as via HS2 which was my argument in the first place.

The usual people have jumped on the bandwagon braying for blood, saying it isn't possible as if it was a hanging offence. The difference between the times is just a few minutes, and not worth £50 billion in extending HS2 beyond Brum.

Will there be capacity on HS2 south of Brum for all the East Coast trains north of York, all West Yorkshire traffic, all South Yorkshire and East Midlands traffic, all West Coast traffic and West Midlands on just two tracks into London at 250mph at the frequency suggested? Very doubtful as the capacity at Euston is inadequate.

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Jorge Da Silva · 6 May 2019

deltic08 said:
There has been, and is, disagreement in times between London and York. Years ago, I timed an HST non-stop to York in 97 minutes when the public timetable was 100 minutes and that was when there was recovery time added for Hitchin crossing, Newark crossing, Newark Trent Bridge and Doncaster crossings. A total of 5 1/2 minutes. I have yet to locate my log but it was either the 1600, 1700 or 1800 service from KX.

Going through a 2007 BR timetable that is the first to hand there are trains particularly the 1500 ex Kings Cross reaches York non-stop in 105 minutes with the 1400 taking 110 minutes with one stop at Doncaster.

Network Rail have proudly announced many times that the new Hitachi trains would shave 10 minutes off the journey time to York so even if I am wrong with my time of 100 minutes that would make it 90-95 minutes which would be the same as via HS2 which was my argument in the first place.

The usual people have jumped on the bandwagon braying for blood, saying it isn't possible as if it was a hanging offence. The difference between the times is just a few minutes, and not worth £50 billion in extending HS2 beyond Brum.

Will there be capacity on HS2 south of Brum for all the East Coast trains north of York, all West Yorkshire traffic, all South Yorkshire and East Midlands traffic, all West Coast traffic and West Midlands on just two tracks into London at 250mph at the frequency suggested? Very doubtful as the capacity at Euston is inadequate.

HS2 is due to take 2x Newcastle Services per hour and 2x Leeds services per hour to London. As well as the same for Edinburgh. That’s it the rest will stay.

Gareth · 6 May 2019

Edinburgh's slated to go via the WCML is it not?

Ianno87 · 6 May 2019

Jorge Da Silva said:
HS2 is due to take 2x Newcastle Services per hour and 2x Leeds services per hour to London. As well as the same for Edinburgh. That’s it the rest will stay.

Edinburgh and Glasgow services will run as combined services via the WCML splitting/joining en-route, 'Saving' two paths into Euston as such (as opposed to a seperate 2tph to each)

Jorge Da Silva · 6 May 2019

Ianno87 said:
Edinburgh and Glasgow services will run as combined services via the WCML splitting/joining en-route, 'Saving' two paths into Euston as such (as opposed to a seperate 2tph to each)

Yeah I was aware of that. I was just making a point of saying that those where the only services that will be transferred from the ECML.

Class 170101 · 6 May 2019

Jorge Da Silva said:
HS2 is due to take 2x Newcastle Services per hour and 2x Leeds services per hour to London. As well as the same for Edinburgh. That’s it the rest will stay.

Surely the Edinburgh will just be an extension of the Newcastle when via the ECML rather than 6tph. The faster route will be via the WCML?

Ianno87 · 6 May 2019

Class 170101 said:
Surely the Edinburgh will just be an extension of the Newcastle when via the ECML rather than 6tph. The faster route will be via the WCML?

No, as above, the 2tph to Edinburgh will be portions off the 2tph Euston-WCML-Glasgow

Bald Rick · 6 May 2019

deltic08 said:
Network Rail have proudly announced many times that the new Hitachi trains would shave 10 minutes off the journey time to York

I’m not sure they have announced this.

The ECML Route Study suggests that by upgrading the ECML to 140mph, it would save up to 7 minutes between Kings Cross and York. This saving is a result of infrastructure upgrades, not the new trains (although the new trains would be needed to make best use of the higher speeds).

The study also notes that the cost would be ‘very high’. For which you can read ‘will not happen’.

I think it is likely that the new trains could save 5 minutes on a London - York service that makes 3+ stops en route, as the Azuma acceleration will help to the tune of about 30-60 seconds per stop. And there would be more if dwell times could be reduced through DCO. (But this isn’t a DCO thread). This doesn’t help for non-stop services, obviously.

yorkie · 6 May 2019

deltic08 said:
....Network Rail have proudly announced many times that the new Hitachi trains would shave 10 minutes off the journey time to York...

Do you have a link and quote please?

adamedwards · 7 May 2019

Also remember HS2 is about capacity. For example, removing 4 trains per hour to HS2 enables routes such as Leeds or Newcastle to Cambridge and Stansted. These will stop more on the ECML, so need more space. I could imagine Lincoln to London going hourly too.

Chris125 · 13 May 2019

deltic08 said:
Network Rail have proudly announced many times that the new Hitachi trains would shave 10 minutes off the journey time to York...

They have? Where?

BluePenguin · 13 May 2019

I surprised that as a result of HS2 time potential time saving can/will be made..

