Halton Curve upgrade is on

LNW-GW Joint · 7 May 2019

The TfW web site won't offer Liverpool-Shrewsbury through fares via Halton Curve after the timetable change, only the current routes via Hooton or Crewe.
If you insert "via Frodsham" you get "no tickets are available".
It remains to be seen what "Any Permitted" means.
As it stands at the moment, Liverpool-Birmingham is only £41 Off Peak Return, compared to Shrewsbury at £40.10, but the time restrictions are more severe.

RailUK Forums

Phil from Mon · 7 May 2019

craigybagel said:
The £40.10 fare is actually an Off Peak return - albeit with an 8A restriction meaning there are no time restrictions at all. According to BR fares there are no other fares in existence for Liverpool - Shrewsbury. You do end up with precisely £26.45 if you add a Railcard however.

Ah! Looks like it “remembered” me and put a railcard in automatically. Apologies for confusing you.

frodshamfella · 7 May 2019

Llandudno said:
Fairly straight forward change at Parkway.

Also when the service gets extended to Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff you can’t really be stopping at all the intermediate stations

That's true, it would at some point in the future be nice to see a station at Beechwood constructed on the curve. I think Halton Council were really after that.

sw1ller · 7 May 2019

childwallblues said:
It is a pity that the new service stops only at Liverpool South Parkway and not West Allerton and Mossley Hill.

I believe there’s already complaints from at least one other TOC that TfW are stopping at Runcorn. Wether this is to do with lost revenue or path timings I don’t know. But if it’s the latter, adding more stops won’t help at all.

LNW-GW Joint · 7 May 2019

At Runcorn, the new AW service runs 5 minutes behind an LM Birmingham service southbound (with the same stops from Liverpool), and 3 minutes in front of the hourly VT service northbound.
So that doesn't help spread the Runcorn-Liverpool service much, and there will be times when the trains interfere with each other.
In fact it's hard to see how the VT will not be impeded by the AW stop at Parkway (unless it is turned slow line, but that's not what RTT says).

driver_m · 7 May 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
At Runcorn, the new AW service runs 5 minutes behind an LM Birmingham service southbound (with the same stops from Liverpool), and 3 minutes in front of the hourly VT service northbound.
So that doesn't help spread the Runcorn-Liverpool service much, and there will be times when the trains interfere with each other.
In fact it's hard to see how the VT will not be impeded by the AW stop at Parkway (unless it is turned slow line, but that's not what RTT says).

The stopper will still be plonked in front of our services at Parkway (after the Welsh service) so it will be fine if it is running to time. So I can look forward to plenty of slow running into Lime St. Oh Joy.

Luke McDonnell · 10 May 2019

As the countdown to the new Halton Curve service begins I am just wondering what services ran on the Halton Curve in the past, what were the timings and the calling patterns I have read their was a regular service on the Halton Curve until the May 1975 timetable change how frequent was this, what was the calling pattern and destination - was it Liverpool LS - Chester? And after the change in 1975 I know their was a summer Saturday seasonal service Liverpool - Llandudno service - what was the calling pattern for this and how frequent was it - was it 1 return service on a Saturday? If anyone knows any timetables that will be appreciated. Did regular passenger services (everyday) end in 75 or was it earlier than that?

Regards,

Luke

Cheshire Rover · 10 May 2019

Luke McDonnell said:
As the countdown to the new Halton Curve service begins I am just wondering what services ran on the Halton Curve in the past, what were the timings and the calling patterns I have read their was a regular service on the Halton Curve until the May 1975 timetable change how frequent was this, what was the calling pattern and destination - was it Liverpool LS - Chester? And after the change in 1975 I know their was a summer Saturday seasonal service Liverpool - Llandudno service - what was the calling pattern for this and how frequent was it - was it 1 return service on a Saturday? If anyone knows any timetables that will be appreciated. Did regular passenger services (everyday) end in 75 or was it earlier than that?

Regards,

Luke

Not sure, but I have picked up this picture off the Helsby Memories Facebook page with the last service from Liverpool to Chester on May 5th 1975 waiting at Runcorn.

Matt_pool · 11 May 2019

driver_m said:
The stopper will still be plonked in front of our services at Parkway (after the Welsh service) so it will be fine if it is running to time. So I can look forward to plenty of slow running into Lime St. Oh Joy.

You know what else is going to suffer?

