Train hits power line brought down by light aircraft at Abergavenny

PG · 12 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
The airport that seems the most perilously close to a railway that I'm aware of is Edinburgh Airport. Eeek... the railway passes directly between the approach landing lights. Somehow I suspect this will be a greater than normal obstacle to any proposed electrification of the line!

A (not good) reason to procure tri modes and have a wee bit of third rail electrification north of the border

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 12 May 2019

Deepgreen said:
Gatwick is close too, not surprisingly! Are we really now proposing separating rail and air to the extent that the already tiny risk is reduced very significantly further?! It is a practical impossibility under any feasible form of risk assessment. The incidence of road vehicles crashing onto/into trains has been significant - are we saying we should separate road and rail such that the twain can never meet? All this from a small plane not crashing onto a railway! A slow news day, perhaps.

Let's put it this way. If I were PIC I would feel a little uneasy doing an approach over a railway line. If winds permitted, I'd prefer an approach to a runway with a different alignment.

alistairlees · 12 May 2019

In 2008 a flight from Beijing to Heathrow crashed around 270m short of the runway, after the fuel iced up, causing a loss of power. That would only just have missed the railway line if it had been at Gatwick. So these things are worth considering how to mitigate.

Killingworth · 12 May 2019

Surprised nobody has brought up the 1989 Kegworth air disaster when a British Midland flight crashed on the M1 within a short distance of East Midlands airport killing 47, miraculously none on the M1.

The Tyne & Wear Metro runs within 200 metres of the western end of the runway, the B6918 even closer.

Highlandspring · 12 May 2019

Elecman said:
And Manchester where one of the mitigation’s is the trip wire system to automatically cut the OLE off and return all signals to zero, not sure if it has been linked into the GSMR system to send an emergency all stop broadcast though

Edinburgh and Prestwick airports also both have tripwires. They place and maintain signals to danger rather than “zero” though. There’s no link to GSM-R.

theironroad · 12 May 2019

Highlandspring said:
Edinburgh and Prestwick airports also both have tripwires. They place and maintain signals to danger rather than “zero” though. There’s no link to GSM-R.

Ditto Gatwick.

Elecman · 12 May 2019

Highlandspring said:
Edinburgh and Prestwick airports also both have tripwires. They place and maintain signals to danger rather than “zero” though. There’s no link to GSM-R.

‘Zero’ was autocorrect error now corrected to read red not zero

godfreycomplex · 13 May 2019

Greg Read said:
Non track circuit area, or axle counters, ? had there been 'real' track circuits in the location, then the signalman would have had a few go 'pop' on his panel and may have been able to warn the Driver (if far enough away !)

Non-track circuited absolute block section. As has been said, track circuits going “pop” is far from certain in these situations alas, although with bits of roughly wheel-sized metal landing on the rail it could be described as probable. Probably. Academic anyways.

Bromley boy · 13 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Let's put it this way. If I were PIC I would feel a little uneasy doing an approach over a railway line. If winds permitted, I'd prefer an approach to a runway with a different alignment.

I suggest you never fly into Peterborough (Conington), then. Short final to runway 28 is directly over the ECML!

deltic08 · 13 May 2019

Bromley boy said:
I suggest you never fly into Peterborough (Conington), then. Short final to runway 28 is directly over the ECML!

I can bid one better. The runway approach lights for 31 at RAF Alconbury were each side of the ECML with planes landing up to 170mph.

markindurham · 13 May 2019

RAF Woodvale also runs close to a railway - the Southport to Liverpool line, and at least one runway points towards the railway. Indeed, there is a parachute centre at Brunton, near Seahouses, which is right next to the ECML

Oh, and the approach to runway 24 at Teesside Airport - sorry, Durham Tees Valley - is across the Darlington to Middlesbrough line.

Still, it keeps the "Lets ban everything" brigade happy, griping on about things. Until, of course, one of their own hobbies/interests is threatened...

Running Pete · 13 May 2019

23R approach at Ringway (Manchester) crosses the airport line quite close to touch down.

2HAP · 13 May 2019

Killingworth said:
Surprised nobody has brought up the 1989 Kegworth air disaster when a British Midland flight crashed on the M1 within a short distance of East Midlands airport killing 47, miraculously none on the M1.

The Tyne & Wear Metro runs within 200 metres of the western end of the runway, the B6918 even closer.