If the journey times that came about as a result of HS1 are anything to go by, I would not be surprised if London - York went from 1 hour 50 minutes to 2 hours 30 minutes or longer to make the most of the newly released "capacity". Calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, everywhere to Doncaster and beyond to York. Wouldn't be surprised if Finsbury Park and Welwn Garden City were added either lol

Railperf · 14 May 2019

The 800's will potentially offer faster journeys - at least a saving of apps 1 minute on sections where the trains can run in electric mode at 125mph. On sections with lower speed limits, the difference may only be an advantage of 30 seconds or so per station to station stop.
But all that depends on LNER submitting a draft timetable to Network Rail based on the faster running times, and network rail being able to approve that provided it can slot in all the other operators - regional stopping trains, freight, etc. Quite often the timings have to have extra minutes added in as pathing or performance allowances plus extended dwell times at some stations added in to regulate the fast services around the slower trains. LNER stopping services to Newark have extended dwell time at Peterborough - probably to allow the service to be allocated to slower Class 90's - which allows them to make up time - as they cannot meet the 28 minute schedule - and usually take 30 to 31 minutes. Also extended dwell time at stations such as Peterborough allows faster services to overtake while the stopper sits and awaits its path.

FQTV · 14 May 2019

I used to travel weekly or twice a week from the North East to King's Cross pre-Hatfield.

My Southbound service was timetabled then for 2h36m, and regularly arrived in London 2 minutes or so early. The same service is now timetabled for 2h57m, with no more stops, but 15 minutes of allowances (which, in practice are never and could never be made up in aggregate).

The majority of the allowances, and I suspect the slower runnings, are South of York, so even with current signalling and 125mph maximum line speeds, York to London, non-stop, was and could or should be a lot faster than it is now.

There are far more trains running on certain sections of the ECML these days, of course, but back then I suspect that there was also more variation in accelerative performance and top-speeds between the various stock and haulage operating, and I assume that there was more (coal) freight, too.

DarloRich · 14 May 2019

deltic08 said:
Network Rail have proudly announced many times that the new Hitachi trains would shave 10 minutes off the journey time to York so even if I am wrong with my time of 100 minutes that would make it 90-95 minutes which would be the same as via HS2 which was my argument in the first place.

are we sure about this? That seems like a very big number. Do we know what this is based on? Potentially achievable in conjunction with lots of infrastructure upgrades but not simply from a new train.

Railperf · 14 May 2019

DarloRich said:
are we sure about this? That seems like a very big number. Do we know what this is based on? Potentially achievable in conjunction with lots of infrastructure upgrades but not simply from a new train.

This claim must be reliant on ETCS and possible 140mph running. It was claimed some years ago that most sections of ECML 125mph track were almost certainly able to be upgraded to 140mph with the appropriate signalling in place.

Taunton · 15 May 2019

Ta-Ra about new "accelerations" that don't come up to past times is not unusual. All the expenditure on electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow (both trains and infrastructure) has ended up with trains slower than achieved with little Class 27s and semaphore signalling in 1971.

The Planner · 15 May 2019

Taunton said:
Ta-Ra about new "accelerations" that don't come up to past times is not unusual. All the expenditure on electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow (both trains and infrastructure) has ended up with trains slower than achieved with little Class 27s and semaphore signalling in 1971.

Exactly the same journeys and stopping patterns? What sort of times should we be achieving then? Semaphore signalling is irrelevant in this.

Esker-pades · 15 May 2019

Taunton said:
Ta-Ra about new "accelerations" that don't come up to past times is not unusual. All the expenditure on electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow (both trains and infrastructure) has ended up with trains slower than achieved with little Class 27s and semaphore signalling in 1971.

The railway is busier than it was in 1971.
More stations are stopped at than in 1971.

Railperf · 15 May 2019

Taunton said:
Ta-Ra about new "accelerations" that don't come up to past times is not unusual. All the expenditure on electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow (both trains and infrastructure) has ended up with trains slower than achieved with little Class 27s and semaphore signalling in 1971.

So there 'may' have been slightly faster journeys back in the 1970's but what about the frequency of trains? How long did you have to wait if you missed your train?

Back in 1970- journey times of 40 minutes, but an hours wait if you turn up a minute too late. Overall journey time 1 hr 40 mins.
Today...journey time 50 minutes ...maximum wait if you miss your train ..15 mins...total journey time ..65 mins.

No contest! The slower modern journey times win on frequency!

Taunton · 15 May 2019

Railperf said:
Back in 1970- journey times of 40 minutes, but an hours wait if you turn up a minute too late. Overall journey time 1 hr 40 mins.
Today...journey time 50 minutes ...maximum wait if you miss your train ..15 mins...total journey time ..65 mins.

They were in fact every 30 minutes on the push-pull which started in May 1971. Queen Street to Haymarket was actually 38.5 minutes on the nonstops (and occasionally even a bit less!).

ForTheLoveOf · 15 May 2019

Taunton said:
They were in fact every 30 minutes on the push-pull which started in May 1971. Queen Street to Haymarket was actually 38.5 minutes on the nonstops (and occasionally even a bit less!).

Does anyone know if Scotrail ever plans to introduce non-stop services again? When did the non-stop services stop?

London-York times before and after HS2

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