The Man Oxford Rd to Lime Street services operated by Northern that are often late getting into South Parkway due to late running trains ahead of them will get stuck to the back of the queue!

childwallblues · 11 May 2019

The MCO-LIV can run slow line past LPY.
Maybe common sense will rule and the Halton Curve services will end uo running slow line between Wavertree Junction and Ditton.

driver_m · 11 May 2019

childwallblues said:
The MCO-LIV can run slow line past LPY.
Maybe common sense will rule and the Halton Curve services will end uo running slow line between Wavertree Junction and Ditton.

You’d think so but there are time penalties using the down slow as there are a number of severe restrictive speeds even compared to the up slow. The 20 crossover at ditton, a 30 at Hale Bank, a 50 at the neutral section and a 30 at West Allerton on an otherwise 75mph line (the up is 75). Barring the curves at Speke, the Down Fast is 80

frodshamfella · 11 May 2019

Cheshire Rover said:
Not sure, but I have picked up this picture off the Helsby Memories Facebook page with the last service from Liverpool to Chester on May 5th 1975 waiting at Runcorn.

It still seems incredible to me that this was allowed to finished. Been a long fight getting the route back, so well done all those who campaigned so strongly and for so long.

Nice old photo btw.

frodshamfella · 11 May 2019

Matt_pool said:
You know what else is going to suffer?

The Man Oxford Rd to Lime Street services operated by Northern that are often late getting into South Parkway due to late running trains ahead of them will get stuck to the back of the queue!

But lets not moan about this, it's a good news story and investment for NW and Wales, which compared to London and SE is scant. Its most welcome as far as I'm concerned

LNW-GW Joint · 11 May 2019

Luke McDonnell said:
As the countdown to the new Halton Curve service begins I am just wondering what services ran on the Halton Curve in the past, what were the timings and the calling patterns I have read their was a regular service on the Halton Curve until the May 1975 timetable change how frequent was this, what was the calling pattern and destination - was it Liverpool LS - Chester? And after the change in 1975 I know their was a summer Saturday seasonal service Liverpool - Llandudno service - what was the calling pattern for this and how frequent was it - was it 1 return service on a Saturday? If anyone knows any timetables that will be appreciated. Did regular passenger services (everyday) end in 75 or was it earlier than that?
Regards,
Luke

I've got a winter 1958/59 LMR timetable, and it shows 12 trains via the Halton Curve, erratically spread through the day.
Mostly these are all-stations locals, several coming from Hooton/Birkenhead Woodside via Ellesmere Port (ie not from Chester).
There was a Llandudno-Liverpool in the morning peak, back to Holyhead in the evening.
Best journey time I can see is 56 minutes for a train not stopping between Runcorn and Liverpool, but usually 65-70 minutes.
A couple of overnight trains, probably mail/boat train portions.
Very thin on Sundays. Several extra trains to North Wales on summer Saturdays, places like Llandudno and Penychain (Butlin's, Pwllheli).
This was in steam days.
Diesels on local services started around 1961, but were rapidly thinned out from 1964 or so, as the suburban DMUs were instead sent on long regional services to replace steam stock (eg Manchester-North Wales).

Llandudno · 11 May 2019

After a lengthy 15 minute telephone conversation with a charming lady in India, (although I had to spell station name) I have had it verbally confirmed, although a little unconvincingly, that tickets from North Wales Coast stations to Liverpool Lime Street are valid via Runcorn as well as the current Merseyrail service via Hooton.

It is a shame that TfW Website and Journey Planner states that there are no tickets available for this journey, via Runcorn. Indeed the TfW Twitter team didn’t know the answer and suggested I phone National Rail enquires call centre (India!)

Sorry, I am not geeky enough to know how to screenshot and post the relevant section of the TfW website or Twitter thread!

The Prisoner · 13 May 2019

Chester to Liverpool Off Peak Day Return is showing as £6 via TfW/Runcorn for the new service. Their website fare finder wrongly states that this is the "cheapest" - a Merseyrail All Zone Day Saver (which would take me from Chester to Liverpool, Ormskirk or Southport if I wanted - anywhere on the Wirral or Northern Line) is £5.30 according to Merseyrail's website.