You're getting East Midland and Newcastle airports confused.

2HAP · 13 May 2019

The bigger stuff does end up on a railway occasionally. A Handley Page Hermes overran the runway on landing at Southend on 9 October 1960 and ended up across the Shenfied - Southend line.

Killingworth · 13 May 2019

2HAP said:
You're getting East Midland and Newcastle airports confused.

I hope most will have read that as implied "The Tyne & Wear Metro runs within 200 metres of the western end of Newcastle Airport's runway, the B6918 even closer."

HaggisBotherer · 13 May 2019

Railway interest forum:

6Gman said:
It's always struck me that airstrips next to railways aren't entirely a good idea.

Road interest forum:

It's always struck me that airstrips next to roads aren't entirely a good idea.

Nautical interest forum:

It's always struck me that airstrips next to harbours aren't entirely a good idea.

Aviation interest forum:

It's always struck me that railways/roads/harbours next to airstrips aren't entirely a good idea.

All interest groups suffer from highly selective myopia. As has been said above, where does it end?

Lucan · 13 May 2019

I have worked with aircraft crash statistics, with the authority to make decisions about the use of airfields. Light aircraft have a far higher risk of crashing than large commercial aircraft, and the greatest crash risk of any aircraft is during the take off and landing phases.

While I would not generally advocate closing existing airfields because of location, I certainly would not have allowed a new one to be created close to a major road, railway, industry or housing. The Abergavenny location is particularly poor (if I understand it correctly) as it closely parallels a wide straight trunk road. I would not be so concerned about the railway as it is less busy and less likely to be chosen (or mistaken) for an emergency landing (as has happened with the road twice in the last three years). I do know that road, and it is fortunate that it is lightly used.

mpthomson · 13 May 2019

alistairlees said:
In 2008 a flight from Beijing to Heathrow crashed around 270m short of the runway, after the fuel iced up, causing a loss of power. That would only just have missed the railway line if it had been at Gatwick. So these things are worth considering how to mitigate.

I'm not sure why you think these risks aren't mitigated already. The fact remains that in terms of risk matrix coding these incidents don't score very highly, as they are so rare.

DarloRich · 13 May 2019

alistairlees said:
That would only just have missed the railway line if it had been at Gatwick. So these things are worth considering how to mitigate.

ALARP. The risk is so small as to be not worthy of great study or investment

hwl · 13 May 2019

mpthomson said:
I'm not sure why you think these risks aren't mitigated already. The fact remains that in terms of risk matrix coding these incidents don't score very highly, as they are so rare.

Partly mitigated by "Trip" wire sensor beside the railway lines and good comms between the control tower and Three Bridges

Ambient Sheep · 13 May 2019

Ploughman said:
See Google maps
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...69154df748!8m2!3d51.7647959!4d-2.852011?hl=en

Grass strip with markings visible on he North side of the A40

That link just takes me to the centre of Raglan, I'm afraid.

After some hunting around I found this:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...51.7921866,-2.9920297,19z/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
or alternatively:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gWXGSeQXwBsxfKd5A

...which would seem to be the right place from the various descriptions.

edwin_m · 13 May 2019

hwl said:
Partly mitigated by "Trip" wire sensor beside the railway lines and good comms between the control tower and Three Bridges

Yes, and I believe also there is a direct phone link between the control tower and the signaller (it was discussed on here a while back). So presumably if an approaching flight reports serious trouble there will often be time to stop the trains before it gets to the runway.

Jona26 · 13 May 2019

For a relatively minor airport Hawarden also his tripwires alongside the North Wales mainline.

Appreciate that some of the planes that use it are far from minor though!

Sunset route · 13 May 2019

hwl said:
Partly mitigated by "Trip" wire sensor beside the railway lines and good comms between the control tower and Three Bridges

edwin_m said:
Yes, and I believe also there is a direct phone link between the control tower and the signaller (it was discussed on here a while back). So presumably if an approaching flight reports serious trouble there will often be time to stop the trains before it gets to the runway.

The only time in 20yrs since I’ve worked in the ASC, is when the Virgin 747 had damaged nose gear and returned to Gatwick and the Control Tower and the Signaller on the panel coordinated really well and there was minimal delay to trains.

Train hits power line brought down by light aircraft at Abergavenny

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