Have found myself stopping people at the vending machines at Chester from just typing Liverpool in as a destination (will sell you an anytime day return for £7.50) and showing them to type "ME D" which then populates the ME DAY SAVER £5.30 ticket. In all fairness Chester station has now stuck stickers on the machines telling people travelling to Liverpool what to do to get the cheap ME ticket, but what if you have bought online in advance? Must be a way to show the Day Saver on the matrix of fares so people can buy the cheapest......

Yes it is only 70p (TfW) or £2.20 (anytime day return) overspent, but how many per day do it?

driver_m · 13 May 2019

The Prisoner said:
Chester to Liverpool Off Peak Day Return is showing as £6 via TfW/Runcorn for the new service. Their website fare finder wrongly states that this is the "cheapest" - a Merseyrail All Zone Day Saver (which would take me from Chester to Liverpool, Ormskirk or Southport if I wanted - anywhere on the Wirral or Northern Line) is £5.30 according to Merseyrail's website.

Have found myself stopping people at the vending machines at Chester from just typing Liverpool in as a destination (will sell you an anytime day return for £7.50) and showing them to type "ME D" which then populates the ME DAY SAVER £5.30 ticket. In all fairness Chester station has now stuck stickers on the machines telling people travelling to Liverpool what to do to get the cheap ME ticket, but what if you have bought online in advance? Must be a way to show the Day Saver on the matrix of fares so people can buy the cheapest......

Yes it is only 70p (TfW) or £2.20 (anytime day return) overspent, but how many per day do it?

That’s a whole world of trouble with tickets. Doesn’t this forum have a section just for dealing with tickets and whatnot? Probably the same with just about every route with more than one way of travelling by train isn’t it? Glad I don’t have to deal with tickets at times, and this would be one of those times!

Matt_pool · 13 May 2019

The Prisoner said:
Chester to Liverpool Off Peak Day Return is showing as £6 via TfW/Runcorn for the new service. Their website fare finder wrongly states that this is the "cheapest" - a Merseyrail All Zone Day Saver (which would take me from Chester to Liverpool, Ormskirk or Southport if I wanted - anywhere on the Wirral or Northern Line) is £5.30 according to Merseyrail's website.

Have found myself stopping people at the vending machines at Chester from just typing Liverpool in as a destination (will sell you an anytime day return for £7.50) and showing them to type "ME D" which then populates the ME DAY SAVER £5.30 ticket. In all fairness Chester station has now stuck stickers on the machines telling people travelling to Liverpool what to do to get the cheap ME ticket, but what if you have bought online in advance? Must be a way to show the Day Saver on the matrix of fares so people can buy the cheapest......

Yes it is only 70p (TfW) or £2.20 (anytime day return) overspent, but how many per day do it?

That's interesting to know about typing in "ME D". But can you also buy a Merseytravel ALL Zone Saveaway from a ticket machine?

I once spent ages trying to buy one from a ticket machine, I think at Lime Street lower level. I spent ages scrolling through every option, then gave up and bought one from the ticket office!

On another occasion I was at Liverpool Central, went to the ticket office and asked for a return to Chester. I just expected the guy to sell me a Day Saver, but he quoted the price for an Anytime return (currently £7.80). He had to get someone else over to show him where to find the Day Saver. Goodness knows how many other people he had overcharged.

Also, I'm not sure how well advertised this new TfW service is. Are people in Liverpool just going to automatically go to Lime Street lower level or Liverpool Central to catch the train to Chester, and are people at Chester going to automatically go to platform 7 to catch a train to Liverpool?

I know the TfW service is only hourly compared to 4 an hour with Merseyrail, but my go to train would be the TfW service, mainly to avoid the most boring, unscenic railway line in the UK through the Wirral!

M28361M · 13 May 2019

Matt_pool said:
That's interesting to know about typing in "ME D". But can you also buy a Merseytravel ALL Zone Saveaway from a ticket machine?

No. Saveaways have never been available from any ticket vending machine as far as I know.

Also, I'm not sure how well advertised this new TfW service is. Are people in Liverpool just going to automatically go to Lime Street lower level or Liverpool Central to catch the train to Chester, and are people at Chester going to automatically go to platform 7 to catch a train to Liverpool?

I suspect at Liverpool most people will go to the Wirral Line out of habit. The Merseyrail service is more frequent and serves more parts of Liverpool city centre via the Loop, so I daresay many people will stick with it anyway.

The real purpose for this service is not the end-to-end Liverpool to Chester journey but new and improved journey opportunities to other points along the route, such as Chester to Liverpool South Parkway (a 33 minute journey on the new train compared to 1hr 15 with a change now), and a new link from Frodsham/Helsby to Liverpool.

The Prisoner · 13 May 2019

The Merseyrail service also goes from platform 7. Assume the new TfW will go from 5 or 6 (with exception of the Wrexham through trains).

Having a loo on board is probably the best reason to chose TfW too!!!

Matt_pool said:
Also, I'm not sure how well advertised this new TfW service is. Are people in Liverpool just going to automatically go to Lime Street lower level or Liverpool Central to catch the train to Chester, and are people at Chester going to automatically go to platform 7 to catch a train to Liverpool?

I know the TfW service is only hourly compared to 4 an hour with Merseyrail, but my go to train would be the TfW service, mainly to avoid the most boring, unscenic railway line in the UK through the Wirral!

Bletchleyite · 13 May 2019

The real gain will be the direct service to/from North Wales once that starts.

theshillito · 13 May 2019

The best promotion for this service would be pretending the destination is Liverpool South Parkway at Chester. Then, people wanting to go through to Liverpool itself will get on the Merseyrail service, while those wanting the intermediate stops will use the TfW one (a bit like the Overground at Watford Junction advertising Euston services as only going to Harrow and Wealdstone).

The Prisoner · 13 May 2019

theshillito said:
The best promotion for this service would be pretending the destination is Liverpool South Parkway at Chester. Then, people wanting to go through to Liverpool itself will get on the Merseyrail service, while those wanting the intermediate stops will use the TfW one (a bit like the Overground at Watford Junction advertising Euston services as only going to Harrow and Wealdstone).

I think there will be no shortage of punters wanting to use it from Chester all the way through largely because it has a loo and doesn't stop every three minutes.....

theshillito · 13 May 2019

The Prisoner said:
doesn't stop every three minutes

This is a fair point. Even though the Merseyrail service is quicker, it feels slower because of how often it stops (makes me wonder how quick an express train would be on Merseyrail, were capacity not an issue)

The Prisoner · 13 May 2019

theshillito said:
This is a fair point. Even though the Merseyrail service is quicker, it feels slower because of how often it stops (makes me wonder how quick an express train would be on Merseyrail, were capacity not an issue)

ME quite often does a "fast" with the Chester services running non-stop from Birkenhead Central to Hooton to restore the service in times of disruption and it knocks around 10 minutes off the journey.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 May 2019

Then there's the Saveaway which is £5.40 for all zones after 0930 (includes Merseyside buses and ferries).
But it is only issued on a Walrus card.
Won't be valid via Runcorn (valid from Chester to Parkway via Wirral and Liverpool).
Neither Saveaway nor Daysaver have railcard discounts (they are Merseytravel products).
Complicated.

Matt_pool · 13 May 2019

I suppose one problem facing commuters from Liverpool to Chester is that they wouldn't be able to use their Merseytravel Railpass or Trio ticket on the TfW service.

But saying that, I've been surprised at how many commuters I have seen in Liverpool over the years who don't have a pass of any kind and buy a train or bus ticket every day!

Matt_pool · 13 May 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Then there's the Saveaway which is £5.40 for all zones after 0930 (includes Merseyside buses and ferries).
But it is only issued on a Walrus card.
Won't be valid via Runcorn (valid from Chester to Parkway via Wirral and Liverpool).
Neither Saveaway nor Daysaver have railcard discounts (they are Merseytravel products).
Complicated.

You can buy an All Area Saveaway from any station ticket office on Merseyside, and also in Chester. It's just printed on a normal train ticket. You don't need a Walrus card.

urbophile · 13 May 2019

Matt_pool said:
You can buy an All Area Saveaway from any station ticket office on Merseyside, and also in Chester. It's just printed on a normal train ticket. You don't need a Walrus card.

I hesitate to contradict because having an aged person's pass I never need to buy a Saveaway. But I could swear I have seen notices at stations saying that Saveaway tickets are only now available on a Walrus card. You are right that they used to be printed on normal orange tickets.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 May 2019

David Emmott said:
I hesitate to contradict because having an aged person's pass I never need to buy a Saveaway. But I could swear I have seen notices at stations saying that Saveaway tickets are only now available on a Walrus card. You are right that they used to be printed on normal orange tickets.

I had to get one on Walrus at Hooton recently.

Halton Curve upgrade is on

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